I think in this world of continued Bush bashinh and shunning the war on terror, America has lost its sense of what started this country, a sense of loving the country and wanting to proceed to independence. With the opening words of the Declaration of Independence (or Constituion, forgot which one) "WE the People...."
It was the Constitution. And, if you didn't know, this country was founded by the people challenging the powers that be. Thomas Jefferson himself said that for freedom and independance to flourish there needed to be an armed revolution every 20 years; I think peaceful protest and satire about the administration is the least we could do.
You should also read the Constitution, then look at what amendments Bush has violated, better yet, look at the ones he hasn't violated-it's a much shorter list- after you do this, come back and post who you think is un-American-the protesters or Bush.
Also-
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
I think you're half right. Yes, there's a major loss of patriotism in the U.S. But the reason why is because the country is more divided than ever. Remember how united we were after 9/11? Well, a few years later with thousands upon thousands of American casualties in a war many now are thinking was a mistake, you can kiss any patriotism we had goodbye.
Whats destroyed Patriotism is extremism on both sides, the wackos on the far left are out throwing up on the street and blaming everything on the government and offering no solution, the wackos on the far right are denying the problems completely and too eager to press ahead as usual and not at all willing to accept the issues that need to be addressed, if we want patriotism back we all need to get back on common ground.
I really doubt that will happen
I think you're half right. Yes, there's a major loss of patriotism in the U.S. But the reason why is because the country is more divided than ever. Remember how united we were after 9/11? Well, a few years later with thousands upon thousands of American casualties in a war many now are thinking was a mistake, you can kiss any patriotism we had goodbye.
My take on that sort of thing was that by practicing free speech and fighting for what you believe, whether it be "pro-American" or "anti-American", you are more patriotic and are adhering more closely to the ideals of what this country was founded on than another person who just sits back and nods their head whenever those in power say anything.
My take on that sort of thing was that by practicing free speech and fighting for what you believe, whether it be "pro-American" or "anti-American", you are more patriotic and are adhering more closely to the ideals of what this country was founded on than another person who just sits back and nods their head whenever those in power say anything.
Amen.
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. :)
Amen.
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. :)
Not if you're a facist :D
Not if you're a facist :D
Or a communist. Don't forget the left! ;)
Or a communist. Don't forget the left! ;)
Hate to turn this back-and-forth into a serious conversation, but true Communism doesn't involve "shutting people up" ;)
Yes but you won't find pure "your choice govenment here" anywhere, you can't have pure socailism, pure communism, etc. and you can't exclude human nature.
I think you're half right. Yes, there's a major loss of patriotism in the U.S. But the reason why is because the country is more divided than ever. Remember how united we were after 9/11? Well, a few years later with thousands upon thousands of American casualties in a war many now are thinking was a mistake, you can kiss any patriotism we had goodbye.
Patriotism as a concept has always bugged me. It rarely seems healthy, often seems fake, is often exploited or ill thought out... and generally doesn't fit into modern life very well.
The idea of patriotism seems like something born of the rose tinted view of white picket fence america. Much as people like to look back on the "good old days" with the white picket fences, happy families and quiet neighbourhoods they always forget that behind the scenes there was just as much racism, sexism, domestic violence and other roblems as there is now. Patriotism seems the same to me... its a way of ignoring anything bad and pretending that everything will be ok because we are all in it together! (except those that might disent, as they are obviously unpatriotic).
It was much easier to buy into the myth of patriotism in the good old days when all the dirty secrets were hidden behind closed doors, when we didn't know about all the crap our governments pulled, when the press kept most of the dirt hidden, when the films and cartoons all offered an approved, rose-tinted, patriotic view of the world that nicely brainwashed everyone at a young age.
These days we hear and see all the mistakes and corruption and lies. These days our cartoons contain annoying yellow sponges and aren't all about how wonderful life is as long as you stick to the straight and narrow and uphold the party line. don't question. don't think.
Patriotism is definately an idea for the unthinking. The post 9/11 "unity" shows that. Suddenly everyone was united in emotional anger and suported lots of extreme actions that they would never have supported if they had rationally thogh about things... and which many of them later would come to regret. But thats the problem with unity through patriotism - its an unstopable wave of mob emotion... and no-one wants to stand up and make themselves a target by saying "hangon a minute, maybe we should think things through....?"
Otherwise they find themselves the subject of "back us or get out" school jocks, or "you are with us or against us" or macarthyist witch hunts.
It is interesting to note that every time the US population was patriotically united in response/fear of communism they became more like the communist dictators they claimed to oppose. And when they because united in patriotism after 9/11, they became more like the arab extremists that they claimed to oppose.
Patriotism is a mob fear/anger response.
Maybe we all would be happier if we could turn the clocks back to those "happier days" when all the bad went on behind closed doors, no one was different or questioned authority, and patriotism was easy... because you weren't taught any other option. But like pandora's box being opened I think society has now seen too much and you can't ever go back to blind loyalty - except in moments of unreason after traumatic events.
http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/img/pto_OS_characters_06.jpg)
I agree with you on all points... I didn't mean to imply that patriotism is a GOOD thing, but that yes, we have lost our patriotism. And that might actually be a good thing.
Patriotism is more like a pride in one's society and can show you like the ideals your country stands (or says it stands) for. Its like if I had pride in my school, it doesn't mean I just hide all the corruption and dirty things inside the school under a happy little rug and tell everyone everything's perfect. It just means i'll still stand by my school and will help fix its problems. Its definitely is a concept for more than just the unthinking ;)
I think my thread about why we value our own citizens more than others was somewhat targeted at patriotism. Patriotism/Nationalism I think are real problems in society. They build up the belief that we are better simply because we were born/immigrated here, not because we've done anything significant ourselves.
It also makes it easier to be manipulated, and desensitized to other people's plights. "Meh, they aren't one of us so why should I care?
Is Patriotism (at least in the classical sense) even possible to sustain in a global free-market society?
When you can buy a Toyota made in Kentucky, and everything else you buy is made somewhere else overseas, what does any of it really mean at that point, anyway?
I think as we as a society come to the conclusion that we are all citizens of the planet, as well as just a certain neighborhood sectioned off on that planet, Patriotic/ Nationalistic tendencies will eventually fade away.
I think my thread about why we value our own citizens more than others was somewhat targeted at patriotism. Patriotism/Nationalism I think are real problems in society. They build up the belief that we are better simply because we were born/immigrated here, not because we've done anything significant ourselves.
It also makes it easier to be manipulated, and desensitized to other people's plights. "Meh, they aren't one of us so why should I care?
Aye, I do not like it when one person looks at others arrogantly and thinks of him/herself as better than those outside. I just think its alright to have a little pride in the ideals/achievements of one's own country. I'm a citizen of India, i'm proud of the fact that we invented the number 0 and came up with the way we number things, our invention of chess. None of these things I helped come up with, its like being proud of a family member accomplishing something, but I in no way think India is any better than a lot of countries and we are far from perfect.
Well I can say I'm proud to live here in a country that has a fair constitution, where I won't be shut up for talking bad about a public official, proud that I don't live in an extremist theocracy like Iran where I could be killed for bad mouthing the muslim faith, proud that I have the right to rise as far as my ambition can take me, thats my take on patriotism.
But there's no reason to be PROUD of that. Appreciative, glad, yes. But proud? What exactly did you do to make sure that you weren't living in a theocracy like Iran? Did you choose where you were born, and who your parents were? I doubt it, which is why there shouldn't be any specific PRIDE attached.
I'm proud that people long before my time were willing to take the chance to develope a democracy, besides pride is a personal opinion
Patriotism, though easily exploited, corrupted, etc etc, to me makes a bond, and bonds are usually very strong. I love this country, honestly. I may not agree with the adminstration, but the country itself, I love it. Patriotism is not concrete; it exists only as a feeling. Thus, I can understand why some would not feel patriotism is a worthwhile thing. It's just knowing that you can be represented- you look at gangs, cliques, etc, communities... I throw Memphis pride whereever I'm at. I had nothing to do with my parents coming here, but I'm glad to be here.
It's not doing, it's just being. And that's good enough, I think.
Perhaps no reason truly exists to have pride in one's country.
But there's no real reason for love, either.
"Love is the triumph of imagination over intelligence."
Where was that saying from?
Patriotism is good. To a point.
Like toms said, it can have a mob effect. When that happens it can be dangerous
BUT I would like to point out two things right fast.
@Jmac
"You should also read the Constitution, then look at what amendments Bush has violated, better yet, look at the ones he hasn't violated-it's a much shorter list- after you do this, come back and post who you think is un-American-the protesters or Bush."
That's nice. But until you actually bring a little fact to fiction its rhetoric
@TK
Thousands upon thousands? Stop eating your words and just say stuff that you can support.
Remember guys! YOU have the "burden" of the proof! (sue me I'm a debater)
I am not pro-bush by any means. But I hate mud slinging, and people just making claims without evidence to back it up makes me roll my eyes.
@Jmac
"You should also read the Constitution, then look at what amendments Bush has violated, better yet, look at the ones he hasn't violated-it's a much shorter list- after you do this, come back and post who you think is un-American-the protesters or Bush."
That's nice. But until you actually bring a little fact to fiction its rhetoric.
You sound like Bill O'Reilly-and I don't mean that as a compliment.
Here's the PATRIOT Act (although not everything I'm referring to is as a result of this):
http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html)
Here's the US Constitution:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html#amendments)
Check Amendments 4, 5, 6, and 8 (yeah, it's not most of them, but these are also the most important). Then check the PATRIOT Act (sections 213, 214, 215, and 218 in particular).
More Information:
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/toolkit/images/privacy_checklist.pdf)
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/17326res20030403.html)
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/index.html)
American casualties at around 2,300.
http://icasualties.org/oif/)
Well, TK is techinically right. It's a thousand upon a thousand. plus three hundred. :p
American casualties at around 2,300.
There are WAY more than that. When I say "casualties" that also includes the soldiers coming home, you know, without arms or legs.
That site says it's at 19,845.
Amen.
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. :)
Unless it's dissenting just to dissent... which I see alot of.
I think America is pretty divided in many ways. Unlike the melting pot, it seems alot of people are tied to their political party/ideology, race or religion.
I also think, to some extent, that it's pretty 'hip' to stand against America. At least in my academic atmosphere, people seem to hold other cultures above their own.
They take a trip to South America and come back all preachy, they slam the rich in this country yet their parents paid for their trip.
You also have the right wingers, steadfast in their defense of a crooked leader and a war that we should not have gotten into.
So yeah... no one can come to a consensus and alot of people hate the opposite political party more they do Al-Qaeda....which is pretty sad.
Sorry...you guys do get alot of my classroom baggage.
Patriotism is mainly national pride - which when you think about it is a very strange concept. Why shoul I be proud because I happened to be born in the same country as someone who did something impressive, or invented something clever? Lest we forget pride is a sin, and god wasn't an idiot when he thought of that list... and it seems to me that being proud for something thet you didn't even do is worse than being proud of your own achievements.
Lots of people from my country have doe great, and terrible things... but i have no pride in their achievements as i played no part in them.. as i have no guilt over their failings. Maybe those that run things, or those that fight for our country, they have a right to be proud of what they have changed/tried... but not me and not some guy in a trailer who drinks beer and watches TV and is the first guy to shout about national pride.
I am certainly thankful that i live in a free and well off country, but i'm not pround of it as it was nothing to do with me. I'm certainly greatful to those that died in the past defending that way of life i enjoy - but i'm not sure "pride" is the right word.
When i think of national pride I think of my local paper. Some comedy show on national tv made a joke about the town i'm currently living in and so they decieded to start a "Swindon and Proud" campaign.. with free posters and badges to put in windows. People wrote in and said how proud they were. Local "celebrities" popped up for photoshoots saying how proud they were to have been born in swindon (as if they had a choice!).
Thing is, its a pretty crappy town and has nothing to really be proud of.
A few people wrote into the paper to point this out... the response was mainly "well, if you don't like it then why don't you leave??!"
This seems to me to be a very dumb but typical response. If someone doesn't show the expected patriotism then they should just get out. In my opinion it should be "if you don't like it then why don't you IMPROVE IT?"
But i think that when people pointed out the flaws that was what they were trying to do - improve things... its certainly better than simply putting your head in the sand and prettending everything is great out of some misplaced need to feel pride or patriotism.
I've been lurking here for some time and just thought I give my view on this.
I live in Sweden and have personally never felt any sort of patriotism for my country. If our gouverment would do a George B. and parade our soldiers infront of the swedish flag and declare a holy war on "terrorism", I promise there would be riots and probably impeacement. Nationallity and patriotism in sweden isn't even half of what it is in the US and to be honest, so what? Why be proud of something built by blood and suffering of the people only to give the "leader'(s) more power?
Nationallity is in my opinion only a tool to gain power. A society of democracy without unjustices does not create borders or know a thing of patriotism. Think about it, who is the only one to gain in patriotism?
Yeah that's right, not the people but the guy in charge.
Hehe i'm such a dirty commie. :blast5: