Where do I have any blame in this? Explain to me.
Jediphile, you were the one who brought it up the topic of PMs...
Actually, if I'm going to split hairs, it was Niner, when he said I did not use them.
But there is a difference between saying that PMs have been posted between people, as I did, and referring to specific things stated in them, as Darth333 did. I have not made references to the PMs between you and me, for example, even though I could use them in support of my position. Because to me those PMs are private and not for the board, unless both sides agree that they are.
The vitriol described in a first contact like this cannot bode well for future relations and dooms any chance of constructively addressing the problem. :(
In light of prompt deletion out of the blue, I felt it was an appropriate comment to make, given that I was to accept Niner's humor as well. But it would seem I'm not allowed to have a sense of humor. Or to mirror El Sitharino's position: Is it my fault if Darth333 did not see it that way? For someone claims that I insist on seeing things from the worst possible angle, she sure did little to promote the opposite herself...
But that's a recursive question Jediphile. Eventually you end up with the answer "nobody" or "everybody" or "God" or something equally nonconstructive.
What significant point can't you say that about? Sure it could go that way, but it's still important to ask those questions now and then, even if you can never get a definite answer.
I feel like this thread has stalled on rehashing old issues and confusing them with current ones. Would you like to make any further constructive criticisms or shall I close this thread?
If you do not believe in discussing these things, then go right ahead. In that case I'll have to conclude that discussions like this one are banned here and that the mods are above criticism and above the rules.
If you do not believe in discussing these things, then go right ahead. In that case I'll have to conclude that discussions like this one are banned here and that the mods are above criticism and above the rules.
It's not that I don't believe these things should be discussed, but like any good meeting, it should determine what action items are necessary so that the meeting may conclude. Otherwise it the meeting continues ad nauseum. (couldn't resist the Latin bandwagon :p)
In parliamentary lingo, I'm calling for the previous question.
What, Jediphile, do you want? The post that got deleted is irrecoverable. If you wanted to vent your frustrations, you've done that. If you're looking for some other recompense, state it exactly and it will be considered.
I had a whole big sentence by sentence refutation thing going, but I decided to cut out most of them, save for the most relevant ones I've left above. Jediphile, let me make this as clear as possible. As I said above, I believe you to be an intelligent and well-spoken contributer to the forums. You offer well-reasoned and insightful commentary to many different Star Wars topics. This is a very good thing. The other mods (RedHawke in particular, if you can believe it) can attest to my believing that.
Unfortunately, you also have a persecution complex, in that you believe everyone on the mod staff is out to get you. I know this goes back further than even your involvement with me, as you've had a few tussles with the SWK staff before, over pretty much the same concepts. Quite frankly, you are too sensitive. You take things way too personally. No one else reacts to jokes/friendly sarcasm/etc like you do. We do not have this problem with anyone else and I don't think it is fair that we must use a different set of standards/words/tones when dealing with you. Everyone is dealt with in the same fashion. You are the only one who has reacted in such a way.
Look, let me (myself and I; I do not speak for the rest of the staff) make a deal with you, okay? I understand that my joke made you upset and I am sorry that it did, because that was not my intent. I also do not think that the best way to handle it was to taunt me with it. That being said, I'm will watch what I say in the future when dealing with sensitive and heated topics. I am outspoken and blunt, with a very sarcastic sense of humor, but I'm willing to temper myself when dealing with potentially volatile situations. In return, I ask that you not take everything so seriously. Being hypersensitive to the point where a joke like the one I made is construed to be a personal attack doesn't really help anything. In the same vein, please do not try to take justice into your own hands and try to 'make a point', as this isn't the right way to do so.
We can continue to go back and forth ad nauseam, but that wouldn't get us much of anything save for more anger and frustration and other unwanted nastiness. I'm more than willing to meet you halfway to put our argument to rest. Are you?*
*If you are, please consider extending the same courtesy to tk and D3 and the rest of the staff. Like I said, they are not all out to get you and I believe they would much rather have you around as a contributing member of our forums.I swear, this man taught god to be all loving! <3
Who does watch the watchers?Hi. Name's Raymo, and to my left, jayston. We watch the moderators and administrators of LF.*
(*) The female ones at least, when they're naked, and under the shower, and they don't catch us, that is.
You know, I've thought a lot about this issue too....and I have to admit it's the most entertaining thing I've read all day.
save maybe for that topic on how your parents told you "the facts of life."
What, Jediphile, do you want? The post that got deleted is irrecoverable. If you wanted to vent your frustrations, you've done that. If you're looking for some other recompense, state it exactly and it will be considered.
I suppose I'm looking for some glimmer of the possibility that the mods might reevaluate their initial positions on matters like this one and not repeat those actions in the future.
For example, El Sitharino has bascially stated that it was fine to delete my entire post because he felt some of it was objectionable and the rest was too immaterial to be allowed even though it was on-topic. I have yet to see the mods actually say that deleted stuff just because they don't think it's constructive despite being on-topic is wrong.
Besides, it's scarcely as if there is much indication of progress here, which means we'll just be repeating this exercise in the future - if not with me, then with someone else. You seem open to consider this matter, and Niner certainly has with his recent comments. I don't know about Jae. But El Sitharino and Darth333 seem adamant that I'm just being willfully difficult and should go away or just stop talking altogether. I see little or no change there.
What I'd want is a restoration of my faith that events like this one will not occur again in the future.
Not deleting post with extreme prejudice would be a pretty good start. Actually taking complaints serious and do something about them instead of ignoring them in the hope that the problem can then be killed by silence would be another step. Talking to people when these things happen and actually listening to to what they say in return instead of dismissing them and hand down the verdict quickly from high like in a drumhead trial would also help.
Now, that's a conceit, of course, as there will always be issues like this one. But if the alternative is cynicism and rejection of any attempt at making progress, then the first option still seems better to me. Sometimes you just have to choose to be naive because the alternative is even worse.
Ac
But there is a difference between saying that PMs have been posted between people, as I did, and referring to specific things stated in them, as Darth333 did. I have not made references to the PMs between you and me, for example, even though I could use them in support of my position. Because to me those PMs are private and not for the board, unless both sides agree that they are. No, you did say that we did not responded to you. I rectified the facts and have not posted the contents of the PMs except for the fact that you have insulted me, hence the reason why I did not responded to you the second time. When you raise an issue like that, you implicitly open the door to such an answer.
In light of prompt deletion out of the blue, I felt it was an appropriate comment to make, given that I was to accept Niner's humor as well. But it would seem I'm not allowed to have a sense of humor. Or to mirror El Sitharino's position: Is it my fault if Darth333 did not see it that way? For someone claims that I insist on seeing things from the worst possible angle, she sure did little to promote the opposite herself... If you find humorous sending a vitriolic PM calling someone a nazi and telling them that you have a very low opinion of them (and that was not the first time) you really have a strange sense of humor... :rolleyes: Your PM was not humorous at all. Feel free to post our "correspondence" if you want (and don't forget the humorous title you gave it!).
We take complaints seriously when they are justified (remember that we did intervene in your favor too in the past). Unfortunately, we cannot moderate the boards according to everyone's whim (or should we add to the rules that people can call each other "nerd" except when it comes to some particular users?)
Edit: what RN said below.
Compromise requires two sides, Jediphile. We can try and promise things like this will not happen, but that requires change on both our parts, since the status quo has clearly not worked. If we're willing to meet you halfway, what will you give us in return?
No, you did say that we did not responded to you. I rectified the facts and have not posted the contents of the PMs except for the fact that you have insulted me, hence the reason why I did not responded to you the second time. When you raise such an issue, you implicitly open the door to such an answer.
Again, there is a difference between saying that corresponding has taken place and telling other people about what was said in that correspondence.
If you find humorous sending a vitriolic PM calling someone a nazi (and that was not the first time) you really have a strange sense of humor... :rolleyes:
I said "net-nazi", which you cannot take to be a stab at your political position, of which I know nothing. That is not the same as a nazi, despite your attempt to infer it, and while you may not like, your out-of-the-blue deletion of inoffensive posts without warning or provocation should be expected to result in a harsh response. You could have discussed the matter. Instead you chose to just delete stuff and then forget about it. What do you think that tells me about your respect for Ztalker or me?
Your PM was not humorous at all. Feel free to post our "correspondence" if you want (and don't forget the humorous title you gave it!).
I don't think "long live the dark side" is particularly insulting in light of the discussion. Besides, I did not do that on the open forum where you're rediculed in public. You could at least acknowledge that.
We take complaints seriously when they are justified (yes, we did intervene in your favor too in the past). Unfortunately, we cannot moderate the boards according to everyone's whim.
But you could apply the rules equally to everyone instead of applying in one way towards Niner and another towards me. "Equal under the law" is a fairly common principle in any most societies based on legal principles. I should like to think that goes for Lucasforums too, but I've seen little that supports that.
Again, there is a difference between saying that corresponding has taken place and telling other people about what was said in that correspondence.By referring to the said correspondence and telling that we did not respond, you have opened the door to that. I was in my right to defend myself from your allegations.
What do you think that tells me about your respect for Ztalker or me?
The only reason I deleted the posts (and I have already explained that to you and in the thread) is that you an him were engaged in a completely off-topic discussion. I did not gave any warning as I did not think a warning was warranted. I had nothing against you or Ztalker. I simply wanted to put the thread, which was an interesting thread btw (the announcement of an agreement between LA and Bioware), back on topic. Yet , you assumed that I did that with the sole purpose to piss you off. Instead of simply asking why I did not deleted RN's comment in your correspondence, you started to call me names and assume that we did that to oppress you. I tried to explain my decision but your reply was even worse...
"Equal under the law" is a fairly common principle in any most societies based on legal principles.First, this is not a state. It is a private corporation. Second, the problem is that you ask for special treatment.
Anyway, I won't be posting here anymore unless you have something new to say...the same arguments are coming back ad perpetuum and ad nauseam...
save maybe for that topic on how your parents told you "the facts of life."
Dammit I missed it! Where is it?
I don't want to hear any allegations of mods not responding, because it's patently not true. I've responded to your reported posts, Jediphile, and all I've received in return were insulting emails or PMs from you when I explained politely why something wasn't done the way you wanted it done. Dealing with that has been extraordinarily frustrating. And yes, I have copies of our correspondence back and forth. You've been the topic of discussion in the mod forum, so we've seen correspondence between you and a number of mods. I'll be happy to post some as proof if you'd like a reminder, and as examples of your behavior to us and our forbearance to you.
I’m not a member of many forums (four actually) so I may be an n00b for asking, but how many forums would allow a thread like this?
My opinion is by just allowing this thread to exists and remain open this long proves to me that the moderators and the administrators’ fairness and open-mindedness more than any mere words could do.
Do they allow other moderators to get away with a few things the average user does not get away with? Probably, after all, they do know each other, they have a working relationship and they would give that person the benefit of the doubt to their remarks being an attempt a humor. After all, they are human and that is human nature.
I saw Rogue Nine’s comments and my personal opinion is that it was funny. Of course, that is a matter of taste. I also felt it lightened the mood, which that thread sorely needed at the time.
As to deleting post:
The staff reserves the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread or post for any reason deemed necessary. By posting here we accept that our post might be removed or altered. If we don’t maybe we should not post here. I am not saying you should not post Jediphile, I am saying you should be held to the same standard as the rest of us users.
Not deleting post with extreme prejudice would be a pretty good start. Actually taking complaints serious and do something about them instead of ignoring them in the hope that the problem can then be killed by silence would be another step. Talking to people when these things happen and actually listening to to what they say in return instead of dismissing them and hand down the verdict quickly from high like in a drumhead trial would also help.
Okay. We'll work on that. Thanks for your feedback.