Give both of them large fleets of ships and armies of soldiers, who wins?
(I really didn't know where to place it, so in here it goes)
There is no reason to assume that Revan could kick the crap out of someone just by looking at the paintings they have hanging on their wall.
Thrawn is proven to have done so.
Conclusion: Thrawn. End of story.
In theory? Revan wins. Sorry. But the fact remains that all he has to do is open a holocomm channel with Thrawn and then he Force-Chokes him to death. Hell, it's not like it would even be the first time this happened, but this time, Thrawn's not going to have one of Palpatine's aides on hand to send the radiation bombs at Outbound Flight.
In Practice? Draw. Revan would propose a strategic alliance against the True Sith and the Yuuzhan Vong. Thrawn, being an inherently logical being, would agree. Given that they're both fairly honorable, they'd probably wind up having joint rule of some kind of Empire.
Revan would feel very frustrated when Thrawn achieves victory after victory. Then Revan would resort to assassination and would likely succeed.
Thrawn has a slight tactical advantage, but Revan has the Jedi advantage. 1v1 Revan takes down Thrawn.
EDIT: By "1v1" I mean without any other aid (i.e. Thrawn using Palpatine as a resource)
Hmmm good question ... It should be a poll ... I will go with Thrawn ... but it's a very closed decition.
In theory? Revan wins. Sorry. But the fact remains that all he has to do is open a holocomm channel with Thrawn and then he Force-Chokes him to death. Hell, it's not like it would even be the first time this happened, but this time, Thrawn's not going to have one of Palpatine's aides on hand to send the radiation bombs at Outbound Flight.
In Practice? Draw. Revan would propose a strategic alliance against the True Sith and the Yuuzhan Vong. Thrawn, being an inherently logical being, would agree. Given that they're both fairly honorable, they'd probably wind up having joint rule of some kind of Empire.
QFT
Revan would win, not only is he a wonderful strategist, but also has the advantage of have force pregonition, not to mention assassinating Revan would be alot harder than taking out Thrawn.
Is there any actual evidence of Revan's supposed strategic genius anywhere other than the player's party members?
The only evidence I know of is the stories of how he completely turned the tide in the Mandalorian Wars, mostly coming from the party members and other characters encountered during K1 and K2.
Is there any actual evidence of Revan's supposed strategic genius anywhere other than the player's party members?
What do you mean by 'evidence'? What's wrong with the NPC's testimoney? Is the fact that only after Revan took charge that the Republic turned the war around?
It was by the actions of one person, the Jedi Revan, that you prevailed.
If Revan had been a Mandalorian, nothing in the galaxy would have stopped us.
At the start, they were not much of a threat to speak of, but once the Jedi Revan had taken charge, things began to turn against us. The Republic fleets began to use more than just basic tactics. Feints, counterattacks, mass deceptions. Revan was a genius on the field. Revan abandoned worlds of their defenders so that others would be too fortified to strike, and was willing to make sacrifices in order to advance goals. And in the end, Revan proved too much for us.
Canderous, isn't the kind of guy who would make a mistake, indeed if a real life Charachter he would be far more qualified than either of us to comment on Revan's abilities.
Only Revan was worthy of our respect. We swept throughout the Outer Rim without opposition—until Revan assumed command of the Republic forces. Only then did the battle turn.
You, Revan, are the single greatest warrior of this age, and any battle we fight will bring me honor."
Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul.
I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others. But that is my belief, since I knew Revan from long ago... as a master knows their apprentice.
Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore? And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew. The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil.
All that says, behind all the hyperbole, is that Revan was a good strategist. There is no indication that he could be Thrawn's equal in any hypothetical scenario.
And why did you include all the quotes about Revan's force ability? What difference does that make?
All that says, behind all the hyperbole, is that Revan was a good strategist. There is no indication that he could be Thrawn's equal in any hypothetical scenario.
There is some indication, at the very least. You can choose to believe it's hyperbole, but all of the conversations point to Revan being a tactical & strategic genius.
And why did you include all the quotes about Revan's force ability? What difference does that make?
I think it's a general conception that people believe being force sensitive aids in just about everything in the SW Universe, up to and including battle strategy. Given how powerful and natural Revan was in utilizing the force, it only follows that he was able to use this to his advantage during battle strategy.
There is some indication, at the very least. You can choose to believe it's hyperbole, but all of the conversations point to Revan being a tactical & strategic genius.
Didn't say there was no indication. Revan is never shown to do anything putting him close to the capability of Thrawn, who we actually see doing things in some EU sources.
Didn't say there was no indication. Revan is never shown to do anything putting him close to the capability of Thrawn, who we actually see doing things in some EU sources.
While the sources aren't as specific as we have seen with Thrawn, I still believe there is, at the very least, some indication that Revan is Thrawn's equal based on the comments we heard in K1 and K2 about Revan's tactical and strategic capabilities.
Whether or not we choose to believe that circumstantial evidence is enough to rival Thrawn, for which we have specific examples, is an individual choice... I won't argue that selecting Thrawn is a bad choice. But I do believe there is enough there to believe Revan is capable of defeating him.
Revan wins. Why? Thrawn is good with normal army tactics, but Revan's knowledge of the Force trumps. And I'm not talking about Force Choke. I'm talking about Malachor, Telos, Serreco, and other planets that became Wounds in the Force. Revan would create Death Stars not just to destroy bases, but to create hundreds of Alderaans. This would augment his natural Force Persuade, making him capable of controlling billions of ordinary troops and Force users.
You see, both are strategists, but Revan was a leader, probably the best in the history of Star Wars. Thrawn can learn a lot about someone from a painting, but it'll be too late because Revan will be swarming Thrawn's bases with numbers that blot out the horizon.
Give both of them large fleets of ships and armies of soldiers, who wins?
Well if it is of any consequence Thrawn lost to my character in the D6 Star Wars Pnp RPG... he lost badly. And he had a very impressive and well crafted fleet of ships.
My same character would also easily take Revan and the Sith fleet Revan possessed... likely even more easily.
Due to the making of the PT and we now know what happened during the Clone Wars it actually made a bunch of what my character has for forces work well in the Star Wars storyline. ;)
OT: Thrawn would have a technological advantage, whilst Revan would have the force and many force users to draw upon... hard to say which is stronger.
Revan would create Death Stars not just to destroy bases, but to create hundreds of Alderaans.
I don't think Revan was the type of person to go for the whole superweapon thing like Palpatine. He was more of a practical warrior. His disdain for using even the Star Forge seems proof of that. Also, I don't even think Revan was at Serroco when the Mandalorians devastated it. He did feel it through the Force, though.
Give both of them large fleets of ships and armies of soldiers, who wins?
I think the thread isn't about a direct confrontation, more in the sense of strategic superiority and as a result all comments about the force are nulled. Okay, so I wont deny that being able to anticipate your opponents through the force is a valuable asset, but it would take more than foresight to win battles.
As far as I percieve Canderous' comments it seems that the Republic outnumbered the Mandalorians, five to one. However, they had no definitive leadership, nor any strategic unison. Revan simply brought the Republic together and allowed their numbers to actually affect the tide. I would equate him as a good strategist, seeing as how the Republic had far more resources and soldiers than the Mandalorians. In fact, it was strategy and terror that allowed the Mandalorians to be so successful, where as the Republic was in dissaray from so many sudden attacks.
Revan united the Republic under one banner, brought forward some Jedi and countered the Mandalorians repetitive strategies.
Thrawn however brought together the Remnants and led them to many victories, against the odds with numerically superior foes. Thrawn was a brilliant tactician, a master in the art of war.
((Yes, I am a huge Thrawn fan . . . read my name for heavens sake :xp:))
In the situation of Revan taking on Thrawn, my personal opinion would say Thrawn.
Revan was a good tactician, but as Admiral_Thrawn pointed out, he was fighting Mandalorians and their repetitive strategies. Not quite the same as devising your own, and adapting as Thrawn did.
In the end, though, I'd probably say draw, Revan was a master of the force, and Thrawn, Master of Strategy, they'd probably just kill eachother at the same time.
Well put CQ :)
I think Revan is overestimated . . . sure he was strong in the force, a expert with the lightsaber.
Actually, Ive thought of a better way to distinguish the two. Revan was a leader, Thrawn a strategist and a leader. Now, as the point of this thread was put we weren't talking about these two dueling, or as their skills as combatants. We were talking about them as leading figures who command two forces, not two duelists.
Thrawn could adapt, he could interpret a races beliefs, strengths and weaknesses just from looking at their creations of art. He could defeat enemies when they vastly outnumbered him, when they were in command of many strategic advantages that almost assured victory for them.
Damn, im pretty sure if Thrawn hadn't been assissnated that he quite easily could've dominated the galaxy.
As for people who are undoubtably going to bring up his leadership experiences as a Sith Lord, you must remember all the things he had at his command. He had the academy of Malachor V, the infinite fleets of the Star Forge, the endless hordes of Sith and Republic soldiers alike, flocking to join the cause of this hero-gone-conqueror of the Republic. Also you must remember, the Republic had just been through two wars and lost a considerable amount of its fleet at Malachor V, as Revan intended. Not to mention the third of the Republic fleet that was under Revans command . . . and the considerable amount lost to the Exar Kun war. Geez, the Republic was in crisis, its forces on the brink of collapse. Hardly the situation of Thrawn . . .
Meanwhile Thrawn had extremely limited forces and supplies, against superior foes who far surpassed his ships and soldiers in many capacities. Yet he triumphed time after time, claiming many victories for his cause. Not only that, he knew when to retreat, who to attack and where to target. Pure genius on Thrawns part, typical circumstance on Revans. He was a figure head and a leader, but not a tactician, not truly.
Im pretty sure that if Revan and Thrawn were fused into one, the Galaxy would be under their total rule within a matter of days. But they werent and they each have flaws and strengths.
True, the circumstances were not balanced, and thus it makes them difficult to compare, but remember that the Republic was in the same sort of crisis from the Mandalorians ad Thrawn was from the New Republic when Revan turned the tide. Also, isn't assassinability another important leadership quality? Your cleverness is worth **** if you are dead. :p Revan is far less assassinable.
I don't think Revan was the type of person to go for the whole superweapon thing like Palpatine. He was more of a practical warrior. His disdain for using even the Star Forge seems proof of that.
1) The Star Forge was not a superweapon, it was a factory that was fueled by solar power and the Force.
2) Revan's disdain was for a very specific reason: it would have eventually consumed him. A Death Star doesn't do that sort of thing, and therefore he would have no problem with it.
Also, I don't even think Revan was at Serroco when the Mandalorians devastated it. He did feel it through the Force, though.
No he wasn't at Serroco. But he used that planet and the others to gain control over Jedi and other Force users.
Thrawn however brought together the Remnants and led them to many victories, against the odds with numerically superior foes. Thrawn was a brilliant tactician, a master in the art of war.
1) No offense but that is hyperbole.
2) Revan did the same thing with the Jedi Civil War early on. Eventually his numbers swelled, but the army he had was smaller than the remaining Republic forces under the Senate's command.
Thrawn could adapt, he could interpret a races beliefs, strengths and weaknesses just from looking at their creations of art.
And Revan could defeat entire enemies by easily understanding their ideologies and breaking them.
He could defeat enemies when they vastly outnumbered him, when they were in command of many strategic advantages that almost assured victory for them.
He had the academy of Malachor V, the infinite fleets of the Star Forge, the endless hordes of Sith and Republic soldiers alike, flocking to join the cause of this hero-gone-conqueror of the Republic. Also you must remember, the Republic had just been through two wars and lost a considerable amount of its fleet at Malachor V, as Revan intended. Not to mention the third of the Republic fleet that was under Revans command . . . and the considerable amount lost to the Exar Kun war. Geez, the Republic was in crisis, its forces on the brink of collapse. Hardly the situation of Thrawn . . .
Revan barely even used the Star Forge. He used it as a jump start device for his army, and had every intention of abandoning it ASAP. As for Malachor, that was a conversion device. Most of Revan's army came to him after the start of the Jedi Civil War when it was apparent that Revan was going to win.
Also, the New Republic wasn't that well off when Thrawn became a threat. They were just beginning to recover from defeating the Galactic Empire...a similar situation to the Old Republic right after the Mandalorian Wars.
In addition, I would not call the Mandalorian tactics repetitive. They were all very aggression based, but not all the same. And Revan did know when to retreat, he could definitely decide when to pull out of one battle in order to win another more crucial engagement.
One last thing: Consider the armies that Thrawn and Revan started with. Thrawn had the remains of one of the greatest war machines in the Galaxy and combined it with Chiss tech to make it even stronger. Revan had the Old Republic military (a rather pathetic fighting force) and a bunch of Jedi Knights (most of whom had never seen war until then), and whipped it up into the backbone of the Sith Empire.
1) The Star Forge was not a superweapon, it was a factory that was fueled by solar power and the Force.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Superweapon)
Just because it didn't have a huge gun on it doesn't mean that it wasn't a superweapon. The ability to corrupt an entire race of beings and produce an unlimited supply of war machines makes it a powerful weapon indeed.
Also, superweapons were expensive and wasteful. Revan was not the type of person to flaunt frivolous power.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Superweapon)
Just because it didn't have a huge gun on it doesn't mean that it wasn't a superweapon. The ability to corrupt an entire race of beings and produce an unlimited supply of war machines makes it a powerful weapon indeed.
Hmm...I personally wouldn't call it a weapon, rather a very powerful and deadly entity (given that the Star Forge was alive. But for the sake of this argument I'll accept the presented definition.
Also, superweapons were expensive and wasteful. Revan was not the type of person to flaunt frivolous power.
You assume that he would flaunt a Death Star like Tarkin and Sidious were planing. Remember what they built it for: A device of fear. Revan would build it as a tool of destruction: wipe out one of Thrawn's civilian worlds and exploit the Force Wound that results. Unlike Tarkin, Revan would be actively employing it to his ends...and take care of that one unprotected port. :D
Revan vs Thrawn? good gosh, that would make such a flipping awesome piece of media. it makes me want to cry when i realise that the chances of that happening are incredibly minute... except for tales.... TALES!!*
@thread: i have a feeling thrawn would win. by a hair's width.
apart from that, i completely agree with Corinthian's second hypothesis.
and if i'm not mistaken, i do believe this is a battle between two of the biggest sues in sw existence yes? heh. awesome.
*now please excuse me while i go cling to this pathetic hope that will never happen
tht would be a good fight...but in the end i think revan would win.
I think Thrawn: Because of the tactical superiority of his ships, their tactics would be a good match for eachother.
all of you guys saying the force doesnt matter? what about bastillas battle meditation? that affected entire fleets. revan could probably predict a few seconds or maybe even minutes before thrawn did something. i think thrawn is every bit as brilliant a tactician as revan but thrawn can not use the intuitive entity that is the force. i think it would be an incredibly drawn out fight and IF revan won he would baaaaaaarely win. all of this of course is just IMO im not saying any one else is wrong.
Being able to see into the future is a great advantage, you bet. But its how you USE that advantage that counts.
**SPOILER ALERT** - if you haven't read "Outbound Flight" and don't want to be spoiled, don't read the rest of this.
Thrawn totally dominated Jorus C'Baoth, only to be nearly killed through holo when Jorus turned to the darkside. This says two things two me:
1) It doesn't matter if you're a Jedi - Thrawn's tactical skills were amazing enough to the point where being Force-sensitive isn't enough to overcome.
2) It doesn't matter how tactically skillful Thrawn is - a force-user can always fall back on manipulating the force to achieve his or her goals.
Those are at odds, obviously. Also, C'Baoth was powerful, but there was never any indication he was nearly as skilled as Revan as a military tactician.
There was much to indicate that C'Boath had little to no military expertise, anyway. He was arrogant and drove his unsinkable Titanic right into an iceberg.
That being said, behind fleets Thrawn would have the advantage. Hand-to-hand, Revan would likely be more physically fit. Person to person, Revan could crush Thrawn with the Force unless Thrawn was clever enough to trick Revan into some sort of stunning defeat.
There was much to indicate that C'Boath had little to no military expertise, anyway. He was arrogant and drove his unsinkable Titanic right into an iceberg.
That being said, behind fleets Thrawn would have the advantage. Hand-to-hand, Revan would likely be more physically fit. Person to person, Revan could crush Thrawn with the Force unless Thrawn was clever enough to trick Revan into some sort of stunning defeat.
Agreed, Jorus C'baoth demonstrated no strategic prowess, or little other useful knowledge aside from being a thorn in Thrawn's side. It may be possible, that if Thrawn had just eliminated C'baoth, then he could've been victorious against the Rebel Alliance. C'baoth was a big problem indeed for Thrawn.
Also, agreed that Hand-to-Hand combat would definately be a Revan win, but strategically, Thrawn wins, it's almost unfair on that part...:D
There was much to indicate that C'Boath had little to no military expertise, anyway. He was arrogant and drove his unsinkable Titanic right into an iceberg.
Joruus C'boath himself (the clone) also had no military experience. The fact that he [the clone] thought that this was of no consequence was probably a result of the clone's insanity.
Thrawn with any kind fleet would be devasting for even the most powerful ships, he would some kind of Tactic to cripple the competition.
Thrawn with any kind fleet would be devasting for even the most powerful ships, he would some kind of Tactic to cripple the competition.
So certain, are you? :yodac:
i think people are forgetting the difference between the wars revan fought and the war thrawn fought
thrawn was undoubtedly the better tactical commander but i believe that revan was the better stategic commander to put it otherwords in war ou typically have a general on the battlefield (could be a lower rank ) they are the tactical commander they are responsible for the tactics on the battlefield they change and adapt to the field of battle as it happens this is the sort of general thrawn is portrayed as.
revan on the other hand is portrayed more as a strategic general the one who manages the war not the battle the startegic planning for a war is typically done very far from the battlefield it is far more static it involves heavy uses of logistics and impartiality revan supposedly had direct control of a third of the republics fleet he likely fought multiple battles simultaneously without actually being anywhere near the battlefield
this is the crux of the difference i suspect that in a direct confrontation between the two we would end up with a stalemate if its a direct single confrontation i think thrawn would win he would suffer apocalyptic loses however (i believe revan would be quite capable of the feet that the cloned cboath was used for the enhancing of the individual soldiers coordination and efficency indeed i doubt half the premise of bastila in kotor as battle meditation was a feat quite within reach of many jedi masters my take on it is that she is merely unnaturally skilled in it like corran horn and his natural skill in illusions and mental suggestion there is also the fact that revan was a known master of battle precognition. though my belief of the power is that it is far more useful in a strategic sense kotor 2 showed it being used in a much more tactical manor) ultimately i believe thrawn would win in a straight out matched confrontation
however in a prolonged war as such i think revan would claim victory thrawns major gift is his situational brilliance and insight the fluidity of his tactics without him being everywhere i suspect revan would destroy the man in a war of attrition he would bleed his armies dry as that is where i see revans brilliance being in the application of generals not in the directing of a battle. so ultimately id say revan and thrawn are the two greatest examples of the corrosponding types of generals in the starwars universe,
this is my opinion but as it is likely that the kotor comics will try making revan into a tactical commander it is likely to change irrevocably
Revan would win. Thrawn is at a severe disadvantage. He needs to examine art that the person created or enjoyed to figure out somebody. What do we know of what Revan likes or dislikes in art?
If Malak had not betrayed Revan, then it would have only been a matter of time before Revan conquered the Republic. Revan's disdain for superweapons is far more than just dislike of using the Star Forge. There are refrences that freshly created Derriphan-class battleships were part of Revan's fleet during the Jedi Civil War and that means that Revan must have had the blueprints for them and with those blueprints came the blueprints of the Corsair.
I think they're too similar in mind and opinion to fight each other. I bet they'd would end up good friends. But if I had to choose, Revan. You can't look past the fact that he has the Force on his side, and would have many Force abilities that would give him an advantage in strategic battles and in war.
Revan would win. Thrawn is at a severe disadvantage. He needs to examine art that the person created or enjoyed to figure out somebody. What do we know of what Revan likes or dislikes in art?
It doesn't matter what Revan's art choices were. Thrawn was a brilliant strategist and tactician. He didn't need a species art to create a strategy, but it provided him a great insight into the way a species would react.
Also, about the idea that Revan would be superior based on his ability and understanding of the force, Thrawn understood the force pretty damn well. With only base knowledge of the force, he solved force related problems that had stymied people for years, (i.e. using ysalamiri to solve speed cloning problem) and without the force, defeated Jorus C'Baoth, a master who was very skilled in the force, twice.
I think they're too similar in mind and opinion to fight each other. I bet they'd would end up good friends. But if I had to choose, Revan. You can't look past the fact that he has the Force on his side, and would have many Force abilities that would give him an advantage in strategic battles and in war.
I completely agree with that. In the two wars they fought, they both had the same goals. Thrawn was fighting to secure the galaxy against the impending attack of the Yuuhzan Vong, and Revan was fighting to unite the galaxy to prepare it the threat of the "True Sith".
Also, about the idea that Revan would be superior based on his ability and understanding of the force, Thrawn understood the force pretty damn well. With only base knowledge of the force, he solved force related problems that had stymied people for years, (i.e. using ysalamiri to solve speed cloning problem) and without the force, defeated Jorus C'Baoth, a master who was very skilled in the force, twice. There's a big difference here, though. Even if you don't consider Revan Thrawn's equal in strategy and tactics, he at least came close to it, and this, combined with his Force talent, made him a much more capable person than C'Baoth, who merely was a clone of a Jedi Master. A powerful Master, perhaps, but this clone was mentally unstable (which doesn't make him a weakling - but a combination of a strategical and tactical mind with a huge Force potential make Revan a more worthy opponent than C'Baoth). And while Thrawn may have had a better understanding than most not Force-sensitives, they mostly were an advantage when he was standing in front of a Force user. Revan would never need to be in personal contact with Thrawn to turn a battle in his favor using the Force.
Revan.
Revan was powerful with (pre-capture) and without (Endar Spire/Taris) the Force. Thrawn learned about a species battle strategies by studying their art. Revan would create a new strategy that surpassed all Thrawn could ever know or learn. Revan could also use HK-47, the HK-50's and the HK-51's, who could be produced infinitely. If Revan simply bombed the Nohgri homeworld then Thrawn would be left with very few bodyguards. Imagine this:
An army of Stormtroopers, a handful of Nohgri Commandos, a few slaves, a Dark Jedi, and a fleet of Star Destroyers (Thrawn) against an army of Sith Troopers, Star Forge Droids, HK Assassin droids, Mercenaries, hundreds if not thousands of Sith and Dark Jedi, a Sith Lord, and a massive fleet of Ships constructed by the Star Forge and infused with the Dark Side (Revan). See how it balances out?
Thrawn was a strategist, but Revan was a strategist and a leader. Revans leadership ability and charisma could keep his soldiers loyal to him to the death. Many beings only allied themselves to Thrawn for personal gain. Revan's assassins could also capture and corrupt Thrawn's forces, adding to Revan's might.