I've been hearing a lot lately from many of the people I know in real life that they think the Great Tribulation, (prophecied in the Bible) is going to happen soon. All of the people I go to church with think Obama might be the Antichrist... This is a really delecate thing to discuss with them. I tend to say 'It's pure speculation' when trying to disprove it... The world is in a pretty big mess, but these kinds of ideas are rather... Disturbing. I've heard them all my life of course, so I pretty much know all about how this prophecy works. I thought this would be interesting to disucuss. We've been talking about aliens and UFOs already, and this particular prophecy is peaking my interest due to the amount of people who beleive it. The whole 666, rapture, antichrist, new world order, tribulation, etc, etc thing is a rather controversal, delicate thing to talk about with the religious.

Your thoughts on this? I don't know a lot of the smaller details on this, and I though it would be interesting to discuss.

All of the people I go to church with think Obama might be the Antichrist...Find a different church.

All of the people I go to church with think Obama might be the Antichrist...:lol:

Hey Arcesious, just so I know how to respond, is this intended to be a political thread or a religious thread? Thanks in advance.

I don't believe in any of these prophecies, this being one of them. Religion has done enough to the world, 'scary prophecies' is the last thing we need.
My opinion.

I'm not a 'believer', so I can't really say whether the rapture is going to come or not, but I doubt it will.

As for Senator Obama being the antichrist, I doubt that as well. I don't know about what church you go to, but could it possibly be a race issue?

And, it's been my observation that a lot of American christians seem to support the Republican party. Maybe that's another reason?

Obama's not the antichrist, but he's certainly anti-american...

p.s. did you the new world order thing is on the dollar? and that the U.N. earth logo was originally the symbol of the illuminati? bwahahaha

I'm a pre-millenialist so the rapture is supposed to come prior to the tribulation, so I don't think the Tribulation has happened yet. A lot of people speculated in the 70's that Kissinger was the Antichrist, too. Obama doesn't meet the criteria set down in Revelation for the Antichrist--check Revelation for more details. This is a part of the Bible I've studied with some interest--feel free to PM me with any questions if you don't want to post them here.

reminds me of a line in this song I like:
"In the year 7510, if God's a commin he oughta make it by then..."

Really, people have thought the rapture was coming "next year", "in a decade", "within the century" for ages. And people have named a variety of high-name figures they don't like the anti-christ. So far, no rapture, no anti-christ. Unless none of us made it in the rapture and we didn't notice it happen.

Your thoughts on this? Superstitions...that scene looks like it comes straight out from the middle ages...you'd think world would have evolved a bit more... *sigh* I guess people will never change...or "the more it changes the more it remains the same" (I hope that makes sense in English).

Obama's not the antichrist, but he's certainly anti-american...
huh?

Obama's not the antichrist, but he's certainly anti-american...Could you please help me understand what this means?

I'm a pre-millenialist so the rapture is supposed to come prior to the tribulation, so I don't think the Tribulation has happened yet.According to your beliefs anyway. I'm sure that other beliefs say the opposite while others might think the whole thing is rather silly. :)

Really, people have thought the rapture was coming "next year", "in a decade", "within the century" for ages. And people have named a variety of high-name figures they don't like the anti-christ. So far, no rapture, no anti-christ. Unless none of us made it in the rapture and we didn't notice it happen.Indeed. I guess when you have a religion based on apocalyptic teachings put forth by apocalyptic prophets that lionize apocalyptic figures, the cool thing to do is look forward to the apocalypse :D

All of the people I go to church with think Obama might be the Antichrist...
I thought the Antichrist was already in office.

I thought the Antichrist was already in office.

Nah, he's out now....

http://sharepoll.org/tony-blair/tony-blair.jpg)

Obama's not the antichrist, but he's certainly anti-american...
You've got to be kidding me.


Could you please help me understand what this means?

QFE.

_EW_

Achilles: I guess you could call it both a religious and political thread. I'd like to know how to convince people that Obama isn't the so-called antichrist. Although I'd expect a discussion of theological research is what this will turn out to be.

Jae: What are exact criteria for a person to be the antichrist? That's what really interests me... And yes, my church beleives in pre-trib rapture.

I'd like to know how to convince people that Obama isn't the so-called antichrist.People that draw conclusions without evidence aren't likely to change their minds regardless of what arguments you use. Beliefs tend to be resistant to reason by their very nature and the more strongly the belief is held, the stronger the resistance is as well.

Case in point: I heard a woman chide Obama for renouncing his islamic beliefs in order to become a christian for the election. When it was pointed out that Obama isn't muslim and has been a christian for more than 20 years, she simply ignored the point and continued on as though her position was infallible. Unfortunately people use this kind of thinking all the time and there's very little anyone can do about it.

Yeah... I've had enough of dealing logical error... You probably remember that long post I made in the TGA about why peopel beleive what they beleive... I'm afraid that 'unintentional' prejudice is the true ruler of humanity, and always has been.

Nah, he's out now....

http://sharepoll.org/tony-blair/tony-blair.jpg)

:lol:

People that draw conclusions without evidence aren't likely to change their minds regardless of what arguments you use. Beliefs tend to be resistant to reason by their very nature and the more strongly the belief is held, the stronger the resistance is as well.

I think, Arc, that Achilles' advice here is pretty sound. I would avoid trying to convince people of that, time will have a way of doing that itself (or even not, depending on the person).

Many problems of the world basically boil down to people trying to force their views onto others via force. The kind of people who do this are not the kind of people who will re-evaluate what they think to see if they are wrong.

I've quoted it a few times in forum, but it is a quote I like, and think it true;

“The fundamental difference between the liberal and illiberal outlook is that the former regards all questions as open to discussion and all opinions as open to a greater or less measure of doubt, while the latter holds in advance that certain opinions are absolutely unquestionable, and that no argument against them must be allowed to be heard. What is curious about this position is the belief that if impartial investigation were permitted it would lead men to the wrong conclusion, and that ignorance, therefore, the only safeguard against error. This point of view is one which cannot be accepted by any man who wishes reason rather than prejudice to govern human action.”

I would of course point out the summation of Voltaire, in disagreeing with what someone else may think and say, but defending to the death their right to say it.

With regards Obama, you can present your arguments or not, but I do think the view that he is the anti-Christ is not based on logic, and as such logic will have no impact on the said view.

My 2 cents.

With regards Obama, you can present your arguments or not, but I do think the view that he is the anti-Christ is not based on logic, and as such logic will have no impact on the said view.Well put.

According to your beliefs anyway. I'm sure that other beliefs say the opposite while others might think the whole thing is rather silly. :)
That's why I said 'I think'. It's my opinion based on the reading and studying I've done of the Bible, and I'm by no means a Bible scholar, though I have read through the Bible a number of times and studied Revelation and Daniel in particular, being interested in anything that has to do with the future. If you'd like to actually discuss the Tribulation and Revelation besides 'I think all religion is rather silly' fine. Otherwise, I acknowledge you think it's silly, and I have nothing further to discuss about your opinion.

Web Rider--anyone who says they know when Christ is coming back for sure is wrong. Christ himself said only God knows when He's coming back. In the meantime, those of us who are part of the Christian faith need to be more busy helping feed the poor, caring for the sick, and other such activities enjoined by Christ while we wait, since we don't know if His return is in another 2 minutes or in another 2 millenia.


Arcesious--Revelation 13 addresses a lot of it--has to have a fatal wound that was healed, needs to be a brilliant military leader ('who is able to wage war with him'), and has to blaspheme against God publicly. Obama is a Christian. He's never blasphemed. He's not a military leader. He's never received a fatal wound from which he then recovered. He doesn't fit the criteria. Since he expresses faith in Christ, it's pretty hard for him to be an antichrist.

Web Rider--anyone who says they know when Christ is coming back for sure is wrong. Christ himself said only God knows when He's coming back. In the meantime, those of us who are part of the Christian faith need to be more busy helping feed the poor, caring for the sick, and other such activities enjoined by Christ while we wait, since we don't know if His return is in another 2 minutes or in another 2 millenia.

My own theory is Christ won't come back until everyone who will accept him has done so, and only after that point will he come back.

My own theory is Christ won't come back until everyone who will accept him has done so, and only after that point will he come back.

I could buy that--I think He'd like to give everyone every possible opportunity. However, since I don't know when that would be, I'll just keep trying (with varying degrees of success/failure) to do the work He's set out for me to do. If He comes back soon, great, if He doesn't, I've hopefully lived a long productive life and look forward to seeing Him in heaven.

Interesting... Despite my being an Athiest now, I still find theological research to be facinating, and thus, I enjoy to learn some of the theology my pastor teaches, derived from R.B Thieme's and others' research. The whole '666' code was interesting to read about how it worked when I looked it up on several websites... Perhaps now I can derive an argument against these accusations my church has about Obama. My pastor is a reasonable theologian, so hopefully he'll listen.

That's why I said 'I think'. Actually that isn't what you said, but if you're telling me that's what you meant, then I'll accept that.

It's my opinion based on the reading and studying I've done of the Bible, and I'm by no means a Bible scholar, though I have read through the Bible a number of times and studied Revelation and Daniel in particular, being interested in anything that has to do with the future. If you'd like to actually discuss the Tribulation and Revelation besides 'I think all religion is rather silly' fine. Otherwise, I acknowledge you think it's silly, and I have nothing further to discuss about your opinion. Sure Jae, I'd be more than happy to discuss the tribulation and revelation with you. Perhaps the best place we could begin is the authors and why it is that we should accept their writings.

Web Rider--anyone who says they know when Christ is coming back for sure is wrong. Matthew 16:28?

Christ himself said only God knows when He's coming back. Matthew 16:28!

In the meantime, those of us who are part of the Christian faith need to be more busy helping feed the poor, caring for the sick, and other such activities enjoined by Christ while we wait, since we don't know if His return is in another 2 minutes or in another 2 millenia.Unless of course you're one of those that accept salvation via faith. But that's a different discussion (http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=181963).

My own theory is Christ won't come back until everyone who will accept him has done so, and only after that point will he come back.Hmmm...wouldn't that be impossible considering that new people are born every second? Seems like logistics alone would make that one difficult. Plus the fact that the influence of islam is growing, etc.

*Rolls eyes*

Alright. I believe that this will happen, although I disagree with Jae on the Rapture - I don't believe it will happen, although I lend it more credence than I lend Purgatory.

But, come on. Obama is the Antichrist? I could take Hilary - at least she's psychotic. But Obama...well, Obama's got nothing going for him being the Antichrist other than he's got big ears that maybe if you looked really close could be a pair of sixes stapled to the side of his head. I think he's a snake in the grass, but I hardly think he's the Devil made manifest. None of the signs have come to pass.

EDIT: And, Achilles, just because Salvation is gained by faith does not mean that a Christian should not do good things. It's not part of getting into the Kingdom, as evidenced by the Thief, but it should be done.

Also, Matthew 16:28 is... 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Now, I can't explain that. But my suspicion would be? Some of those Disciples never died. Rather, they ascended into Heaven, to taste Death when the time came. Either that, or they're still among us, but that's an idea that's so far out there in left field that I don't say it with any degree of conviction.

I'll probably mostly opt out of this topic for the most part, because I have been described by my friends as nearly "intolerantly" athiest, but I just wanted to put it out there that Obama is a human being, not an anti-christ. I hope we all know when to draw the appropriate lines between faith and fact, and know to be responsible and to keep religion an institution of words... not actions.

I'll stop there, I haven't got anything good to say about religion (and I'm falling behind on my politics!). But I just wanted to get that off my shoulders. :p

I believe, jonathon has won this thread ;)

Anywho, just because Obama would be the first Black President, doesn't make him the Anti-Christ, people thought the leader of the UN was the Anti-Christ, its all silly. And, despite the thread title, I don't find it that controversial...

Oh, and BTW, yes, I am Catholic.

A few months ago my church thought Putin was the antichrist... Then it was Al Gore, and now Obama...

Well, aside from the refutation of the Tribulation, a good ol' fashioned discussion about which version of beleif of the tribulation is more 'likely' would be interesting...

Well... How did this whole prophecy start, anyways?

(BTW, I said it was controversal because it is such a delecate subject to discuss with certain people.)

A few months ago my church thought Putin was the antichrist... Then it Al Gore, and now Obama...Sounds like anyone that has a different point of view is the antichrist to them. I wonder what Christ would say about his “so-called” children making such accusations about others. We know they would most likely call Jesus the antichrist for setting down with sinners or for curing those without health care insurance. :xp:

This quote of F.N comes to mind... "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher regard those who think alike than those who think differently."

Ok, here's my ten cents.

The biggest reason I can see for people thinking Obama is the Antichrist, is his big involvement with UN and quest for peace. The antichrist will sign a treaty for seven years of peace in israel...

also, I John 2:18 (NIV) "... and as you have heard, the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come..."
So it is possible Obama is an antichrist and not the antichrist.

Well... How did this whole prophecy start, anyways?
Biblical interpretations of the books of Daniel, Revelation, and others

As for interpretations, there are atleast 4 versions of tribulation and rapture that i know of. We are only human, we can make mistakes.

Well, come one!!! Antichrist and such... Bulls*!t... Worry about something else. I don't understand why almost of the faithful Christians take the bible as a fact. The Bible is a big metaphor, with stories you should learn things from. You shouldn't believe that the Arch Of Noe really existed. Or that Somora and Gomora were destroyed by a meteorite shower. God just wanted to tell us what he does when we go overboard. You shouldn't believe that the guys wife really turn into stone, IF their town was destroyed and IF there was that family God had mercy for and ... God just wanted to tell us what He does to us when He gives us second chances and we don't obey Him. Take the Bible as a big metaphor and lesson.
And there is a chance the apocalypse is coming, though it isn't as it is described in the Bible. Do you know that in the current speed of which global worming evolves, in 15 years Earth may be totally changed, flooded at the ocean cost-lines, burnt at the rain forests, the Amazon dry, the nord part of Canada will be one of the best places for agriculture by current standards, that in central Europe, the average heat-which lasts all the year- will be of 50* C, New York, LA, Bangladesh, France, Italy, Holland, Miami etc will be submerged under water??? This should concern you! You know that if you and all the LF-ers unplug the furniture you don't currently use, you will delay with years all this to happen? Also did you know that by doing this you give money to the government, thus when they will see they could get more rich out of this they will approve the plans the scientists have cooked up to save our diseased planet?
The American government hasn't sign one pact of ONU which implies the try to minimize the pollution, you knew that???
Talk about serious stuff please!!! You should tell the guyz in your church to do something about the Global Warming and after it, if we pas it, to star worrying about the Antichrist!

Well this isn't a thread about GW, but you make a good point. We don't need speculation of end times... We need to work to change things...

also, I John 2:18 (NIV) "... and as you have heard, the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come..."Would it help to point out that John was gnostic and that gnostic writings make scientology appear tame and well thought out in comparison? I know that a vast majority of people are at least familiar with the themes of the book of revelation, but how many have actually read it? Now how many have actually read it and still think it was written by someone we should listen to?

A few months ago my church thought Putin was the antichrist... Then it was Al Gore, and now Obama...

That should tell you something about your church - although you've already broken from it, it seems.

Just know that not all Christians are this ridiculously stupid.
Ok, here's my ten cents.

The biggest reason I can see for people thinking Obama is the Antichrist, is his big involvement with UN and quest for peace. The antichrist will sign a treaty for seven years of peace in israel...

Which in itself is not inherently a bad thing ;)

also, I John 2:18 (NIV) "... and as you have heard, the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come..."
So it is possible Obama is an antichrist and not the antichrist.


No, not really possible.


Thanks for your derailing of this thread into global warming. The fact that you're sleeping with Al Gore doesn't really affect the Tribulation.


Would it help to point out that John was gnostic and that gnostic writings make scientology appear tame and well thought out in comparison? I know that a vast majority of people are at least familiar with the themes of the book of revelation, but how many have actually read it? Now how many have actually read it and still think it was written by someone we should listen to?
At least one has read it ;)

As for believing it.... take it with a grain of salt. Or the Pacific Ocean.

_EW_

Just know that not all Christians are this ridiculously stupid
One of those would be me ;)
Oh, and BTW, I've read Revelations, not that big a deal.

Thanks for your derailing of this thread into global warming. The fact that you're sleeping with Al Gore doesn't really affect the Tribulation.
:lol:
That was hilarious to read

Hmmm...wouldn't that be impossible considering that new people are born every second? Seems like logistics alone would make that one difficult. Plus the fact that the influence of islam is growing, etc.

Well, depends how things go, right now the Church is doing rather a good job here of fdestroying it's self. I'd actually say I think Islam growing would more be a back up to my theory than a hindrance. I think that quite a few people will be shocked by who is and isn't in heaven; I don't mean to sound clichéd here, but how many people who say they are Christians are actually Christians? I mean Jesus didn't really seem to like religious people. I say this because I would say that the sure sign of if someone is really following Jesus or not is how they act towards there enemies; do they love there enemies? Or not? Do they bless those who persecute them, or not? (side note: note that the Bible says to judge by fruit, hint: not doctrinal basis). Then consider the following;

I quite like John Sentamu's sentiments on the subject - (when asked about woman bishops and gay clergy here replied along these lines); millions of people don't know Jesus, millions die in Africa every day - I think there are more important things in the world to worry about. That said unfortunately many don't seem to share.

And we eventually have I suppose come back to my original statement along these lines;

Many problems of the world basically boil down to people trying to aggressively force their views onto others via force.

I could buy that--I think He'd like to give everyone every possible opportunity. However, since I don't know when that would be, I'll just keep trying (with varying degrees of success/failure) to do the work He's set out for me to do. If He comes back soon, great, if He doesn't, I've hopefully lived a long productive life and look forward to seeing Him in heaven.

Most of my friends don't know Jesus, so my preference is for him to give them as much time as possible; preferably with a few miracles thrown in.

As for believing it.... take it with a grain of salt. Or the Pacific Ocean.

_EW_

Nice! Now that's the kind of reality check that all these Jesus loving right-wingers need. Especially in this day and age. :D

Nice! Now that's the kind of reality check that all these Jesus loving right-wingers need. Especially in this day and age. :D

Does this mean you're a "Jesus hating" left winger? :angel:

I don't mean to sound clichйd here, but how many people who say they are Christians are actually Christians?

I know I certainly am. :|


Many problems of the world basically boil down to people trying to aggressively force their views onto others via force.


...Luckily I've never been on the giving (nor the receiving) end of this action.


Most of my friends don't know Jesus, so my preference is for him to give them as much time as possible; preferably with a few miracles thrown in.
As long as they know the Word, you can't force them to accept it. You can only wait for them to decide to want to know God.

Nice! Now that's the kind of reality check that all these Jesus loving right-wingers need. Especially in this day and age. :D

What the hell? I'm a Jesus-loving conservative democrat.
This comment was ridiculous.

However, the people who read the bible word for word and treat it as absolute are misguided, IMHO. Anything written by humans is bound to be jaded by the fact that it was written from a human point of view with human biases.



No need to retaliate. :)

One of those would be me ;)

Are you saying you're a Christian? Because I am too. Or are you saying that you believe that Obama's the Antichrist?

If that's the case, then.... :/


_EW_

Well I wouldn't call my church all that irrational... They've always said that they think 'insert name' might be the antichrist. My pastor is pretty smart when it comes to this theology such as this, so I'd at the very best say they're a little bit rash with their conclusions. They're not all to different than Christians on this forum. But, besides that, I thought it would be interesting to debate which one of the sides of the tribulation prophecy is more 'likely'.

They're not all to different than Christians on this forum. Now I'm offended. :cry6:

Well I wouldn't call my church all that irrational... They've always said that they think 'insert name' might be the antichrist.
No offense, but I think I would.


They're not all to different than Christians on this forum.
I beg to differ ;)

Perhaps you're talking about others here besides me; perhaps you're saying that your church is overall not like this, just that your pastor is a bit odd. I'm not sure which.


But, besides that, I thought it would be interesting to debate which one of the sides of the tribulation prophecy is more 'likely'.

You'll have to expand. Explain what you think the "sides" are.

_EW_


edit: :lol: @ mimartin. Quicker fingers ;)

Well, sides such as 'Rapture or no rapture, pre trib rapture, mid-trib rapture, etc, etc...

Well, sides such as 'Rapture or no rapture, pre trib rapture, mid-trib rapture, etc, etc...

I'm with Jae. Pretribulation rapture as the second coming of Jesus Christ.

_EW_

Actually that isn't what you said, but if you're telling me that's what you meant, then I'll accept that.OK, I said "I don't think". It was still qualified.

Sure Jae, I'd be more than happy to discuss the tribulation and revelation with you. Perhaps the best place we could begin is the authors and why it is that we should accept their writings.Why? You're never going to accept their writings anyway, so I suspect it'd be a waste of time. You subscribe to a ultra-liberal view of the Bible that is not accepted by most serious Biblical scholars. I don't agree with either your views on the Bible or your sourcing of those views.

Matthew 16:28?

Matthew 16:28!
"There be some standing here which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom"Well, they saw Christ return after resurrection to His spiritual kingdom. John was allowed to see a preview of Christ's second return. Either or both could apply. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

This is the passage I was referring to:
42"Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
43"But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
44"For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Unless of course you're one of those that accept salvation via faith. But that's a different discussion (http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=181963).Justification) by faith does not remove our responsibility to do good works. A Christian who thinks they can just sit back and do nothing because they're saved by faith is mistaken.

What the hell? I'm a Jesus-loving conservative democrat.
This comment was ridiculous. I totally agree and share a similar outlook.

So it is possible Obama is an antichrist and not the antichrist.So please explain to me how Obama, who has professed faith in and love for Christ, could possibly be an antichrist. I don't agree with everything Obama or McCain do politically, but that has nothing to do with their religious views. I'd argue that Obama has tried to put his faith into action by championing social issues that are designed to make people's lives better and thus could not possibly be an antichrist.

Would it help to point out that John was gnostic and that gnostic writings make scientology appear tame and well thought out in comparison? I know that a vast majority of people are at least familiar with the themes of the book of revelation, but how many have actually read it? Now how many have actually read it and still think it was written by someone we should listen to?
John was most certainly not a Gnostic. All you have to do is read the Gospel of John to know that he's not a Gnostic. No serious Biblical scholar has ever even suggested John was a Gnostic--that's left to some liberal fringe types who are uncomfortable with either Christ's divinity or His humanity, or both.

I've read Revelation a number of times. I view it as written by a guy who was shone things from the future and had to try to explain it in language that his contemporaries could understand. How would someone from the 1600's who was shown a glimpse of the 21st century handle explaining ICUs, TVs, computers, the internet, credit cards, ATM machines, atomic bombs, DNA or even cars to someone else from the 1600's? It'd be pretty tough.


Well... How did this whole prophecy start, anyways?
Discussions primarily in Daniel and in Revelation, with some scriptures from the Gospels and other smaller portions in the rest of the New Testament (e.g. 1 Thess 4).

I'm an athiest, but I'm not going to hold back what I've learned from a Christian perpective where it's useful for discussion. I have to agree with Jae here... However, it sounds to me like a lot of people beleive in the salvation by works system, if I've heard right. From a theological perspective, I'd argue that all it takes is faith in Jesus Christ to go to heaven. Granted, it's considered very important to do 'good' things, such as devote everything you do to God. Salvation by works is inneficient.

According to the Bible, everyone sins, and it's impossible for any normal human to not sin at least once in their life. Saying that you have to be 'in fellowship' in order to stay saved is rediculous, because it's innefficient. In and out of salvation (Eternal life), back and forth, in a system of salvation by works is pointless.

Let's say someone has been a Christian all their life. The second before he/she dies, that person sins. According to the salvation by works theory, that would mean that they don't go to heaven. There are things I've learned from my pastor, two of which are Human good and Divine good. Very interesting to read about, which are key principals in relation to this...

Achilles made some good points about apocolyptic prophecies, but I'm sure we all have heard such arguments before and that they have been discussed. But now I think it would be interesting to approach this argument from an opposite view from my professed one.

(Why I'm debating for the Christian side right now is because I thought it would be an interesting experience to learn from for me to do so whilst still being athiest.)

Arc, I don't believe that you are an athiest. I do believe that you're an agnostic. Big difference there. ;)

<snip>

From my perspective, I am saved by Jesus grace, and because of the love has shown me, I try to show that to others.

From my perspective there is the 'freedom of love' Christians should apply, and then there is religious law many use instead. The former sets you and others free, the latter restricts, and ultimately people fall short of their own religious law (that they often apply to others).

From my perspective, I am saved by Jesus grace, and because of the love has shown me, I try to show that to others.


If Jesus loves you, why does he make you call him 'grace'? Heaven would be a democracy for us westerners, right? No kings, no snobby dead martyrs?

Why do you feel it is your obligation to preach Jesus to others? If others care, they'll convert their own. I've always believed public preaching should be treated as a public indecency.