I do agree with Macleod that if a company doesn't produce, they shouldn't get repeat business unless they can demonstrate an improved track record.Right, however I do not believe that's what happened here. Many factors indicate that LA asked for changes to the original agreement. This is known as scope creep (when a project sponsor changes the project after work on the project has already begun).

I will say that if LA pushed up the deadline on OE, that's not exactly fair to OE, either. Precisely, although this does not make LA a big, mean bully, it just makes them a business. I think that the change from a February, simultaneous release for both platforms to a December release for xbox followed by a February release for PC is a pretty clear indication that this is exactly what happened. Either that or OE was promised a bonus for a christmas xbox release while they were negotiating the deal and they decided to try to take advantage of it. We may never know.


However, these 2 companies partnered together for the game, and they're in the same boat. What one company does or does not do on the TSL project definitely affects the other. I am not attempting OE bashing here, either, since I was, overall, satisfied with the game. It just appeared to me that LA was conspicuously silent when lots of people complained about the cut content issue It entirely possible that it's not LA's place to address the cut content. Really, cut content be damned, I would prefer to see an explanation for the lack bug-fixing game patches. These are controlled by LA and I think we absolutely should have heard more on that front.

Don't forget that this game sold well and was put up for many awards. It's not like this was some crap game scraped off of someone's shoe. PC gamers are up in arms about cut content and game patches, while I'm willing to be there are hundreds of thousands of xbox owners that were perfectly satisfied with the game.

I think Achilles just hates me.. Hehehe... ;)

I think we should get this thread closed up, for it is creating more heat than what it was intended. There are most likely facts that we are all missing. Since we are not OE or LA, we will never truely know what happened behind closed doors. OE and LA may be hoping the game will disapear for a while, or someone is working on it as we speak. Who knows the truth? I personally don't.

Speculation is healthy. When we don't have all the facts, driving at uncertain conclusions only creates unhealthy obsession.

I know we all wish OE had more time to get the game perfect, but if we look at things from an unemotional business point-of-view, moving the release date to November was a shrewd business move. I have no doubts that both companies made more money because of that. The gaming industry may have some idealistic artists in it, just as the film and music industries do, but the bottom line is still the bottom line. You do what will make you the most profit. Even if it means you will not have your product as perfect as it could be.

I think that the change from a February, simultaneous release for both platforms to a December release for xbox followed by a February release for PC is a pretty clear indication that this is exactly what happened. Either that or OE was promised a bonus for a christmas xbox release while they were negotiating the deal and they decided to try to take advantage of it. We may never know.Interesting. I never considered the possibility that LucasArts offered a financial incentive to Obsidian Entertainment if they pushed up the release date for TSL's XBox version to make it out in time for the 2004 holiday season. While we may never know the answer I sure would like to. :naughty:
Really, cut content be damned, I would prefer to see an explanation for the lack bug-fixing game patches. These are controlled by LA and I think we absolutely should have heard more on that front. I wholeheartedly concur on this point. IIRC the "hi-quality" movie and hi-quality music patches weren't released until long after the game had been out but their files were dated much earlier, seemingly indicating that these patches were sitting around gathering dust until somebody finally remembered about the need to actually release them to the people who bought the game. I also find it quite interesting that modders are releasing TSL game fixes for dialog bugs and such. I couldn't figure out then and still don't understand now why LA and/or OE provided such shoddy (IMO) post-game release support. :giveup:

^^^^
Based on my limited knowledge of the game industry, such patches are created at the request/with the approval of the distributor. Since LA owns the game, they have to commission the patches from the developer. If such a commission never takes place, then the patch doesn't happen (hence why OE has only released a limited number of patches. Bioware had 4 chances to get KotOR right, but bashers seem to conveniently forget that).

Since the patch is distributed by the distributor (LucasArts), it must be approved by said party. OE stated that the patch was complete and ready for download months before it was actually released. This leads me to the following 2 scenarios:

1) The patch was given to LA for distribution, but additional bugs were found. The patch was then kicked back to OE for revision or...

2) The patch was sent, ready to go, to LA but was caught up in bureaucracy for a couple of months before release.

Considering the news that LA had undergone major restructuring during the period that the patch was released, combined with the nature of the patch itself, I'm more inclined to believe that scenario 2 happened rather than scenario 1. Odds are that LA didn't have the resources necessary to test and approve a patch for some time, hence the delay in the patch. Rather than potentially bash their business partner, OE kept quiet and took the heat as "fans" continued to bash them for not producing the media patch they "promised".

I think Achilles just hates me.. Hehehe... ;)Hates you? No. Thinks you talk an awful lot about something you know little about? Yes. :D

Hey, we're all guilty of it and I hold no animosity toward you. Just lighten up and maybe spend some time considering the possibility that the world does not operate under the intricate rules that you have assigned to it ;). Something that I tell my direct reports constantly: If management was all about clear cut decisions, they could replace us all with robots tomorrow. The fact is that most decisions are not clear cut and require the judgement of a person. If we (managers) don't accept that, then we are in the wrong business.

Hates you? No. Thinks you talk an awful lot about something you know little about? Yes. :D

Hey, we're all guilty of it and I hold no animosity toward you. Just lighten up and maybe spend some time considering the possibility that the world does not operate under the intricate rules that you have assigned to it ;). Something that I tell my direct reports constantly: If management was all about clear cut decisions, they could replace us all with robots tomorrow. The fact is that most decisions are not clear cut and require the judgement of a person. If we (managers) don't accept that, then we are in the wrong business.
:fist: Those robots... Hehehe...

I think we all come to these forums, and sometimes we forget where we are. Even though we don't leave our desk, everyone is drawn to one location or another to releive stress and have fun. Every now and then, both of us included, we forget where we are and the stress that builds up throughout the day gets splattered across threads. It is all about being human.

No hard feelings on this end either. :)

OE has admitted that they weren't able to do some of the things that they wanted to do, but I'm pretty sure every game developer has those feeling about every game they make.

You can leave the "game" out of that. An acquaintance of mine runs/owns a small audio company and develops his own amplifiers and speakers. He once told me something like "You *always* know that additional time makes your product better, but if you're doing business then at some point your product just has to be completed."

Achilles, I think you made some very good points in this thread, probably the best one is that if two companies decide to do business together it actually means *together* and not against each other. I think people around here attach too much importance to this whole cut content stuff. I presume that the hardcore gamers (the ones who are keen on finding every glitch just to be annoyed...) are taken serious also but they're just a small part of the target audience and their opinions cannot (must not) dominate a game company's decisions. One thing is clear IMO: If either LA or OE would have thought that TSL wasn't ready to be released they wouldn't have released it...

The main question with regard to blame is did OE use the time they were given well? If they were dragging their feet, and then suddenly had an "ohhh sh$t moment when LA gave them a shorter deadline, then it's OE's fault for procrastinating and then having to do a rush job (which, examining the game, it seems like this is the case). It's difficult to understand why OE needed a ton of time to make KOTOR II: they didn't have to develop a graphics engine, which generally takes a majority of the time, they worked with bioware to understand the engine, and they had a good amount of time.

You don't seem to know how much time it would take to make such a project. It did take them less time to make K2 then Bioware with K1.
Accusations of procrastinations are not the smartest criticism I've heard. You've overlooked a lot of points made earlier in this thread.

Point being, even without an engine to build, they have to write a story adn the dialogues, then make new models, new skins, make new areas, new animations, new cutscenes, record sound, record voices and test the game for bugs and even more things. They had around 14 months to do it with a relatively small staff. Good amount of time? I don't think so.

^^^^
Not to mention all the revisions that were made to the engine; stuff the average player wouldn't see unless they took up modding. Major overhauls to the dialog system, game difficulty, random loot stuff, etc. Things like influence weren't built into the original game engine, OE had to go in and make it from scratch. Sure they had someplace to work from, but that doesn't mean that they didn't have a lot to do.

Well, i know for sure is if i was a publisher, i would give the developer a reasonable time to develop the product, something like 5yrs to develop it, but ask them to do their best.

But then if i was the developer and i got asked if i could get it done 3 months earlier and it was make the game no where near good enough to be a good title, i would have said no.

but thats just my opinion.

Frankly, I think that the really good game modders should be hired BEFORE a game is released (when it's in the alpha stage) and let them go at it to find and fix any potential problems. Modders are going to find and fix things as needed so why not pay them to do it and give them copies of the games before it's in beta testing. If it weren't for many of the modders I wouldn't be as big of a fan of KOTOR as I now am. Oh sure I loved the game before but if it weren't for the fixes of the little things (like Carth's romance fix in KOTOR or Bao-Dur's remote influence mod) I wouldn't be here. Those little extras and tweaks that the modders come out with makes the game more enjoyable and it's not like the company has to use a modder's work in the final game but if the modder can find and fix potential problems (like how Team-Gizka is working on TSL) then HIRE them.

Frankly, I think that the really good game modders should be hired BEFORE a game is released (when it's in the alpha stage) and let them go at it to find and fix any potential problems. Modders are going to find and fix things as needed so why not pay them to do it and give them copies of the games before it's in beta testing. If it weren't for many of the modders I wouldn't be as big of a fan of KOTOR as I now am. Oh sure I loved the game before but if it weren't for the fixes of the little things (like Carth's romance fix in KOTOR or Bao-Dur's remote influence mod) I wouldn't be here. Those little extras and tweaks that the modders come out with makes the game more enjoyable and it's not like the company has to use a modder's work in the final game but if the modder can find and fix potential problems (like how Team-Gizka is working on TSL) then HIRE them.
***Cringe.***
I want to comment, but I humbly disagree with this. I do reframe from pushing my thoughts about this onto anyone. However: ***Cringe*** :fire2:

Frankly, I think that the really good game modders should be hired BEFORE a game is released (when it's in the alpha stage) and let them go at it to find and fix any potential problems.
Programmers working ont he game are paid to do this already. Why would a company who alreadys employs people to do a job spend more money on people to do the job that people they already have employed are paid to do? They wouldn't.
Modders are going to find and fix things as needed so why not pay them to do it and give them copies of the games before it's in beta testing.
An alpha stage of a game isnt even really playable, finding bugs is going to be a given do to its an ALPHA and not a Beta. Beta means "mostly done, just need to double check balancing and other things like that". Companies would also never give away their game code to anyone incase it gets leaked. Which is a big no no. Companies do not like their games to be leaked to the public.
If it weren't for many of the modders I wouldn't be as big of a fan of KOTOR as I now am.
I can agree with this. I sometimes only buy games just because I can add mods to it or make my own.
Oh sure I loved the game before but if it weren't for the fixes of the little things (like Carth's romance fix in KOTOR or Bao-Dur's remote influence mod) I wouldn't be here.
"Bao-Dur's remote influence mod" Is not a *fix* it is a hack to show you something you were never meant to see. (no offense to the maker of the mod of course) If it was a fix it would be something that was meant to be in the game and just never worked properly and was needing "fixing".
Those little extras and tweaks that the modders come out with makes the game more enjoyable and it's not like the company has to use a modder's work in the final game but if the modder can find and fix potential problems (like how Team-Gizka is working on TSL) then HIRE them.
See above. Game companies are not going to hire people to do a job they already have people employed to do. Not just because they already have people but every extra person on the team adds more then their wage to the budget, You still have to pay for other things that are required by law (holiday pay, sick leave etc etc) More people = more money having to be spent = less profit.

Modders are modders and not employees because they have lives outside of working on games and like it that way. Sure some would love to be working on real games and being paid for it but I bet the majority would only want to work on a game once it is finished.

Modders are modders and not employees because they have lives outside of working on games and like it that way. Sure some would love to be working on real games and being paid for it but I bet the majority would only want to work on a game once it is finished.
I considered modders as game players out to have more fun. I don't believe thier intention is to be an employee for any other company except for themselves. It is all about fun. :)

If a modder does get hired by someone, that just enhances the fun. I don't know any modder who is doing this to get hired. I could be wrong.

ok i'll be honest i read the 1st few message boards of this thread and a few others in it so if the points i am about to make are just meer echos of other people i apologise

ok as to where blame should lie for k2 i believe 3 groups are to blame

1) bioware for not continuing there great work with kotor

2) LA for putting such a tight deadline on obsidian

3) Obsidian for accepting this deadline

and as to obsidian working k3 i have heard they are and they are creating there own games angine for it wich is probably why it taking so long and they are trying not to make the same mistake twice


as for bioware refusing to do k2, this is not hard to believe it doesnt take much homework to notice that bioware are good at create games but i have yet to see them make a sequal game they always pass the buck and it seems they pass the buck a fair bit to obsidian 'never winter nights' is a good example of this and i suspect the reason they passed the buck to obsidian is because some of the obsidian team are ex-bioware team worers

but as there werent many complaints about nwn2 and there was as far as im aware a lot of people looking forward to nwn3 i dont think that obsidian are completely to blame about how bad k2 was

I'll just be happy if _someone_ is designing the game, as long as they're good. :)

Uh you mean even like: John Maddens KOTOR III by EA Sports? (devils advocate) :O)

Well, since you seem so well versed with "business world" concepts, then you are surely familiar with scope creep. You know, like when a publisher originally sets a February release date then later changes it to December. Not to obsolve OE of their responsibility for agreeing to the change (I suppose they could have just decided not to complete the project), but it seems pretty clear that the tail did not wag the dog in this situation. While you certainly have a right to your incessant OE bashing, I find it to be short-sighted and foolhardy. Perhaps you should ponder your position on this one for a while longer.
I agree, after all, look at the talent on the Obsidian Team. I'd be interested to see a comparison between the amount of time spent developing KOTOR I, and KOTOR II, and I would hazzard a guess that LucasArts probably wanted the next installment to begin developement ASAP. If my calculations are correct, I would imagine that Obsidian had a chance to tell LA "I told you it'd be a little ragged if we released it so soon" So if you boil it all down, and look at the amount of time Obsidian has had to work on KOTOR III, I bet you all that KOTOR III turns out to be the best of the series, eclipsing the first two, think about it

well actually i believe your half right obsidian said in their posts in their forum that their deadline for kotor2 never changed and the change of release date had nothing to do with them. So the blame in my opinion is shared between 3 parties as i half already said in a previous post on this very thread, but that just my opinion