Point taken...but the world has changed quite a bit since then.

What's the difference between Hamas and Fatah? Sounds like the start of a joke. However the punch lines happen to be the civilian population of both Israel and the Palestinian territories.

And now, due to the impudent hubris of the western free press, any European, or ango, that happens to be visiting the territories. The extremist that are now in control of Palestine are actively looking for anglos to kidnap and FORCE the western governments to CONTROL the press and prevent them from displaying political cartoons that they find objectionable.

Are we to stay out of their politics while they rampage and terrorize the rest of the world because we dare to be different? If nothing else, this goes to show how they will rule. Not a good sign.

No, it isn't. And that's exactly why we should help fund the government that will stand up to their fascist bull****. When HAMAS starts burning Danish and French flags instead of the US's, then maybe that'll gibe the Europeans a heads-up.

We can only pray...

TK-8252, thank you for spelling this out for people with your Vatican/athiest analogy. I'm not a Palestinian nor Arab but I am a Muslim and this is pretty much *exactly* how we feel about the situation. Of course the locals (Palestinians and other Arabs from the region) feel it more because it's their homes and land that were taken and/or destroyed in addition to the religious issues.

Point taken...but the world has changed quite a bit since then.
Not as far as i can see. As i said, the tactics back then were seen as just as shocking by the british... but the americans didn't care about fighting the war properly...they cared about using whatever tactics they could to defeat a superior enemy.

So, out of the 3,000 or so palestinians killed in the last 5 years, you recjon the majority were militant leaders? Boy, talk about big government..

What's the difference between Hamas and Fatah?
As far as I can see the difference is marginal.. and is mainly a matter of semantics. Fatah (like the IRA) has seperate wings (military and political) and several different factions which vary in the extremity of their views.
Hamas on the other hand is a untied entity.

This makes westerners feel more unconfortable, as there is no cosmetic gap between the political governers and the armed militants. But other than that the difference is mostly cosmetic.

All the footage I've seen RE:the mohammed cartoon has been of Fatah millitants with guns, making threats and blockading embassies. I think Hamas are too busy trying to work out how to run a country.. and Fatah obviously have some pent up frustration that they have found a target for.

But as the leaders of every islamic state have (allies or enemies, moderate or extremist, democratic or dictatorial) have condemned the cartoons its hardly fair to single out the palestinians.
(though the whole cartoon issue is possibly worth another thread)

It strikes me as a little odd that the same people who argue in other threads against the seperation of church and state, for laws to be based on religious principles (gay marriage, abortion, etc..) and would likely support (a) the right to bear arms for self defence, (b) an eye for an eye style justice, (c) those that say the traditional family unit is being destroyed due to pre marital sex, adultery, working mothers etc.. seem to be the ones most against governments that govern based on religious scripture, make laws based on religious teaching, bear arms in self defence, practice biblical justice and so forth. Isn't that exactly what you would wish for in your country?

A christian country that implemented, to the letter, all biblical laws would be almost identical in practice to a muslim country under sharia law. Its just they implement their religious teachings evenly, not picking and choosing the ones they happen to like or dislike like modern christian leaders.

Well, it's official: HAMAS shouldn't rule.

I'm sure you heard of the outrage that the Arabs feel over Denmark and France posting a cartoon of Muhammad. Well, the PLO is burning Danish flags. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aSsFmISwXDEM&refer=europe)

Additional Source (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060130/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_prophet_drawings)

http://abcnews.go.com/images/International/JRL10801301143.jpeg)

Third source (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1557221)

If that's what HAMAS does now, I can't even begin to think about what they will do in power. The whole world MUST obey the Muslims! Or else they will look for captives to force the government to convert to Islam! It's going to be hell on Earth if allowed to rule. I mean, think about it, if they get a big position of power in the world, they will eventually take over! It's terrorism! It can't be allowed to go on.

Oh...

Fourth source, in case you weren't convinced enough. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/30/AR2006013000431.html)

So... what's your plan for getting them out of power?

And exactly how are the Palestinian people who voted them in see any action towards the government they elected being forcibly removed from power by outside parties as a reflection on the mechanisms of democracy?

I'm not sure you can go around the world trumpeting free elections, then bitch when someone is voted in who's principals you don't care for.

I'm not sure of the solution... but presenting America's face to the world as totally hypocritical on elections and democracy we are so busy trying to promote doesn't quite seem like the way to go.

After all... if there are to be truly free elections in Iraq, then it very, very possible that country could go the exact same way.

The PLO was never a part of Hamas or visa-versa. As I understand it the PLO became Fatah.

Infact there is only one reference to Hamas in any of the articles you linked:
Several Islamist groups, including the Palestinian militant Hamas party and Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, called for a worldwide boycott of Danish products.

Which hardly seems like a particularly terrorist-like stance to take. Boycotting goods!! Oh the animals!!

The protests follow Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen's Oct. 21 refusal to meet ambassadors of 11 Muslim countries to discuss censuring the Jyllands-Posten paper after it printed 12 cartoons of the prophet on Sept. 30, including one showing Muhammad wearing a bomb instead of a turban. Muslim leaders want an official apology.

So, 11 muslim governments are upset over this, and you somehow assume that this is a sign that Hamas is unfit for government? I don't get the link at all. (and i still think this cartoon topic deserves it's own thread, but can't be bothered to make one.)

You seem to be guilty of lumping a whole load of unrelated things together and tarring everyone with the same brush simply because a few people went too far. (and as far as i'm aware, appart from a few protests and flag burnings, the only "too far" act that has occured was the kidnapping of a german(?) guy... and that wasn't even in palestine.)

HYPERBOLE! Hurray.

How exactly does a completely seperate group burning a flag equate to HAMAS trying to take over the world like this **** was some sort of Pinky and The Brain?

"Ahmed, do you know what I am pondering?"
'No, what are you thinkin about Abdul?'
"What I think about every night, trying to take over the world."
"WE WILL TAKE OVER THE WORLD BY BOYCOTTING GOODS!"

How barbaric, damn that HAMAS.

One possible solution that seems to make sense to me: http://www.theamericancause.org/)
(If the home page column changes the article in question is called "Put Hamas on probation.")

While Pat Buchanan is not exactly a name I normally associate with reasoned moderation, at least not on the "Culture-War" front, I basically agree with everything he says in his latest online column. I often find his foreign policy instincts are right on the money.

why does it always have to be the same? I mean some people who gathered to decide what is wrong and what is right for totally deferent people, first of all we have to know that its not your or my decision to support or not support HAMAS, what matters is that their people support them and this is their decision only.

Well, first of all, you should not judge some one by his action without knowing his reasons beyond this actions, these people are fighting for their land and above all for their lives, the two sides are killing eachothers that’s right, because they are in war, but it is always the American narrow view (no offence meant to Americans), lets not forget that what the American government do now (unleashing wars) is for their own safety, like that they are only humans and those whom they are killing (even if they are terrorists) are not humans, the leaders of HAMAS must be killed but not the leaders of Israel, that’s a very narrow view, I mean lets just get some flashbacks from the history, we do remember that every nation had fought to get its independency, they killed and were killed, that is war, and that’s what happening between Israel and HAMAS, now how can we stop this war, we have to negotiate, and that means that the two parties must give something to the other, and if we just say that HAMAS wont do this simply because they've killed some Israelis, that wont help because Israel did the same and I can not find some one who says the same things about them.

Now, the American government says that they will stop giving the aid to the Palestinians and some of you have said that too, that lets see what the Palestinian shall do if we stop the aid?
It is very arrogant and barbaric, how could someone say this with cold blood? Do you know what stopping aids means? It means killing the Palestinian people, if you stop the food and the money you are killing them, how could you say this? Lets just kill some poor Palestinians, do you think that they will love you then and they will blame HAMAS for this????? Hey wake up, its them who elected HAMAS and they've elected it for a reason, for they think that they are the ones who guarantee their rights and whether you like it or not it’s the truth and its their decision not yours, instead USA will be hated even more.

Another thing, you can see how USA is mistaken by knowing this (or remember it because I think that everyone knows), every time some one of the USA government come o please us with his/her nice looking face, he/she start to talk about democracy and how they will make the people decide whom they want to be ruled by, and suddenly when this words became real and the people of Palestine elected their leaders in a democratic way, we find them saying that they wont deal with this terrorists, well it’s the democracy you want and it was your decision so why leaving??????? Or maybe what they meant by democracy is electing a government that support the US and its policies, and if that was the case, correct me if I am wrong, it wont be a democracy maybe.

Well, it's official: HAMAS shouldn't rule.

I'm sure you heard of the outrage that the Arabs feel over Denmark and France posting a cartoon of Muhammad. Well, the PLO is burning Danish flags. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aSsFmISwXDEM&refer=europe)

Additional Source (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060130/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_prophet_drawings)

http://abcnews.go.com/images/International/JRL10801301143.jpeg)

Third source (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1557221)

If that's what HAMAS does now, I can't even begin to think about what they will do in power. The whole world MUST obey the Muslims! Or else they will look for captives to force the government to convert to Islam! It's going to be hell on Earth if allowed to rule. I mean, think about it, if they get a big position of power in the world, they will eventually take over! It's terrorism! It can't be allowed to go on.

Oh...

Fourth source, in case you weren't convinced enough. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/30/AR2006013000431.html)

dont get me wrong but, [Deleted]?, if HAMAS that strong it wouldnt take them that time to acheave thier aims, and it would be foolish to stand against them.

and as for what you said about the cartoon drawings, its really stupid to think that mocking of the holiest person in the hearts of 1 million and 4 hunderd thousand persons around the world is a freedom of press, if offencing people in thier believes is freedom then you must not hate nor attack someone who attack the holocaust (as Iranian president) because its his point of view and he is free, not just that even those who kill themselves in suicide bombs are free, and so on...so its rediculous, you are free, but your freedom has limits and its limist ends where others freedom begins, thus attaking people in thier believes is not freedom, and if your societies dont care about this stuff, you should know that not all the societies around the wrold has the same values as yours and especially the arabs and muslems, and by doing this (especially after Bush's supporting the cartoons) people will hate you more and it is wont benefit you nor the whole world ,including muslems, if people started to stand by Ben Laden.

Apparently, HAMAS has launched a web site enouraging children to become suicide bombers (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=99839)...

Personally, I don't think HAMAS is going to moderate just because they've gained power...if anything, they're going to get worse, and this is evidence of that.


And, for the record, there are many radical Islamic organizations whose stated goal is to have Shari'a law worldwide...essentially, the worldwide domination of Islam. I don't know whether HAMAS is one of those organizations, but I remember reading that it was one of Al-Qaida's stated goals.

I like how instead of coming to a conclusion through evidence of them being bad, you just assume they're horrible and search for evidence after the fact.

And Al-Qaida is not the topic at hand, they have about as much relevence to this as guacamole does to canaries.


So far HAMAS (the political party) hasn't really shown themselves to be an incompetent political party, and while I generally dislike the group, I have no reason to see them unfit for duty.

So the numerous HAMAS suicide bombings don't count toward HAMAS being bad? I'm not coming to conclusions without evidence - I know HAMAS is bad because of what they've done in the past. As far as their political role, I've heard many express high hopes that they would moderate now that they're in power, but I'm skeptical based on their history and various reports I've read about how they're still encouraging the destruction of Israel...and this is just one more peice of evidence against them.

I may be wrong, but i don't remember hearing on ANY hamas violence since they were elected? Have i missed some?
As far as i know Islamic Jihad have fired a few rockets into islamic territory, not hurting anyone. Israel has bombed a car with two islamic jihad terrorists and a child. Thats it as far as violence so far.

Hamas has dismissed a message by al-Qaeda number two Ayman al-Zawahiri urging the Palestinian militant group never to make peace with Israel.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4776578.stm)

It should probably be pointed out that just because Hamas is in charge doens't mean they have a total dictatorship.. there is still a parliament with Fatah and other party members, there is still a president and a court.

To be honest, I have no idea if Hamas will be good or evil (or probably something in between)... but i'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt for now.