For me, it's a careful "yes". Once I detached TOR from the KotOR games, I could see myself playing the game. I'm still a little wary, and I'll probably wait some time after its release to decide if I'm going to buy it, but I've always wanted to play a Star Wars MMO and TOR seems to be the best option for that.

Nay for me.

Define the MMO style of gameplay. There are several different variations.

Are there? I was convinced that all mmos have really bad rpg combat systems.

There are single player exceptions like Mass Effect but utilizing something like that would been too radical for Bioware and your typical mmo player of course.

Not to mention difficult.

Not to mention difficult.

Exactly. It's awful when players who actually bother to get good at a game have the benefit of skill when playing!

Honestly, i'm convinced these mmos were made so people who can't play computer games normally can have a genre where they feel just as capable as any other person.

I'm impressed this thread is still hanging on so near and close to the release of TOR.

Exactly. It's awful when players who actually bother to get good at a game have the benefit of skill when playing!

Honestly, i'm convinced these mmos were made so people who can't play computer games normally can have a genre where they feel just as capable as any other person.

Eh? You seem to be going back and forth a bit...Let's see if I understand...

What's so wrong with an occasional something which everyone can enjoy and do well at regardless of skill or effort? It is about amusement, no? Something that everyone can enjoy regardless of gaming expertise?
Conversely what is so wrong with meritocracy in some games?

What's so wrong with an occasional something which everyone can enjoy and do well at regardless of skill or effort? It is about amusement, no? Something that everyone can enjoy regardless of gaming expertise?


Well that's one way of putting it. At the end of the day i'd have to agree with you that it is about having fun.

Conversely what is so wrong with meritocracy in some games?

I'll try explain what I mean better here.
Nothings wrong with things being based on merit however that not what happens in mmorpgs. It's about leveling up your character and what items you wear, these are the only things that determine how good your character will be.

Basically, i've been hoping for a while now that someone would change things up a bit in an mmo. For a brief moment I thought Bioware were going to break the norm and deliver a unique mmo but that was me being overly optimistic.

Simply put: If they had lightsabers in WoW there'd be little difference between these games.

Simply put: If they had lightsabers in WoW there'd be little difference between these games.

Except the gameplay, Voice acting, story, companions, ships, space combat, and STORY!

I'll be honest, I tried WoW, and didn't like it. TOR isn't like WoW from any of the gameplay footage I've seen. And Bioware has made sure that there are 8 unique stories. EIGHT! Plus the over arching story. That's something I haven't seen in an MMO. Usually it's one, maybe 2 sideways stories... that can be ignored as you AFK grind your character on rats, boars, and bears.

I don't mind it having similarities to World of Warcraft, and to be honest Blizzard didn't really introduce anything new or innovative in their MMO - it was just extremely well polished.

I don't mind it having similarities to World of Warcraft, and to be honest Blizzard didn't really introduce anything new or innovative in their MMO - it was just extremely well polished.
Haha yeah, If anything, WoW just ripped off ideas from all the MMO's out there, and streamlined it. I mean it's not like the kill/loot/grind/quest thing hadn't been done before. My only real reason for disliking WoW was that it was boring(to me). There were some others that tried something different, but failed miserably. But WoW, there wasn't anything they really did different than anyone else. Just really well polished. It also was designed to just about run on a waffle iron... That's probably the biggest draw they had. It could run on just about any hardware out there.

TOR isn't like WoW from any of the gameplay footage I've seen.

I disagree here.

I've seen the gameplay footage on their site and it is the same as WoW. Group raids are there just healers are now called jedi consulars and so on and so on.
Same boring, crappy, unappealing, unintuitive mmorpg gameplay.

I nearly hope this game's an epic failure along with that kids cartoon show.

I disagree here.

I've seen the gameplay footage on their site and it is the same as WoW. Group raids are there just healers are now called jedi consulars and so on and so on.
Same boring, crappy, unappealing, unintuitive mmorpg gameplay.

I nearly hope this game's an epic failure along with that kids cartoon show.

Except that the jedi consulars aren't the only healers. One of the first vids showed the smuggler as the healer. If you look at the advanced classes, you can spec out a healer in several classes. Can't do that in WoW.

And I think you should look at that "kids cartoon" it's actually not that bad from the most recent shows.

WoW didn't invent group raids. Not to mention the groups are significantly smaller, so you don't have to wait as long to do the quest you want(from what we've seen). What crappy unappealing unintuitive gameplay are you referencing here that wasn't in KotOR and TSL?

Well that's one way of putting it. At the end of the day i'd have to agree with you that it is about having fun.

I'll try explain what I mean better here.
Nothings wrong with things being based on merit however that not what happens in mmorpgs. It's about leveling up your character and what items you wear, these are the only things that determine how good your character will be.

Basically, i've been hoping for a while now that someone would change things up a bit in an mmo. For a brief moment I thought Bioware were going to break the norm and deliver a unique mmo but that was me being overly optimistic. Simply put: If they had lightsabers in WoW there'd be little difference between these games.

Just a forewarning I have very limited experience in MMO's. I am trying to keep an open mind and in this case I will even say crap is crap, but I cannot solidly make that judgment. I might even agree with you in general about MMOs, but having not played much I cannot solidly come to a conclusion.

What kind of changes do you mean?

Generally: While a certain pattern in gaming of various sorts admittedly gets repeated, tbh what new direction in gameplay is there? New stuff is being invented all the time, but little of it makes the final cut. Some of it is good stuff, other stuff is marginal at best. It ultimately serves a need.
Developers do tend to "use it if it works" and from the producer/seller's p.o.v. overall satisfaction eventually equates to a long term sustainable income because it keeps the base of fans/customers interesed enough to keep buying subscription time. I know this doesn't always make for the best gameplay but to the people on the other end from consumers, money is the score and scoring is success.

Suppose in the long run it'd be better if the games did make the small improvements that make all the difference. Certainly that sets one game apart from another.

I disagree here.

I've seen the gameplay footage on their site and it is the same as WoW. Group raids are there just healers are now called jedi consulars and so on and so on.
Same boring, crappy, unappealing, unintuitive mmorpg gameplay.
How so?


I nearly hope this game's an epic failure along with that kids cartoon show.

Well, it can't really be epic if it is fail. Fail can be massive, though. Ah internet misnomers. :)

I do agree the CW cartoon isn't all that great, and for that matter I'm a little irked that TSL is being boxed up and put on the wayside due to this MMO. I just figure if the SW canon committee has approved so many things and is in a constant state of retcon over accepted material, it isn't a crime to just take what I like and say F*** the rest.

If you look at the advanced classes, you can spec out a healer in several classes. Can't do that in WoW.
Actually, you can do that in WoW.

WoW didn't invent group raids. Not to mention the groups are significantly smaller, so you don't have to wait as long to do the quest you want(from what we've seen).
I wouldn't say that the groups are significantly smaller, since the videos of 4-mans we've seen have been the equivalent to WoW's 5-mans, and Bioware has said that they will also have larger raids of currently unspecified sizes.

@GTA: Could you provide some evidence that they're flipping the bird to K2's story? I've heard that claim before but can't recall anything substantial backing it up.

^^^Not really flipping the bird per se. What I talking about is pretty much how they just flat disregard TSL. It's more or less like TSL didn't happen. In timelines it's like Revan simply won and that was all until he left for dromund kaas once his memory returned. Sure it could be that the historian was "just staying relevant", however TSL made numerous references to the sith empire in the shadows. I'd just think there would at least be some reference to/recognition of the Malachor incident.

Just looks like Bioware simply ignoring Obsidian's work. So I just kind of shrug and say 'meh'.

Dude, I keep saying it over and over again: What about the whole "truth Sith" thing? That's taken directly from TSL! And yes, you can make the case that the "true Sith" were mentioned in KOTOR, but I still maintain it was a throwaway line that didn't have much meaning behind it.

Looking forward to it myself personally. Don't really care about it being an MMO.. I play DDO and it's main demographic (fortunately) brings in the older gens. You don't see many ppl on there under their 20's and it makes for a world of difference with the enjoyment factor...

I'm hoping the same goes with Star Wars. Yeah sure.. it's going to attract some of the younger crowd.. but the main demographic of SW seems (to me) to be edging on the upper echelon of age brackets. ;)

WoW was just waaaaaaaay to full of "children" players, be it actual age or just their mentality... (not all mind you, but more than enough to make it unbearable)

TSL lovers need not read any further. It will only make you bitter since I'm not going to respond. The following is my opinion on Obsidian's story inclusion/exclusion :xp:
As far as the disregarding of Obsidian's work (TSL).. one can only hope. The only character from that sad excuse of a sequel I'd like to see mentioned would be the one you wound up killing at the end... figures.

With any luck, there will be at least some Jolee and/or Kreia references sprinkled in the story. Could really care less about TSL's protagonist though. Whole storyline was garbage worth forgetting about.

Actually they have included a lot of TSL's story line. The whole turning on the True Sith Emperor was a way to reconcile the stories. Plus we haven't really played the main story as of yet. We may well hear of Darth Traya, misleading the Sith into believing they had won, to get the Exile to trust her. Remember she wanted to destroy the Force, and would do anything to achieve that goal.

^^^Yeah, true. There is a lot we have yet to hear. I'm not holding my breath, though. ;)

Tommy pretty much said about the emperor of the true sith what I was going to say, but:
Dude, I keep saying it over and over again: What about the whole "truth Sith" thing? That's taken directly from TSL! And that's all the further it gets into references directly, the rest are vague if not cryptic.
And yes, you can make the case that the "true Sith" were mentioned in KOTOR, but I still maintain it was a throwaway line that didn't have much meaning behind it.
I disagree, given the recent climate of LA content, I'd say this was sort of the idea all along because up until now the only things we had about true sith and the great hyperspace war were obscure pieces and mere references. Granted the "greater scheme" might have not been quite so clear back in '03 (hence I said sort of the idea), however, SW lore is notorious for revisiting stuff. Anyone who followed their pattern of development could probably have speculated as much.

Of course whatever they don't get to, they cede to novelists. :p

@Chainz:http://images.wikia.com/borderlands/images/3/3c/DrHax.jpg)
*Summons monitor at ballistic velocity*

The one little loading screen in KOTOR speaks of the "true Sith" as the Sith species that died out after they were subjugated by the Dark Jedi from the Second Great Schism. In TSL, we get the sense that the "true Sith" refers to something so much bigger and more mysterious, having virtually nothing to do with the throwaway line from the previous game at all. It is possible that Obsidian took notice of this one obscure line from the loading scene and expanded upon it--or rather transformed it into something else entirely--but I personally think that it has absolutely nothing to do with that reference made in the first game, and that the two identical terms are simply coincidental.

Indeed, this is the case because we know that Obsidian invented the "true Sith" subplot as something that was completely new and fresh, having absolutely nothing to do with the Sith Empire or the species of the same name. Now, Bioware has taken the idea and changed it around a bit, linking it right back to the Sith Empire/species from the comics (which was not Obsidian's intention).

Also, let's cut Obsidian some slack, people. It wasn't their fault that TSL was left it unfinished; it was LucasArts' fault. They were the ones that rushed the release for Christmas before Obsidian had the chance to finish the game, and it is my firm belief that the game would have been just a good as the first--or possible even a little bit better--had they been permitted to complete it properly.

I also wish it were Obsidian and not Bioware that were in charge of The Old Republic, because I truly wonder what their version of the "true Sith" may have been like. At first, most of us Expanded Universe junkies dismissed the connection to the Great Hyperspace War because 1. it was just too easy of a connection and not the most creative, and 2. Obsidian had announced that the "true Sith" had nothing to do with the Sith Lords of Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow's lineage. We made up alternative theories that dug deeper into Star Wars lore; but in the end it turned out that the easiest, most unimaginative connection that we had all overlooked and discarded from the outset was the correct one, making these "true Sith" little different from the Sith we see in every incarnation: bitter rivals of the Jedi and the Republic who wish to destroy both entities and rule the galaxy as dictators.

I truly believe that if the story were left in the hands of Obsidian, who came up with the idea in the first place, we would have gotten a new, fresh incarnation of the Sith unlike any other.

For anyone who's interested, my own theory from back in the day was my favorite. In a nutshell, I believed the "true Sith" to have been the followers of the Sith king Adas from 28,000 BBY (pre-Republic), who drove the Rakata from Korriban and went on to conquer other planets to form short-lived an empire, having been instantly propelled into a space age from primitiveness once they were introduced to Rakatan technology, as well as the dark side of the Force. But they soon devolved back into a primitive species until the coming of the Dark Jedi in 6,900 BBY. All of this is from Star Wars canon.

Where my theory came into play was as follows: There was a bit of a division among the Sith species at this time. The ones who were overwhelmed by this new technology stayed primitive, whereas Adas' followers, believing them weak, forsook them and retreated to the Unknown Regions, leaving the "weakling" Sith to fend for themselves as they themselves built their empire in secret. This was the "true Sith Empire" that Kreia spoke of.

However, observing from a distance, they were aware of their "weak" brethren being conquered and subjugated by the fallen Jedi, and from then on they wished to destroy the Sith Lords, believing them heretics. They would soon return to destroy the Sith order, having no cares for the Jedi or the Republic whatsoever; but if they be destroyed in the process for getting in the way, then so be it. This was the threat to the galaxy that Revan and the Exile went off to battle.

So this way, we would have a completely new incarnation of the Sith, completely unique and unlike anything we've ever seen up till now. Instead of hating the Jedi, they hate the other Sith; and there could have been a galaxy-wise war between the two great dark side organizations.

Unfortunately, LucasArts gave handed the reigns over to Bioware, and the "true Sith" they are giving us are not unique at all. They are the same old Sith all over again. Now, I have nothing against Bioware. I love their games, particularly Mass Effect and Dragon Age; but I feel that the story of the "true Sith" should have been left with Obsidian because they would have gotten it right.

Well, i can't really blame Lucasarts for making the "true Sith" just like the Sith we saw in the movies, and in all of the EU.

If they make the "true Sith" something entirely different from what we saw (specially in their philosophy) in the movies...
That would make the Sith that we all know and love/hate followers of the "fake" Sith philosophy!!!

Which is why Obsidian's un-Starwarsy mumbo-jumbo was doomed from the beggining.

No, it doesn't. It just presents a completely different breed of Sith with a completely different philosophy. It doesn't make one side or the other "true" or "fake," despite the fact that Kreia believed one of them to be "true." Both sides would have considered themselves "true" and the other "false."

It just would have brought something new and fresh to Star Wars. There's nothing wrong with going the extra mile and introducing something that is not the norm. Sometimes it works out for the better (see the Yuuzhan Vong).

Would you rather be brave, or would you rather play it safe? Personally, I'd rather be brave. Sure, there's a big chance that the fans may find it too far of a departure from the norm, but playing it safe can get very, very old and boring sometimes.

As far as i'm concerned TSL already stepped over the line, big time, with the whole kill the force business and the force vacuum cleaner.

Kreia make a very good point when talking about the Sith, the Sith is a belief, the Sith are not the soldiers, the ships, and not their whole empire (nor the peanut butter lol).

And again, as far as i'm concerned at least, that belief is that the dark side of the force is stronger, and that the Jedi are the enemy and they will hunt them down to extinction.
That's the Sith for me, it's already been established in the franchise and i like it to stay that way, wanna do something different? Get another name, this one's taken.

Again, it's down to preference, for me this is an established thing in the franchise and i don't like seeing it changed around.
Kotor was regarded as a copy/ripoff/homage to the films and i loved it, TSL was original and left me with a "that doesn't really fit" feeling at various times.

Regarding the Vong, in the GFFA at least, life can't exist without the force.

Sometimes it works out for the better (see the Yuuzhan Vong).
Er, right.

Sometimes it works out for the better (see the Yuuzhan Vong).

Um... I think you're mistaken... the Yuuzhan Vong are considered a change for the worse by most SW fans.... Just sayin...

Well, I think it was great. In fact, it would have been a great place to end the post-Return of the Jedi EU. I wish they hadn't written past that because now it's just old and stale.

I'm going with a tentative "yea".

I should point out that I would have preferred a proper KotOR III, but I think an MMO does have its advantages and if anything I'm curious to see how it turns out.

What I'm mostly looking forward to is the scope. I really like how you can visit different planets in KotOR, but sometimes it feels too restrictive. Or rather, it made me wish I could explore more of the Galaxy. I haven't read that much about SWTOR, but I think it's safe to assume that the world should be pretty large and I'm looking forward to hitting all those planets. I'm a long-time fan of the Warcraft universe and what I liked the most in WoW was being able to explore the whole of Azeroth. I'm hoping to get a similar feeling in SWTOR.

It should also allow us to see the Galaxy from the eyes of a grunt. Most Star Wars games put us in the shoes of a larger-than-life hero - which is in accordance with the source material and is fine with me. But SWTOR should allow us to see things with a different perspective and I'm looking forward to it.

I'm a bit disappointed that they're basically sticking to the holy trinity approach (there are variations, but it remains a trinity), but to be honest I've yet to see a different system that truly works. It might not be glamorous to wish for no innovation in the core gameplay, but I forgive them for playing it safe in that area.

Their focus on story and dialogues naturally appeals to me, though I often wonder how the average MMO player will react. From my experience in other MMOs, I don't think the bulk of the player base is really interested in interacting with dialogues and such. Sometimes I get the feeling that they're aiming the game at a very niche market, which might not work in their favour.

The biggest downside for me is that my free time is extremely limited (and nearly non-existent for some extended periods of time), and that obviously doesn't go well with MMOs. It's still possible to enjoy one, but you don't really get the feeling that you get your money's worth. Also, it's rather hard to get involved in the end-game and with guilds when you lapse every 2 months. When I was actively playing WoW, it was common for me to play a month or 2, then go on a break for 3 months; that doesn't do wonders to the community aspect.

So overall, I'm looking forward to it. I know I won't be able to experience it fully because of my time constraints, but I think it should provide me with a decent amount of fun. I have to say that I'm really starving for some Star Wars entertainment right now, and at this point in time the game would have to be really bad for me not to enjoy it.

The Yuuzhan Vong were the most over the top villains I've -ever- seen, and that's saying something.

That said, I'm pleased with TOR. I honestly think that TSL should never have been made, or at least, it shouldn't have been a nearly direct followup to Knights of the Old Republic. We've got 4000 years of history to work with, there's no reason to restrict yourself to that same block. It's not like Knights of the Old Republic didn't wrap everything up with a nice neat bow at the end - the Sith were defeated/dominant, and Revan was awesome. Roll credits.