...and make more lame gametypes for putrid honor saberists. Great Work!!
If I am wrong about the definition of "honor saberist" then forgive me, but I consider myself an honor saberist, if ONLY in the duel/power duels. I really have little choice, because of my weapon choice, but I never saber a chatting duelist on purpose. I don't use butterflies and katas unless I am surrounded, and I never grip-kick.
I don't do these things especially because of my weapon choice. Wielding the Saber Staff has gotten me more flak than anything else I've done in my life. Consider these:
"We don't allow the Staff"
"Only n00bs need the Staff"
"The Staff is a cheat get lost"
If I don't play as an honor saberist, I get kicked. Sometimes I'm dropped because of my screen name. So, I have to bind my own hands, and play handicapped, a moronic consequence of liking the Staff. So, be careful of calling us putrid: I personally have no choice, and I get satisfaction out of playing with honor... and winning! (If I can get a game...)
If I am wrong about the definition of "honor saberist" then forgive me
The 'honorz' players that people refer to are usually those that complain about being 'lamed' in any gametype (even when they deserve to be killed, such as in the above example, where it keeps the game moving along) and often try to turn others to their silly ways. These players are particularly foolish in games such as CtF - I find it funny when 'chatting' players on the other team complain when I kill them for standing on my flag-spot. >_>
Wielding the Saber Staff has gotten me more flak than anything else I've done in my life. Consider these:
"We don't allow the Staff"
"Only n00bs need the Staff"
"The Staff is a cheat get lost"
If I don't play as an honor saberist, I get kicked.
You must simply play on terrible servers. I never get that sort of response when I use a Saber Staff (but then, I mainly play on the CtF servers, and those seem to contain better people in general).
I get satisfaction out of playing with honor... and winning!
That's great. =) It's a shame many people give the Saber Staff a bad name - it requires skill like all other weapons.
Just less of it...
OK, way, way less.
You're arguing.
Do not argue with me on this issue.
You will get dominated.
Consider it a warning: The only time staff and dual are not overpowered cheese weapons compared to single is when the single user yaw-cheats.
BZZT. Wrong-o! If you say that, then I say Blue Stance is a cheat, because Strong users must use a yaw-cheat to catch up with them. And it only takes less skill to wield a saber staff if you are a no good idiot who holds down the primary+alt fires all the time. You know, katas all the time. That's a B-S strategy. I use the kata when hemmed in on FFA, but never in a 1-on-1 duel, rarely in a 2-on-1 duel. Only in power duels when I am alone. If you don't use cheap moves like that, the Staff can be kinda slow. I hit some combo of Forward-Right and Backward-Left or something like that, and the staff spins fast in a horizontal swipe. NOT the twirl, mind you. That too is cheap...
The 'honorz' players that people refer to are usually those that complain about being 'lamed' in any gametype (even when they deserve to be killed, such as in the above example, where it keeps the game moving along) and often try to turn others to their silly ways. These players are particularly foolish in games such as CtF - I find it funny when 'chatting' players on the other team complain when I kill them for standing on my flag-spot. >_>
Ah, so there is a difference between Honor and honorz? I'll remember that. I play for honor, meaning no cheap moves, no chatting in a hallway and using chat god, etc. And if they stand on the flag spot the deserve to be fragged, IMO. That is worse than continual katas.
You're arguing.
Do not argue with me on this issue.
You will get dominated
Ha! I challenge thee! I will argue with you all you want! Just beware: I may be Lightside MOST of the time, but I show no mercy if I think I am right in an arguement.
*Smirks* Just read this thread in which only a total dumba$$ tried to argue with me:
http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=125092)
If I need to elaborate on something I will. As it stands that thing is old yet still valid.
Though I should add stuff about the superior Dual Double Lunge and staff yellow twitch.
As for blue vs. red, that isn't really much of an issue as blue has inferior range, inferior block and inferior guard penetration. Plus since you have red you have yellow and blue on hold and can switch dynamically.
Lastly, I never called staff a cheat, only that it's overpowered and cheesy. Which it is.
Have you ever actually tried the Saber Staff?
You sound like you've argued this in the past, so I'll just go and quote your old posts.
Hey, even I will admit that there are such things as skilled staffers.
There we go. =)
My main problem with staff is that from a technical standpoint, it utterly eviscerates single in both speed and power/damage over time...
The Single Saber has range. Range (in the hands of a skilled player) beats the damage of the Saber Staff.
And the backflip escape that no other style has an equivalent to...
The backflip move is pretty useless - it's very difficult to actually hit somebody with it (as it is very easy to dodge), and if you're simply using it to evade, you'd be better off with a normal jump (so you're not locked in place).
And the gross Saber Offense imbalance in full force...
The Saber Staff doesn't have quite as much need for Saber Offense, true, but it is still certainly valuable. It does allow the saber to have a greater chance of breaking through an enemy block (don't get that mixed up with a saber lock, as many do - it does, of course, help with that too though).
Staff will tend to win vs single if they sit there and just abuse side slash sweeps if you do anything...
That's incredibly easy to beat - especially with the Single Saber (remember - range is your friend). On any good server a player slashing like that will be mowed down in seconds.
Single saber only for me. I prefer to have something called skill required than simply alternating left and right diagonals
Every saber has spammy/cheap moves (though out of them all, the Single Saber seems to have the most useful ones), and any player can use these. You say the Single Saber is the only one that requires skill, but have you really taken a look in depth at the other saber types? Many players, including myself, would go so far as to say that they require more skill to use properly. Perhaps it's because I played a lot of Jedi Outcast, but I find the Single Saber far easier to use than any other type.
I recall consistently killing you with yellow sideslash counter tactics
You said somewhere that you dislike the side-slashing windmill tactics of the Saber Staff, and yet you use the same tactics with the Single Saber?
The only real weapon yellow has against dual and staff...
Remember, the Single Saber comes with three styles that should be used as one.
Staff and dual are automatically unbalanced in FFA due to point spending issues and their relative power.
Covered above.
staff and dual DO have less options
Exactly. This makes them weaker. The element of surprise is a requirement when fighting skilled players. The Single Saber wins here, again.
You can switch to yellow, do it's sweep backstab, then switch on the second blade for nice damage via the second blade.
That doesn't really make much of a difference, actually.
I use both the Single Saber and the Saber Staff, and I perform significantly better when using the former. I believe it is easier to use.
That's all for now.
Edit: How dare people post things while I'm typing my message? =/
Read through some of it. I agree with you that you can spam the staff. Just as you can spam the single. Yes, he is a dumb@$$, but not for arguing. He was wrong, and wouldn't admit it. Yeah, you can butterfly all you want and spam it. Yes, you can use the wheel to attack. Did I not mention I fight with honor? I hate spammers like that, I'm on your side there. I merely don't think ALL saber staves are bad.
Are they overpowered? I never noticed. I can come out in the lead, but not more than a couple of kills in FFA, unless I am playing vs. Bots. Vs. Bots I come out 20 kills ahead. Vs. people, I can lead by 4 if I am extremely lucky, usually I am BEHIND in score. If the staff is overpowered, please enlighten me on how to take advantage of this.
Have you ever actually tried the Saber Staff?
You sound like you've argued this in the past, so I'll just go and quote your old posts.
There we go. =)
The Single Saber has range. Range (in the hands of a skilled player) beats the damage of the Saber Staff.
The backflip move is pretty useless - it's very difficult to actually hit somebody with it (as it is very easy to dodge), and if you're simply using it to evade, you'd be better off with a normal jump (so you're not locked in place).
The Saber Staff doesn't have quite as much need for Saber Offense, true, but it is still certainly valuable. It does allow the saber to have a greater chance of breaking through an enemy block (don't get that mixed up with a saber lock, as many do - it does, of course, help with that too though).
That's incredibly easy to beat - especially with the Single Saber (remember - range is your friend). On any good server a player slashing like that will be mowed down in seconds.
Every saber has spammy/cheap moves (though out of them all, the Single Saber seems to have the most useful ones), and any player can use these. You say the Single Saber is the only one that requires skill, but have you really taken a look in depth at the other saber types? Many players, including myself, would go so far as to say that they require more skill to use properly. Perhaps it's because I played a lot of Jedi Outcast, but I find the Single Saber far easier to use than any other type.
You said somewhere that you dislike the side-slashing windmill tactics of the Saber Staff, and yet you use the same tactics with the Single Saber?
Remember, the Single Saber comes with three styles that should be used as one.
Covered above.
Exactly. This makes them weaker. The element of surprise is a requirement when fighting skilled players. The Single Saber wins here, again.
That doesn't really make much of a difference, actually.
I use both the Single Saber and the Saber Staff, and I perform significantly better when using the former. I believe it is easier to use.
That's all for now.
Edit: How dare people post things while I'm typing my message? =/
On Range: The problem with this is that red, the style with the most range, is so painfully slow unless yawspeeded (i.e. you cheat) it is useless on anyone who turtles/only counters. Plus your moving speed is slowed allowing easy counters. Yellow, with #2 in range, fails to even consistently penetrate staff/dual's superior block and tends to go into knockback from it.
On Backflip: Very untrue. A backflip grants the staffer nearly invincible defense for almost no force use and no lagtime. It can be chained out of almost any move the staffer has, even butterfly. Plus, since it is a rising attack, if the singler gets hit it is so fast they do not block well and take massive head damage, usually to the tune of 60, 90 HP in worst-case scenario.
PLUS, it can be wiggled to make the staffer a defense god. If you thought it was decent before, wiggling it gives it more defense, more damage,a nd a higher chance of hitting.
On Saber Offense: This is so, but it is also so that said guard penetration is greater for a singler with equal levels in Offense.
On Normal Slash Spam Tactics: The problem is, the most consistent guard penetrating attack against such tactics is red style. Which is slow and is PROVEN to cause a significant delay in the user's movement. Thus, it is fairly easy for the staffer to evade red in contrast to the slowed down red user to evade staff. Increased block also comes into play.
On Spammy Specials: Which specials do single have that are not trounced by those on staff/dual? Lunge? Dual steals it and makes it better via the frontal invincibility granting Double Lunge. So what's left? Katas and DFAs. All of which root them to the spot and can be lunged or BFed past consistently unless the singler yaw-cheats (and even then Double Lunge still proves near infallable).
On Side Slashing: I'm angry at staff's version because yellow's has a chain limit while staff's does not, plus staff's has higher guard penetration, higher speed, and comparable damage.
Furthermore, there's the abominable yellow twitch. If you side swing with base yellow and switch to staff in the middle of a swing, you 'twitch' very rapidly, which allows a nearly flawless guard break vs. singles and somewhat less so vs. duals.
On Yellow Vs. Staff/Dual: This is so, but red has a critical weakness and thus I had to break down style uses seperately. Red is nonetheless the best against them overall, except for the speed weakness. Blue and Yellow simply fail to consistently guard break and Yellow leaves itself open for counters.
On Surprise: See Yellow vs. Staff/Dual. Blue and Yellow are simply nowhere near as effective against them as red, hence while you do have more options, most of them quite frankly suck butt.
On Sweep Backstab: It grants increased block, and more damage IS more damage.
I can see that this discussion relates to multiplayer, which I have never really played much, but in SP at least, singles also have a backflip attack, although I think it requires jump level 3. By the way, what is yawspeeding, and why is it considered cheating? If it's just turning during a move, then that's hardly cheating. Also, I agree the staff is definitely overpowered versus bots, but they are totally different from human players anyway (few actual humans have the reflexes to defend against a grip/push combo).
Yawspeed is editing some .cfg file to allow you to spin faster. It is a hack, and those caught using it are perma-banned and IP blocked.
When I say yaw-speeding, I mean turning the mouse sensitivity so high that exploits are possible. Exploits include spinning like a top after a red side slash, granting godlike speed, block, and possible sick multihit damage to the attack, wiggling the mouse at the end of a red side slash to produce a temporarily still blade that has awesome block and enemy block penetration plus damage... And so on.
Exploits of that kind for staff and dual include the near instant-kill and near-unblockable (bar dual backstab) spun butterfly, the near-invincible wiggled backflip, and the single lung-defeating spun Dual Saber Barrier.
On Backflip: ... massive head damage, usually to the tune of 60, 90 HP in worst-case scenario.
The damage it causes is irrelevant - it is easy to dodge if you know what you're doing.
On Normal Slash Spam Tactics: The problem is, the most consistent guard penetrating attack against such tactics is red style. Which is slow and is PROVEN to cause a significant delay in the user's movement.
Proven? It doesn't need to be proven - you can simply see the difference. >_>
So what's left? Katas and DFAs. All of which root them to the spot
Is that always a bad thing? Katas are pretty useless mostly, as they can be easily dodged. Therefore, the time to use them would be when you know it will hit, or can surprise an enemy with them - for example, performing a kata at the top of a lift, hitting an unsuspecting player. Here, being rooted to the spot would allow you to cover the whole area and annihilate the enemy. Certainly, in open areas, being rooted to the spot is suicide. But this doesn't apply everywhere.
Blue and Yellow are simply nowhere near as effective against them as red
That depends on the two players - I often see Yellow and Blue styles used to defeat Dual/Double Sabers. Easily.
The damage it causes is irrelevant - it is easy to dodge if you know what you're doing.
Proven? It doesn't need to be proven - you can simply see the difference. >_>
Is that always a bad thing? Katas are pretty useless mostly, as they can be easily dodged. Therefore, the time to use them would be when you know it will hit, or can surprise an enemy with them - for example, performing a kata at the top of a lift, hitting an unsuspecting player. Here, being rooted to the spot would allow you to cover the whole area and annihilate the enemy. Certainly, in open areas, being rooted to the spot is suicide. But this doesn't apply everywhere.
That depends on the two players - I often see Yellow and Blue styles used to defeat Dual/Double Sabers. Easily.
Back/Sideflip Continued: I was speaking in the context of dueling, in which damage isn't irrelevant... But the point is that it can be suddenly chained out of almost anything. If you get a block off a staff strike, semi-rare as that is, and move in for the kill, you stand a chance of being decked by a sudden flip (I apologize, I was including side flip in the backflip thing. Points mostly stand in backflip's case except for damage, it's still an excellent defense.).
On Katas/DFAs: While this is so, you can also jump over most of them or lunge past. They ARE however useful if the enemy is stupid enough to jump a LITTLE too close to your front too often. Shame that most JKAers ARE that stupid.
On Blue and Yellow: Yeah, you do. And I'm one of the people who does it. Pity usually the staffers suck outrageously and the singlers are good if said staffers lose to them consistently. That hardly damages the point.
You know, I am no n00b with the staff, and I just got my arse kicked on JA+. By SINGLE SABER wielders. If anything, the staff is at a disadvantage, because the range isn't so good.
i think staff/dual is easier to spam but hard to master versing good single users, HOWEVER when one master it, its extremely difficult to beat using single without poke/wiggle... especially if they just sit back and counter
Apparently, I haven't mastered it yet. I have a lot of rust to clean. I didn't know sabers could have rust...
By SINGLE SABER wielders. If anything, the staff is at a disadvantage, because the range isn't so good.
hard to master versing good single users
Exactly. The Saber Staff and Dual Sabers are naturally chaotic weapons (i.e. at first, the sabers seem to flail about randomly), and therefore they require a great deal of skill/time to use properly/accurately. The Single Saber, on the other hand, isn't chaotic. It swings exactly where you want, accurately, and at varying ranges/speeds, which you can set as you wish. It has the best accuracy and range of any saber type, while the Saber Staff and Dual Sabers require time and effort to be used well. I find the Single Saber to be an incredibly easy weapon to use.
The Staff and Dual sabers are unbalanced compared to the single sabers. Standard swings from Staffs/Duals do about the same amount of damage the Yellow Stance AND they have double the possible surface area in terms of blades. That's not even counting the special moves or the issue of the staff/dual animations going much faster than their single saber counterparts.
Actually, they do more damage than yellow over time on average due to marginally greater speed, greater chain capability, AND their tendency fdor their strikes to go higher than single. Words cannot describe how often I've been headshotted/instakilled by a staff diagonal that somehow went right past the red style swing coming at it.
The range deficiency the staff/duals have is laughable since they don't slow down the user like red style, the greatest saber in terms of range does. Thus, the staff or dualler can move back a bit, watch the legit red user miss, then go for the fast diagonal for an easy hit due to the slowdown.
The chaos of dual/staff works for their advantage, as you can pretty much let it do its thing and it'll let you win most of the time. Hell, most people who play me can vouch for my power over single, yet I can lose to diagonal staff charge tactics in an FFA, which even Only One Cannoli admits is rather cheap. It takes an inordinate amount of skill for a single saber user to overcome the inherent superiority of staff/dual, and quite frankly at this point it is inarguable.
Egg is also right. Staff/dual turtle tactics are almost impossible for single users to legitimately beat without resorting to cheating/exploits like poke or yawspin. I once got so angry with it that I counter-turtled an annoying, obviously skill-less counter-only staffer with yellow. The fight lasted like five minutes but I won with 10 HP left. **** like that should not have to happen.
The range deficiency the staff/duals have is laughable since they don't slow down the user like red style, the greatest saber in terms of range does. Thus, the staff or dualler can move back a bit, watch the legit red user miss, then go for the fast diagonal for an easy hit due to the slowdown.
A jump seems to work well enough.
The chaos of dual/staff works for their advantage, as you can pretty much let it do its thing and it'll let you win most of the time.
Not against a player that knows what he/she is doing.
It takes an inordinate amount of skill for a single saber user to overcome the inherent superiority of staff/dual, and quite frankly at this point it is inarguable.
I seem to manage fine.
LV, you appear miffed at the staff because you lost to one. There is a simple solution: Get better! I have to get better. If so powerful, the staff is, why do I lose with it? Hmm? I am no n00b, but I can lose. (Or maybe because in JA+ my Force Powers were unbound for some reason.) I am more suited to a NF duel, I suppose, b/c in that FFA game I was pwned in, the killers just used Grip all the time. Just about as cheap as the Staff, IMO. Using only Grip and Saber Throw is a cheap way to win. Not to mention, I bowed to my opponent in FFA and he was not so inclined. Last time I do that.
Oh, yeah, another point. If the lightsaber you face is too good for you, you do know you can usually use Force Powers, or switch to another lightsaber? If you choose Single, that's fine. I chose the Staff, for no other reason than it is my preference. I use it so I am balanced with the other gamers. Esp. this: I do none of the following:
I do not use Backstab more than once in a row.
I do not use the kata unless it is three-on-one or worse.
I do not use twirl at all, it's a stupid move.
I do not sneak up on someone in an FFA game.
I bow before a duel match.
If I use kick (yes, I do) then I wait for him to get up, or take that time to use Heal.
If my opponent has lost his saber, I wait for him to pick it up.
I have preset "say" commands congratulating my opponent, or berating myself if I do something n00bish (like falling off a cliff)
Yes, accidents do happen, like if we are playing base MP and he starts chatting, if I am in the middle of a swing, I may hit him. I do apologize.
The lightsaber is a weapon of honor in combat, and it galls me that there are some who abuse it. You are right there. But I am not one of those people. The saber staff really has identical range to the single. Here is why:
The staff usually attacks in a way that one blade attacks, and the other flails in midair. So, if there are two attackers, one in front and one off to the side, the staff may kill both at once. But so can your Red Stance. Even Yellow has a crack at killing one and wounding the other. Blue... you are usually moving around so fast it doesn't matter.
Dual sabers are better than the staff, IMO, because you are capable of attacking with one saber and throwing the other. You need 133t skills to pull that off, but it can be done. If you do, you can kill two at once. Just like the Staff. And like Red Stance.
I do not use twirl at all, it's a stupid move.
Heh, I often use the twirl accidentally - I'm used to the JO rolling system. >_>
If I use kick (yes, I do) then I wait for him to get up, or take that time to use Heal.
I find kick to be great in the right situations. It's especially fun when you're using Mind Trick - it doesn't affect your invisibility, so you can repeatedly kick somebody in the face.
Dual sabers are better than the staff, IMO
I find Dual Sabers to be the most difficult saber type to use (having to aim the two seperate blades at once), but yeah, they can be great when you master them.
Wielding two sabers would be hard if you actually had to wield them, but the only time I've seen something out of the ordinary with them is when I somehow threw both sabers (no mods like that that I'm aware of)
A jump seems to work well enough.
Not against a player that knows what he/she is doing.
I seem to manage fine.
1) Two problems with that. One, it is unreliable and you may get hit anyway due to the still-remaining slowdown. Two, it is extremely predictable, and since the staff/dual user is not under slowdown, they can easily meet you in midair after they realize what you are doing. So no, it does NOT 'work well enough'.
2) You keep telling yourself that... I've studied the topic of JA lightsaber combat extensively ever since the game came out (and even before with such JK2 mods as ForceMod II that had more styles), and it is DAMN clear that staff in particular (especially forward diagonals) has this nasty tendency for its attack to just get right past opposing single sabers even when they are clearly about to meet for a head-on collision. Heck, I've somehow gotten damaged by such a thing after a flawless red right-left back-to-forward diagonal sweep into a jump for headshot kill. Saying staff's chaotic nature doesn't almost universally help it is a joke.
3) Yay you. Got anything better than 'oh I don't think so' type statements? Better than my year+ period of experience in studying this matter, having dueled with some of the nastiest opponents on Bladeworks repeatedly and even won somewhat consistently (no jokes here, the better ones are absolute horrors)? I have seen it time and time again: At higher levels, a singler pretty much needs to use cheats or very Euro dodge tactics to beat a staff or a dual user even remotely consistently.
---
StaffSaberist: Oh please. You have no argument even worth considering except your personal experience, which chances are are pretty meager compared to my own.
While it is so that staffers can lose to singlers, it usually only happens consistently if the singler is notably better skilled in comparision, and/or the singler has read the opponent. The reverse is not even remotely true, as staff chargers for example have a one-size-fits-almost-all strategy that works on the grand majority of single NF duel opponents with no need for alteration (it's even nastier if they turn fast, but that's not as outrageously exploitative as red or yellow style doing it).
The only time Red has a chance or doing a forward and backward kill is either when one of the oppoments is at the very end of the arc, i.e. not really behind but more to the side, or on AN EXTREMELY LUCKY overhead. Yellow does not arc as much as that is even rarer without yawspin.
---
This is ridiculous. You two haven't been able to objectively contradict a single thing I've said on this issue. This is almost a waste of my time, but alas I like forced education.
That was intended as a joke, right? If you actually studied an entire year, you need to get out more, and/or play more JA. After your year of studying, the game has changed drastically. People now know how to find the flaws with the Staff, and they have defeated them. I was not the only staff wielder in that FFA game, there were several others. They used tactics identical to mine, and they were SABERED. In fact, we staffers were 4th, 5th, and 6th out of 8-9 (the ninth dropped in and out, probably a slow connection) Not the worst, but far from the best that game.
No, I cannot speak for the others. But they sure as hell didn't act like they were n00b's. They fought well, and there were plenty of points traded. I got several kills quickly - then they caught on.
I have no arguement? I do not spend years comparing charts and tables that OTHER USERS CREATED, it's a waste of my time. I speak from the battles I have fought, the kills I have scored, and the unbelievable defeats I've gotten. Like, getting good hits on an opponent, seeing him swing in Red, I try evasive, I succeed, and charge again - next thing I know, I'm dead. This is not normal, I lose less than 20% of my duels. I may not be so good at FFA, (thought I'd try, though) but I am *not* a n00b by *any* means. Here's to you, LV.
As long as you try to dissect me, I'll give it a try. YOU appear to be pissed off because you lose to staves all the time. Do you realize all the swings of the Staff are nearly the same? The only difference is whether the attack is in front, to the side, or top-down, which I might add, is a BASIC move for all sabers, heck, blasters can do that if you snipe.
Meager, eh? Don't turn this into a flame war; we will both get banned for it. We are not argueing about skill, we are argueing about the sabers themselves. Don't confuse using your experience as an example with using that as your entire arguement. Don't be ridiculous, Raven balanced these sabers. The benefits of the singles are that many more 133t comboes are possible, the dual advantage is the ability to throw and melee strike, and the staff has more raw damage - if you are dumb enough to let it hit you without trying evasive.
You think I can construct a series of 1,000+ character posts speaking of the more mechanical aspects of saber vs. saber combat out of no observation data against some of the most badass and some of the most laughable staffers, dualists, and singlers around? Of course my NF saber duel experience is valid, it is beyond extensive. Furthermore, you can't say mine is invalid without invalidating your own. The difference is that I have been able to describe very clear ability differences that are readily observable with extended play.
I actually don't lose to staves all the time, usually I dominate them utterly (unless they can one-shot me due to Meatgrinder's double damage). Kindly don't attempt to discern why I say what I say when I've already indicated why I do so: It is inherently obvious that there is an imbalance that puts the singler at a disadvantage versus the other two saber types. Regardless of my (actually pretty stellar for a non-cheating single) record, this near-fact remains regardless of your bluster.
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The slashes for staff are nearly the same, yes... Almost universally unbalanced.
Side slash? Superior to almost all others, only dual side spam exceeds its power due to its greater arc. Fast, forever chainable, good damage, tendency to knock away single sabers.
Overhead slash? Fast guard breaker with high chance at standing headshot damage. Only dual gets a better ovehead attack because of its screwed up ability to get a consistent headshot on somebody BEHIND the attacker.
Forward diagonal slashes? Fastest and best in the game with the potential to easily ignore single guard while providing fairly decent defensive power itself. It is also infinitely chainable with almost no speed penalty, thus allowing the staffer to mow almost anything down.
The only slash even remotely average is the underside slash back to forward.
Defensive manuevers of the staff? Well, let's see...
Backflip: So fast you really can't jump after it even remotely consistently. Good recovery time allowing for a jump-away if the enemy gets close, but nonetheless inferior to...
Side flip: Nigh unstoppable (especially if wiggled), if the enemy gets close to attack they risk getting suddenly damaged with decent chance of getting headshotted. Staff recovery on landing is minimal, allowing a jump-away almost immediately, killing the idea of a semi-consistent lunge counter. Has this nasty tendency to block standing diagonal red strikes utterly due to impressive defensive power.
Not even DUAL has a defensive resume this badass short of ass-fighting (just using dual backstab while backing up into the enemy with overheads. In DBS somehow the totally still second blade is lethal and has practically absolute back defense, even trumping the nearly almighty and unbelievably cheap spun butterfly) and Double Lunge.
---
You've provided no mechanical argument to refute my claims, only conjecture. Surely you can do better.
2) You keep telling yourself that... I've studied the topic of JA lightsaber combat extensively ever since the game came out
And I haven't?
Got anything better than 'oh I don't think so' type statements?
Got anything better than "you will get dominated", "do not argue with me" type statements?
This is almost a waste of my time, but alas I like forced education.
"You keep telling yourself that..."
a singler pretty much needs to use cheats or very Euro dodge tactics to beat a staff or a dual user even remotely consistently
...
I actually don't lose to staves all the time, usually I dominate them utterly
So what's the problem? Do you cheat then?
And I haven't?
Got anything better than "you will get dominated", "do not argue with me" type statements?
"You keep telling yourself that..."
So what's the problem? Do you cheat then?
1) You have not demonstrated even remotely extensive knowledge on the subject by way of valid counterpoints, so I'd have to say... no. No you haven't.
2) Well, how about the series of monstrous posts I have made quite clearly illustrating the dramatic technical abilities of the various saber types? You know, the posts you seem to have so much trouble responding to with valid counterpoints, giving out one sentence quips (that I have effortlessly crushed as I am doing now) regarding specific details and ignoring the rest?
I dare an objective person to step up and tell me where I'm wrong in if they have the ability to do so. If I'm wrong, prove it. Do what the two fools who have been arguing against me have been unable to do with knowledge, and have been trying to do with conjecture and insinuation.
3) This is effectively forced education... You refuse to see the truth in what I've written, but in the very least I'm going to drill it into the skull of every objective observer of this thread that you are dead wrong. It's rather telling that no one has stepped to your defense with a half-decent argument.
4) Might want to post the rest of the first statement... You know, the 'AT HIGHER LEVELS' part. My second statement has no such qualifier, which means that it indicates a subjective average overall result based on all players I have fought.
Surely you can argue better than this... You had to misquote me to get one of your four one-sentence points for crying out loud.
that I have effortlessly crushed as I am doing now
I'd hardly say you're crushing my replies. You still haven't convinced me that the Single Sabers are under-powered, and you're making yourself look more arrogant with every post. Such as with the following comments.
the two fools ... You will get dominated. ... Do not argue with me.
We're fools because we believe something different to you? Heh...
You have not demonstrated even remotely extensive knowledge on the subject by way of valid counterpoints
I'm still waiting for you to answer my original question. Have you ever actually tried using a Saber Staff for more than five seconds? You say you have incredible knowledge of the entire saber system - yet you say that the backflip move can be chained in and out of other moves, when it actually requires you to have completely finished an attack (i.e. when the cool-down is finished).
And this thread was supposed to be about JA+.
So... we are fools if we disagree, LV? Your ego is as large as this JK forum, pal. If the Single Saber is so underpowered, SHOW US THE DAMN PROOF. Give us links to the official damage table of each JA saber. Allow us to compare the stats, right down to the decimal numbers. Basically, you have told us these tables exist, and we are fools to disagree. OK, if they exist, GIVE US AT LEAST A LINK, HERE! :mad: We need some better proof than "You are an idiot because you disagree with the tables I have been studying and will not show you."
Let's not resort to flaming here guys. I split off this thread so you can discuss this subject... and do so in a civilized fashion.
Thanks!
OK. I still would like to see these charts, LV. Then, we can finally end this flame war. Oh, and before you twist that last sentence, I do not tire of arguing. I tire of dealing with you time and again, like an insect you just cannot squish, no matter how many times you step on it!
I am not afraid to admit it IF I am wrong. However, I would very much like to see the same material you studied, and to know how official the source is. After that, we can discuss it, and debate a little more about the numbers, and this thread can quietly slip into the wind. Deal?
So... we are fools if we disagree, LV? Your ego is as large as this JK forum, pal. If the Single Saber is so underpowered, SHOW US THE DAMN PROOF. Give us links to the official damage table of each JA saber. Allow us to compare the stats, right down to the decimal numbers. Basically, you have told us these tables exist, and we are fools to disagree. OK, if they exist, GIVE US AT LEAST A LINK, HERE! :mad: We need some better proof than "You are an idiot because you disagree with the tables I have been studying and will not show you."
The generic swing damage for double sabers is 70 and 80 for medium.
Gonna make this short and simple.
It depends on the user. Generally, staff is easy to spam and get random kills...hence the reason many swarm and use it in a terrible spamming way. They really have no clue how to use it other than spamming. This has caused poor reputation for the staff. Why? Most people have no idea how to use it in a skillfull matter.
Groups of people should not lookdown on people for using any saber until they see how they handle the saber. More than likely, it will be another noob staffer, true...but not always.
In my case, I taught myself how to master the staff with carefully timed, individual swings...much like using it like a single. No sweeps, no spam, no specials, not even butterfly unless it's absolutely neccessary.
There are skilled staffers out there, which is why I'm a popular staffer....I'm no noobsticker. It just takes a lot of effort and skill to pull it off...which is what most are too lazy or unable to practice.
Single can kill in one good swing. The trick to survive it is mastering evading and blocking while successfully getting in and out without being touched.
Thank you, RTH. That may be the one point I have been trying to make. I suppose that makes me a less-experienced version of you. I use butterfly to escape, not kill. Anyway, I am going to go practice against Bots for a while.
Look, LV, I am sorry this got so heated. Yeah, the staff is easier to spam. And yes, there are more cheap moves. But nobody like that lasts for long, regardless of their fighting style. My choice of saber is based on personal preference alone. :)
Hotrod: It is so that single can kill in one good swing without cheating via the overhead back jump move, the catch is that only that one particular move can do it consistently (diagonal followed by jump and side swing followed by jump tend to just miss the instant kill mark presuming 100 HP and 25 shields), and said move leaves the single saberist wide (and I mean WIDE) open on the windup and recovery, with only I think three chains out of it assuming you don't jump: another overhead, a forward left short swing which has surprisingly bad block penetration and range for a red attack, and forward left short swing plus combo finisher overhead.
In contrast, while it is practically impossible (or at least I've never seen it) for staves to get a one-shot kill consistently without spinning butterfly, it is possible for staff to pretty reliably chain sideflip out of the majority of its moves, making it ridiculously risky to counter (unless you cheat as a single). For example, it is a fairly common scenario for a red user to send an attack down against a staffer who has just butterflied and should be recovering. What can happen is that the staffer then sideflips, which grants so much defense that the attack is usually utterly blocked judging from the white flashes and no enemy pain sounds. I mean, this is red style here. That should not be blockable so easily considering the hassle a user has to go through to land it and not get countered mercilessly.
As for evasion... Let's not kid ourselves. Unless the singler cheats, it is pretty easy to counter red for a staffer/dualists/yellow user after you get to a certain level. So what does that leave the single user to do against a staffer or a dualist, who is capable of far more guard-breaking damage over time? Use yellow. Which is demonstratably technically inferior in pretty much every fashion except forward strike range and single strike damage, which are both rather easily negated by the staff/dual's guard breaking tendencies, greater defense (lets not lie, yellow gets blocked ONE HELL OF A LOT by those two, and staff in theory gets a better yellow due to possible twitch abuse), and slightly greater speed. There's a reason that turtling works best on staves and duals (I'm leaning towards duals being best for it due to side swing arc and range).
I really can't buy the 'it depends on user' thing because staff.dual are just BETTER than single in multiple things, with single getting the short end of the stick with the most ways to blow past it.
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Saberist: It's not true that cheap staff tactics don't last long. Not true AT ALL. Have you even seen a really annoying staff or dual-using turtler, who doesn't attack unless to counter your swings? They last a VERY long time unless a single red user yaws past their block.
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And what's this about tables? I've never said anything about tables, I only mentioned observation data, which I actually have stored in my head from hours spent playing freaks. My only assertion regarding the data in and of itself is that it is very readily observable and confirmable at higher levels of NF saber play. I mean, do you really need a table to prove that staff and dual have better block, better guard penetration, and better damage/time due to them? Most of what I've stated becomes pretty obvious after awhile.
Gonna make this short and simple.
It depends on the user. Generally, staff is easy to spam and get random kills...hence the reason many swarm and use it in a terrible spamming way. They really have no clue how to use it other than spamming. This has caused poor reputation for the staff. Why? Most people have no idea how to use it in a skillfull matter.
Groups of people should not lookdown on people for using any saber until they see how they handle the saber. More than likely, it will be another noob staffer, true...but not always.
In my case, I taught myself how to master the staff with carefully timed, individual swings...much like using it like a single. No sweeps, no spam, no specials, not even butterfly unless it's absolutely neccessary.
There are skilled staffers out there, which is why I'm a popular staffer....I'm no noobsticker. It just takes a lot of effort and skill to pull it off...which is what most are too lazy or unable to practice.
Single can kill in one good swing. The trick to survive it is mastering evading and blocking while successfully getting in and out without being touched.
Exactly. ^^
LV, if I misread your posts, sorry. But that would end the debate, would it not? If we could see the numbers, what defensive/offensive bonuses the moves bring, and if we could compare the sabers, side by side, that would be the end of it. We could display such a thing for all to see, and we would see who is correct. If I am correct, fine. If you are correct, fine. If all of us are wrong to a certain degree, we can all agree that this has been an exercise in futility. I am going to look for them myself.
I find it... well... I can't even think of a suitable word for it... wee both base our arguements on what we have witnessed, and what we think. Nobody has actually found hard data on this subject. Well, I am going to try to do that. I will report back, and if I find anything conclusive, I will report back.
Again, sorry for letting this get so heated. It is not the Jedi Way, is it? ;)
There are no objective tables for the saber styles short of I think maximum possible damage (Yellow style does NOT consistently do 80 a swing except on head strike, and staff usually pulls around 45-60 a swing unless it gets a headstrike) and animation speed. Everything else is probability-based and random if I recall, with some styles getting a higher observable probability to block/penetrate guard.
Hm. I didn't find anything, right there. A shame. Somebody should put one together. But yeah, nothing conclusive.
About the Staff breaking guard with diagonal hits: True, but not too many duelists hold still. Esp. if they are Blue Style. They try to run rings around the opponent. Heck, I do a lot of Force Jump during duels, it puts space between myself and my opponent, giving me a chance to use Heal/Drain. I never hang around while Red Stylists get a top-down hack on me. That's silly.
Speaking of strong side-swipes, holding down the Step Right key (D by default) does a side-swipe in Red Style that does the damage of Red style with the speed of almost Yellow. Then, during recovery, the player can do a backward roll to escape the ill effects of Red Style. You may test that one out for yourself; it works well, and is an excellent way to take 60+ HP of an opponent. And it isn't considered cheap unless that's all you do. If I play Red Style for a while, I use that if my Force Mana is depleted, and so is my health. I do that, and even the game a bit. Heck, that works well vs. Staves, or anything, except that irritating Ugnaught bot that just uses a blaster and runs. I rarely take damage from him... :)
Special non-force draining moves are your friend in combat. Blue style has a bottom-up slice that no other style can do. Yellow style... well, has few Dueling advantages, but is good for multiple opponents, esp. the backwards side-swipe, if you don't use it much.
My point is the Single Sabers has tricks up it's sleeve to counter the Staff and Dual sabers, even if those weapons do have more raw power.
There are no objective tables for the saber styles short of I think maximum possible damage (Yellow style does NOT consistently do 80 a swing except on head strike, and staff usually pulls around 45-60 a swing unless it gets a headstrike) and animation speed. Everything else is probability-based and random if I recall, with some styles getting a higher observable probability to block/penetrate guard.
Plus, the main factor of doing damage with the basejka system is related to where/how long the saber animation places the blade in another player's body. The basejka saber has no mechinism for materials to resisting or deflect blades after they are hit. As such, the staff animations are set up in a way that pretty much guantrees both blades @ least touching the targets.
Personally, I despise the whole baseJKA saber combat system. There is an absurd number of illogicities and imbalances throughout the entire system.
Play staffsaber for an hour or two. Then switch to single saber blue style. Tell me how 'balanced' it is.
Things that annoy me:
Why do the staffsaber and dual sabers have FASTER animations than single saber BLUE stance?
Why does the red stance exist AT ALL? (LIGHTSABERS DO NOT WEIGH 20KG, PEOPLE!)
What's with the horribly inconsistent 'blocking'?
Personally, I'll stick with movie battles for my saber combat fix. Base JKA is only fun in single-player.. faaar too many lame saberists for me to enjoy myself. Besides the fact that the sabering system itself is ridiculous in all its forms. It was obviously tailored to the single-player campaign, and not much consideration was given to multiplayer balancing, if any.
Staff style is faster than Blue Style? I didn't notice.
Personally, I despise the whole baseJKA saber combat system. There is an absurd number of illogicities and imbalances throughout the entire system.
....
Personally, I'll stick with movie battles for my saber combat fix. Base JKA is only fun in single-player.. faaar too many lame saberists for me to enjoy myself. Besides the fact that the sabering system itself is ridiculous in all its forms. It was obviously tailored to the single-player campaign, and not much consideration was given to multiplayer balancing, if any.
There's no accounting for taste, but c'mon. If that isn't way off base.
The single player system is NOTHING like the multiplayer saber system. And the SP version is much more random and floaty than you'll see in even the laggiest games. Now if you want to talk about cheap moves, take a look at SP with their walking katas and spinning DFAs, etc. The only thing that prevents it from being over in .05 seconds is that the sabers do jack for damage (unless you turn on the carefully hidden morerealistic cvar).
And like many other folks, you judge the entire game based on the saber system, as if that's the only type of gameplay that exists.
Each to his own, but still, it sounds like you don't even remember what the regular game was like! Is Movie Battles II only about dueling? If not, then the same logic doesn't apply to that one either. There's much more than just sabering to this game...
Yes, you know, you can usually get the Flechette, AKA "Jedi-Killer", and spike your enemies with sabers. In duels, though, not many have the Jedi-Killer in the map. Hey, we could do that... right? j/k
Personally, I'll stick with movie battles for my saber combat fix. Base JKA is only fun in single-player.. faaar too many lame saberists for me to enjoy myself. Besides the fact that the sabering system itself is ridiculous in all its forms. It was obviously tailored to the single-player campaign, and not much consideration was given to multiplayer balancing, if any.
Yeah, that's why I rewrote the saber system for OJP Enhanced.
The single player system is NOTHING like the multiplayer saber system. And the SP version is much more random and floaty than you'll see in even the laggiest games. Now if you want to talk about cheap moves, take a look at SP with their walking katas and spinning DFAs, etc. The only thing that prevents it from being over in .05 seconds is that the sabers do jack for damage (unless you turn on the carefully hidden morerealistic cvar).
I think it's due to the sabers automatically bouncing instantanously into an attack after a blade-on-blade impact. That's why the CPU seems to randomly suddenly just chop into you after a block and kills you.