I dont mean by wilhulf, i know from OWK.net that everyone their was civil and polite..

wardz

Originally posted by Vagabond:
<STRONG>Seriuosly though, surley the relationship between Kyle and Jan will progress or change in some fashion. I mean, The Empire Strikes Back, argued by many to be the best Star Wars movie, had a love story in it - between Han and Leia - it wasn't the focus of the movie, but it was there and it helped to progress the story. I just think something interesting should happen there. It doesn't have to be her going to the dark side, it doesn't have to be a love story, but something compelling would help pull you into the story.

Does anyone have any interesting ideas they'd like to share about this? Ideas not involving the Rhyming Family clans? ;)</STRONG>

Yeah, I think you're right that the love story angle should be kept simmering in the background. It certainly shouldn't detract too much from the rest of the game. At the same time, the central story must be compelling.

Taking ESB as the example again, the plot in that film revolved mostly around Luke, and his confrontation with his father Vader. Luke had to come to terms with his origins, and Vader started the long arduous crawl back into the Light - or he would have killed his son without a thought. And, of course, Luke really began to learn how to become a Jedi. On the face of it, that doesn't seem like a compelling story, but it was the way in which it was told that captured the imagination.

What I'm trying to say is, there need not be a complex plotline to make JKII into a good game. On the other hand, I too would like to see some real substance to the storyline. If it was on a par with JK, that would probably be enough - especially if told through more scripted events, and interaction with NPCs.

As stated earlier, Lucasarts have not given Raven a very long development time for JKII, and bearing this in mind, I hope they will focus on fine-tuning the gameplay. The story has to be solid, although it could be simple, and I agree that the key villain at the very least should have some real depth.

We hated (or loved) Vader because he killed in one of his very first scenes. He kept on killing. Maul was weaker because we only ever saw him kill one person - Qui-Gon. He had no history of Evil for us to use as a reference point - and if anything, has become an even more popular character as a result because he had a cool lightsaber, flash moves, and a neat tattoo.

JKII's arch-villain should have a history of conflict and death. His/her path should be littered with corpses - and this should be made known up front, IMO, as it was with Vader. If we cannot see them killing in a cut scene, we should at least hear about some major catastrophe caused by them which has killed a great many.

Otherwise what is the compulsion to rid the universe of their foul stench?


As for the three books based on Dark Forces, you should definitely read them Vagabond. They add quite a bit to the original story, and show some insights into Kyle's father, Kyle's time as an Imperial, and Jan and Kyle's relationship. They also have some pretty cool art inside. ;)

JKII's arch-villain should have a history of conflict and death. His/her path should be littered with corpses - and this should be made known up front, IMO, as it was with Vader.

This is Grand Admiral Thrawn.

Wilhuf... :D

Thrawn was a great villain, I agree, but we've already had stories about him. I'm not so sure that he should reappear in JKII.

For me, part of the attraction of the Dark Forces series has been following the story of a new central character (Kyle), and tackling new threats to the universe. through him. You didn't really know which wat the story was going in JK, because it was original, with original characters.

With Thrawn we already have preconceptions. We know that he is a master strategist, a plotter, a tactician, and an art lover. We know some of what makes Thrawn tick, and therefore some of the unpredictability of the story is lost. For example, if you entered a chamber that contained Thrawn, the first thing you would probably do as a Force user is look for Ysalimiri...or Noghri.

With completely new characters, you should have no preconceptions, and have no idea of the feats of which they are capable. That forms part of the enjoyment for me.

This is why I sometimes get a little tired of the EU, because the writers keep returning to the core characters seen in the films. Although it is interesting to see how they develop over time, sometimes it feels more like immersing yourself in a TV soap (a genre I do not enjoy).

By the same token, I think mistakes have been made in the EU by introducing some totally radical concepts which would probably be more suited to Star Trek, and a quest for even bigger and badder weapons than the Death Star, some of which seemed out of place.

Sometimes it is useful to return to basics, and just tell a human story. A story about the struggle of the few against the might of the many, and the sacrifices they must make to succeed. Although such a story could be told in the context of a Thrawn scenario, there is still the problem that Thrawn is not a new character, and that we would have preconceptions about that character.

A new villain, with new tactics, new powers, new allies, would be fundamentally more interesting due to all of the unknown factors, IMHO. ;)

The only true constant in the Dark Forces saga should be Kyle Katarn, because the series tells his individual story. I would even have to say that Jan could be expendable - although, in another way, I've come to think of her in a similar way to Wedge Antilles. A survivor. Someone who faces trials by fire, yet somehow, somehow manages to come through those trials.

Just a thought.

Wilhuf, isn't Thrawn pretty much unknown until he shows up in Heir to the Empire? If Kyle confronts him now, then Kyle would have to be killed. If he survived, he'd obviously alert the New Republic about Thrawn's existence. Even though it would be neat to have Thrawn as the mastermind behind the Dark Jedi, I think Raven could run into some continuity problems if they take that path.

But I agree with StormHammer, the villain must be very strong - there must be a history and a compelling reason to hate, love, or otherwise relate to him. Whether it's by him hurting many unknown people, or hurting a few people close Kyle, he has to be clearly evil. Of course, this risks appearing cliche, but hey, this is a game about good and evil, so some of that's unavoidable.

Oh, and Storm,


I would even have to say that Jan could be expendable - although, in another way, I've come to think of her in a similar way to Wedge Antilles. A survivor. Someone who faces trials by fire, yet somehow, somehow manages to come through those trials.


Nicely said. To me, Wedge represents the hero of the common man. And while he avoids the spotlight, preferring to take a supporting role, this man of modest means has nonetheless achieved greatness, thus commanding our respect and admiration.

Regarding Jan, if she were to die, I would prefer her death be appropriatley meaningful, and not handled in a casual way. She is a well-liked character, after all.

Speaking for myself, I'd like to see her prominence elevated in JKII. This could lead to a spin-off of Jan Ors games, or even more JK games.

[ June 13, 2001: Message edited by: Vagabond ]

The thing that made Maul and bit laughable was the fact that he was seen as a thick henchman who couldn't think...

Vader was scary because he was intelligent and calcualting - Luring Luke to bespin via Leia and Han.

Maul looked stupid because despite being a very good saberist or whatever word you want, Vader looked like he talked back to Palpatine and had some control over his actions where as Maul looked like the Emporer's lapdog.

A villain has to be IMO a flawed genius or something like it. Someone who promised so much yet never quite made it, like Skywalker who had exceptional talent but could not control it...

Anyone else agree?

wardz

wardz, yes, a good villain should be intelligent. I mean, you can still have a dumb villain, like Maul was, but you don't really hate him. I have to admit that part of me felt sympathy for Maul because it seemed like he was so naive that he didn't realize he was being taken advantage of.

Smarter villains, while not necessarily strong, are more dangerous, in my opinion. Darth Vader, the Emperor, and Grand Admiral Thrawn - all were intelligent, some of them frighteningly so.

Vader, he seemed more coniving with a good dose of brute strength to go along with his prowess in the Force. Not necessarily a genius, but definitely not one of the dull tools in the shed either.

The Emperor, he was a highly intelligent, and incredibly strong with the Force. That, combined with his unlimited arrogance made him one of my favorite villains of all time. But as we all know, his over-confidence was also the weakness that helped bring about his downfall.

Grand Admiral Thrawn is by far the last person I want to face in a space battle. An enemy finding out they were facing Thrawn would likely demoralize their entire force. Again, though, he knew he was a genius and this created a false sense of safety for him. I found it very interesting that he relished the surprise of the Nogrhi assasin that killed him - he admired the fact that he had been outsmarted, and this made me like him as a villain even more.

I guess to summarize, in my opinion, a villain has to have some aspect about them that makes them seem dangerous. It can be brute strength, power, intelligence, experience, history, etc. I think a villain is more interesting when he/she is a combination of the above, and when there personality of that villain is fleshed out in exquisite detail :cool:

Yeah,

I could empathise with Darth Maul, he was never gonna win, at least with Vader you could sense he was powerful (and had a chance of winning) - like you said he killed someone immediately which added to the threat.

Palpatine was good because he had to use his mind more than his body because he was so crippled by the force - yet at the same time it gave him that power, its like a vicious circle...


A good villain must have intelligence, a GOOD motive like betrayal, revenge. Taking over the universe is wearing a bit thin in general - but it CAN still be done well...


wardz

speaking of mara facing kyle in MOTS, i must have sat there for a good hour trying to kill kyle :)

it was only when i gave up and put away my lightsaber that i realised thats how you beat the idiot hehehe

i was so bloody angry.....

What exactly is the galactic plumberman alliance?

The idea of a conniving military mastermind, manipulating a cadre of paranoid Dark Jedi to further his own agenda sounds entertaining. Just the back and forth between Thrawn and his Jedi cadre, the empty promises, the manipulated rivalries, the pitting of one against the other, would be a good backstory. Thrawn is the worthy adversary we seek.

If Jedi Outcast occurs after Vision of the Future, Thrawn would be long gone. So there's really no way Thrawn could be an enemy if the story were to be consistent with the Zahn novel. Guess we're stuck with Ann and Lyle. ;)

Sorry, didn't mean to sound rude. When I said that was good sarcasm, I wasn't refering to a relationship between Jan and Kyle, I was refering to the weird Jan's bother/identical twin plots and what not :) it was getting a bit strange and convoluted for my tastes, but maybe that's just me. I'm a Spider-Man fan and five years ago they did a lot of convoluted things with Spidey and clones ::shivers run up my spine:: I'd rather not go back there. lol

As far as my oppinions about Kyle and Jan go, yes I definately see a potential relationship there, but I don't think it's anything the upcoming game needs to focus on. And I like Jan a lot more than Mara Jade. Besides, once you have two characters express their feelings about each other, you lose all of the tension. That's why you usually never see the big kiss till the end of the movie.

I think someone brought this up earlier, but if you want some good insights into the relationship between Jan and Kyle, pick up the first book, Soldier for the empire. It's actually a quality read. It's about Kyle during his imperial days as a young cadet, I highly reccomend it for any DF/JK fan. However, don't bother with the next two books, you're really better off just playing Jedi Knight again.

matt- never u mind :)


wilhuf, you can answer that question if you wish...

Ok, this is either going to be a brilliant post, or long series of silly ideas, I'm really not sure...

I was just brainstorming on the whole villian thing, and I think I came up with a neat idea of who the villian should be, and there are several factors for my choice...

A. the villian needs to be a dark jedi. In a game about a Jedi knight, an evil Jedi makes for the perfect foil. Also, admit it, if this game doesn't end with a dramatic saber battle,on some level it'll be dissapointing.

B. We need to hate the villian because of some history of evil, and they need to have a good motivation for being evil.

C. There needs to be a darned good reason for Kyle to come out of retirement and risk fallling to the darkside. If it were just any old bad guy with a take over the galaxy scheme, Luke would take care of it, why should Kyle get involved?

I've mulled all of these things over, and I've come up with.... Saris from JK!! Why??

Well obviously, she's a dark Jedi. That fits requirement one.

Being that she's a villian from JK (Jerek's right hand girl), we have a history with Saris. She's tried to corrupt Kyle to the dark side before, she could try to do so again.

And as far as motive? being that Kyle nearly killed her in battle, (I'm figuring we can say she survived somehow) she'd have adequate motive for revenge. Hell, give her a big scar across her face/chest from her battle with Kyle, and that doubles the need for revenge.

Ok, now here's where I really get fancy and where I tie things neatly into the topic for this post, and also where I start worrying if it's getting too silly...

Kyle needs to have adequate motive for coming out of retierment, right? Here I go... Now that we know Jan's in the game, everyone's speculating on wether or not they should hook up. Wellll this does take place 4 - 5 years after JK, what if... Kyle and Jan have already hooked up. Kyle settles down for a nice quiet life with Jan back on sullust on his father's farm and started a family. Saris, recouperated, sees the time is ripe for revenge. In an opening cutscene Saris (who we see has scars across her face) and some troops bust into the Katarn farm destroying equipment, and furniture. Catching him off guard she could kick Kyle around a bit (very good for making her seem tough, and even more powerful) Then she either...

A. kills Kyle's family, leaving him alive just so he can suffer, and giving him some great motive to get back into gear and getting some revenge himself. His need for revenge could play on a theme of Kyle being on the verge of falling to the darkside. The only reason I don't go ith this option is because I'm rather fond of Jan :) butt never fear, there's also...

B. or, in getting revenge, knowing he'll likely grow to be strong in the force, she kidnaps Kyle's young child in hopes of raising him to be her dark jedi apprentice. (them Dark Jedi just love having somebody to mold in their image) this also gives Kyle adequate motive to get back into the Jedi gig. The only flaw I see, is why wouldn't Saris just kill him then and their. Maybe a last minute escape with Jan??

I know, long post, I'm sorry :) what do you think??

The only flaw I see, is why wouldn't Saris just kill him then and their.


Probably the same reason that the villain always tells the captured good-guy how he commited all these terrible crimes, just before the bad-guy gets arrested ;)

I'll have more comment on your post a little later, but let me just say quickly that I think your ideas, as with many in this entire thread, are very interesting.

As is relevent to what The Wanderer said, I like the ideas but I dont really agree with the Kyle settles down scenario. I know he has grown older but he's still reasonably young and in the universe he lives in, fraught with danger, as it is I dont think he would have settled down just yet.


That and I would prefer to pick up as Kyle an "outcast", so to speak, a person people talk of simply as "The Wanderer" perhaps? A nomadic soul, a "Vagabond" of sorts. Peoplke think he's quite "Wilhuf".... wait a sec, that last on doesnt really work. Hmmm perhaps I could turn that into a saying, Man that dude is really Wilhuf... Perhaps not.


Anyway, onto topics of a more relevent nature. Saris is good villian (assuming we say she lived), apart from one thing. She never really stood out, granted she was evil and played with Kyle but she just didnt have the qualities IMHO of a reoccuring villian. Perhaps if she made a surprise and totally unannonced entrance to get revenge, leaving the player going WOW I didnt think I'd see her again, it would be quite satisfing to finish the battle, but as the main evil doer, perhaps its just me but I cant see it. I think it is in Raven's best interest to create a new villian. Not only with this comes surprise, wonder and stary eyed amazement on the behalf of us, the gamer. But also with the appropriate back story, which we dont see just read, and the more pivotal story which we see and are submerged in, it would be quite easy for Raven to bring into being a villian we despise yet is mysterious and original.


As for why Kyle comes out of retirement? Well its quite easy to bring the action to Kyle, as you suggested with the idea about his family. I would prefer it was to happen through other means though. I do like you idea about his child being kidnapped, as other people have speculated about friends/brothers/sister/children getting in trouble all through this post. And in one case someone was brilliant enough to put all these people into one storyline. Any guesses Who? The reason I like this is because to really get the player disliking the villian and really interest them there most likely will have to be some personal issues of some kind, otherwise there is the risk we will feel disconnected and can will not relate to him.

A story that is more personal to Kyle would probably make a good deal of sense, Wanderer.

As we know, Kyle has forsaken the Force for fear of turning to the Dark Side. He would need a powerful motive to return to the life of a Jedi. As someone else asked previously, why isn't Luke or the Jedi from his academy taking care of this particular problem?

The only reason I can think of is that the new threat has ties to Kyle's past in some fashion, and he decides that he must confront his past without Luke's assistance.

Or, if there are no ties to his past, then perhaps the threat becomes more personal - as you suggested, a member of his family is killed or taken, and so he undertakes a quest either for revenge or for the salvation of whoever was taken. Of course, if it is revenge, there is the danger of him turning to the Dark Side once more... :)

The Wanderer, the idea about Kyle's child being taken with the intention of turning him to the dark side is very interesting. It falls within the tradition of Star Wars. Even Vader said that Obi-Wan was wise to hide Luke and Leia from him, the implied threat being that they would have been easy to turn to the dark side at an early age.

StormHammer, I agree, there must be a huge motivation for Kyle to risk turning himself to the dark side. His child being captured could easily do it. So would his devotion to any imperiled friends or loved ones.

Could it also be his sense of responsibility? Perhaps a past student of his has turned to the dark side, and now he reluctantly feels it is his duty to confront his fallen student and either bring him back to the light, or destroy him. It's a task that he despises, yet knows that he alone, as the student's master, must deal with it. If so, then who would the student be? Someone old? Someone new? Someone borrowed? Someone blue?

;)

ooooooh, I say someone blue, we haven't seen any blue star wars aliens in awhile.

in any case, I'm really not so picky on what the story to JO is, so long as it's told well and makes sence. all really that matters is the quality level.

yeah, perhaps this evil person has developed a machine that harnesses the force, but it has to be taken from young people, so he kidnaps kyle's kid/kids, and buggers off to hook them up to this de-juicing machine to suck their force :)

far fetched? you bet it is!

What if Jan had been a Dark Jedi all along, right under Kyle's nose? Maybe all the previous material in the games was her attempt to currpt Kyle - she'd been working with Jeric and them threatening Jan was just a ploy? Probably not, but that idea has a bit of promise.

brings a new meaning to 'sleeping with the enemy'

Ok, so Thrawn hires Sarris to kidnap Kyle Jr. to suck the jedi juice out of him. HOW will they get a teen rating on THAT? Sounds a bit Wilhuf to me. ;)

Seriously though, I like the kidnapping idea. It's completely consistent with the whole 'turn to the dark side, family feud' Star Wars theme.

Now, Luke turns away from the Force because he doesn't want it to be a 'crutch,' or unfair advantage. So, perhaps Kyle has the same attitude. He simply settles down with his family for a quiet life on Sulon.

BTW another option is that Sarris kills Kyle's son. First Kyle loses his father, and now his son. The sorrow and the pity. So Kyle gets back on the revenge trail, and is ready to suck the life out of Sarris.

Or perhaps Kyle (played by Jason Priestly) has a son with Sarris (played by Barbara Streisand), and this of course angers Jan (Kyle's wife, played by Michelle Yeoh). So Jan kills Kyle Jr. (Adam Sandler) and Sarris gets medieval on Jan. Kyle simply watches the melee, shouting out 'REEEOWWR!! CAT FIGHT!!'

That's a bit to Wihufian for my tastes. BTW in the light side path in JK do they heavily imply that Yun died a light-side Jedi or not, I missed that cut-scene(stupid phone call). Then again who's to say that Yun died, so we have Yun(played by Chow Yun Fat) and the new Kyle(played by Jet Li)busting out fat moves against the villian of the piece the evil Wookie Dark Jedi Spewbacca who's holding Jan Ors(played by Michelle Yeoh)in his secret base on(insert Planet name here). So Yun and Kyle go off to rescue him.Better yet scratch the Wookie, the evil Jedi is played by Keanu Reeves who dresses in shirt,tie and long coat type deal.And don't forget that the Dark Jedi will be fast, insert shot of Yun and Kyle emptying the blasters at dark Jedi (start bullet time)who dodges with ease their blasts of energy(stop bullet time), oh yeah that's the ticket.

[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Prefect ]

Ummm.... Nothing to see here.. move along.

[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Syndrix ]

Kyle has a kid? Man I guess i should start reading the books again. Whos the mother? or is the kid just an idea? :eek:

did i mention obi-wan will always be the greatest jedi to ever live?

the kid was just an idea :)

I wonder if Jan is force-sensitive? Wouldn't it be cool if she was training at the Jedi Academy on Yavin IV? Jan and Kyle could be like Luke and Mara.

if Jan was force sensitive, that would be too much, we have too many main char. force sensitive already, i mean, i though Kyle being a Jedi was a little over the top (but george is good for over the top stuff (not the Sly movie)) cause we have Mara, and Corrin Horn (the pilot from the x-wing novels), and umm, well, im sure there is more, but still, what are the chances that two friends are both force-sensitive. i though it was suppsoed to be a rare thing. well, anyway, thats my two or three cents...

Ya, I tend to agree. I was just brain-storming about different possibile relationships between Kyle and Jan.

Oh, here's a new one. What if Jan were Kyle's daughter? He could conceivably be old enough to be her father. That would explain their love for each other.

In any event, Jan appears to be in her prime child-bearing years, so she's going to need to hook up with a man if she ever hopes to have offspring. Some interesting relationship dynamics could come into play here between Kyle and Jan, regardless of whether they are father/daughter, lovers, brother/sister, friends, etc.

[ June 28, 2001: Message edited by: Vagabond ]

If Jan needs some help child bearing, I'll gladly step in. :D

I don't really want another bro and sis thing going though, thats just too much of a coincidence..

wardz

Yes, I suppose the brother/sister thing would be a bit over-used for Star Wars, not unlike how both The Phantom Menace and Return of the Jedi ended with:

1. Goofy Aliens battling the bad-guy army on the planet below.

2. A space battle raging overhead.

3. A lightsaber duel between good-guys and bad-guys going on nearby.

But back to Jan, she will probably be wanting to have children soon, so I wonder who it will be, if anyone at all? Kyle would be the most logical candidate, but I think it would be more interesting if it were someone else. Kyle, regardless of how he views Jan, would feel some measure of jealousy. It's only natural. This could be very interesting, story-wise.

Yeah, V

Yhat would be interesting if someone else did the biz with Jan and he got royally pissed off, but he couldn't do anything as it would jepordise their close friendship.

wardz

She should get married to the villian. How's that for conflict!

So, Jan would give birth to the future anti-Jedi, and potential threat to the Republic. Hmmmm....

[ June 29, 2001: Message edited by: Vagabond ]

Say, at E3 did they mention wether or not they had already hammered out most, some, or all of the plot yet???

I believe the have a high-level idea of where the plot's going.

Say, seeing that this topic is partly about Jan, what happened to her at the end of JK
( remember, I sold my copy before the expansion came out and before I even finished it )?

:D

Child-bearing? Bah, who needs it when you can make thousands of insane clones of yourself and rule the galaxy, bwahahahahaha!!!!!

Sorry, I think I was possessed by Dr. Doom for a second there. ; p

Kurgan

There there kurgs, have you taken your medication today? *someone get the horse tranquilisers!* :)

wardz

Thanks for the reminder, the world has stopped spinning and the flying pixies have all quieted down. ; )

Here's an idea, anybody seen Highlander: Endgame? I won't get into how much the movie rocked/sucked, but perhaps some of the plot in that movie could be adapted and might work better in JK2 than it did in that film.

How about the idea of the hero, afraid of his inner darkness, going to some sort of Sanctuary where Force sensitives go to "hide out" for awhile, from the Dark Side (or it could be a remnant safe-house for Jedi during the purges) to be lost in meditation (or drugged to "escape" from his demons). He'd be having fitful dreams, etc, and hallucinations, then wake up, because....

The evil Dark Jedi person discovers the secret Sanctuary with his posse of thugs/disciples, and starts killing the other Jedi there, leaving only Kyle left.

Why? Because this Jedi is angry with Kyle. Tie this in with Kyle's Imperial Days. How many people do you think Kyle hurt/killed while he was with the Empire? And when he switched sides, how many of his former colleuges/friends did he have to harm/kill?

Just pick somebody, a former classmate at the academy, roommate, teacher, former rival, etc. Or some innocent victim caught between. Someone who was later found to have force abilities.

Anyhow, so this guy is trying to dedicated himself to ruining Kyle's life, and so he wants to make him suffer.

Tie this in with trying to capture/kill Jan, Mara and Luke and whomever else he loves. Maybe tie in something with his father's death (like this guy took part in the mission or something). So the Dark Jedi has had an axe to grind for years... and what better reason to be evil than because he feels that Kyle ruined HIS life somehow?

Just another idea...

Kurgan

going to some sort of Sanctuary where Force sensitives go to "hide out" for awhile

Like a jedi rehab type place?

I like that idea... It would be nice to see kyle become some sort of recluse, drunk and on the edge. Then he has some sort of incentive to come out of retirement (a la kurgan's idea), then he becomes new Kyle! He gets himself back into shape ready to kick some preverbial butt!

wardz

The game should start with an assassination attempt on Kyle. He doesn't know why or who sent the opperative, but he knows his life is in danger, and so he begins his quest for knowledge and justice, finding on the way, how deep the villian's plan really is...a new threat to the galaxy.