Why? They'd be hunting shadows. They are not potential threats if nobody can train them. Falling on a holocron is not nearly as good as falling on a teacher.
They are potential threats because they have the capacity to become Jedi! To leave them alone would be stupid... and it would require almost no effort to eliminate them.
You underestimate the power of holocrons... Exar Kun used one to corrupt many Jedi to his cause.
If that was so, why wasn't the Empire after Luke before his encounter with the droids?
If you cannot argue effectively, then you should not argue at all. What do you call how the Empire sends stormtroopers to destroy Luke's home and the sandcrawler. There's also that relatively minor incident of the Death Star... :rolleyes:
I thought even you would be able to know such obvious facts.
And no True Sith or Exile in K1 is a poor example. During the time of K1, it was uncertain if the game would do well enough to make a sequel or not. Thus starting to talk about characters in a potentiel sequel would only seem weird if there is no sequel.
In KOTOR I, they do not explain how Revan fell to the Dark Side. Sure, they explain about the Star Forge, but it was obvious Revan was evil before he found the Star Maps.
Anyway, the explanations were clear. The Sith targeted the Jedi, not the potentiel Jedi.
Why did Anakin kill the younglings? After Anakin was through the Jedi, no one could have trained them (Yoda and Obi-Wan could not risk being exposed), so why kill them?
I think that killing Force sensitive children is a serious enough information to be mentionned somewhere in the game.
Just because they didn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Do the Sith Troopers on Manaan brush their teeth? Probably. Do they mention it? No.
You agree obviously that using the Dark Side force powers does not corrupt enough (or at all).
It does corrupt. It just takes a while.
You also agreed that changing alignment during combat just because of the Force power you're using is not fitting with the story-based RPG genre.
It would not fit in well, but it would be realistic.
Yet, your whole argument rested upon that single fact, that using rage and passion (therefore Dark Side powers) would make the character eviler.
There is a difference. You could use lightning, though it would corrupt you over a long time.
If you used passion to fuel your attacks and the power of the Dark Side to dominate your movements, that would corrupt you, though it would take less time.
Besides, discussion for another thread.
Backing out of it, eh?
look at Anakin. Light Side-Dark Side-Light Side.
Light Side: A little over a decade. Dark Side: several decades.
With Revan... Dark Side: a couple years. Light Side: A few years...
Also, note that there's not enough DS or LS points in the game to make you really a flip-flopper. Besides, who gets to the Light, falls to the Dark and comes back to the Light and then falls back to the Dark again all in one game?
You yourself said that you should be able to change your alignment in KOTOR III even if you'd determined it in KOTOR I! We are not talking about one game! You are undermining your own arguments.
I did not accuse you of anything.
perhaps you want JK of the Old Republic...
But not the resolution. THose are completely different things.
Not at all.
Continuation: Something going on. Resolution: Something ending.
If you cannot argue effectively, then you should not argue at all. What do you call how the Empire sends stormtroopers to destroy Luke's home and the sandcrawler. There's also that relatively minor incident of the Death Star...
I thought even you would be able to know such obvious facts.
Umm... they didn't send Stormtroopers to destroy "Luke's" home or the Sandcrawlers. They were sent to retrieve the droids and the plans for the Deathstar. If anyone got in the way (ergo an immediate threat, not potential) then they were dealt with.
They didn't even know who "Luke" was... and if it were some other no-name family that gained possession of the droids, their fate would've been the same as Luke's mishap ;)
What about the Deathstar? again, Vader sensed Obi-Wan, not Luke... Luke wasn't the pivotal plot point at that time in the movie and wasn't even thought of as a threat until the space battle ravine scene when Vader mentions the all important quote "The Force is strong with this 'one'..."
Not "Luke", not "My Son".. but "one"... again, he was nothing to Vader but another fly to swat at...
Until Dagobah, the introduction of Yoda.. and the training Luke received afterwards did he even cause Vader to have a second thought on who this "Luke" person was...
They are potential threats because they have the capacity to become Jedi! To leave them alone would be stupid... and it would require almost no effort to eliminate them.
You've never answered their capacity to become Sith too. Besides, is a realistic assumption for a few thousand Sith to go look for Force Sensitive children in a galaxy with Billions and over Billions of inhabitants? They'd have to bomb to oblivion who knows how many worlds.
If you cannot argue effectively, then you should not argue at all. What do you call how the Empire sends stormtroopers to destroy Luke's home and the sandcrawler. There's also that relatively minor incident of the Death Star... :rolleyes:
Look at ChaiNz.2da' post
In KOTOR I, they do not explain how Revan fell to the Dark Side. Sure, they explain about the Star Forge, but it was obvious Revan was evil before he found the Star Maps.
It wasn't that obvious. Though you are right that a few clues could be gathered to make that conclusion.
There are clues.
For killing Force Sensitive children, there was none.
Why did Anakin kill the younglings? After Anakin was through the Jedi, no one could have trained them (Yoda and Obi-Wan could not risk being exposed), so why kill them?
Because they already had training. See how Jett killed a bunch of Clone Troopers before going down? Could a child with no training, no lightsaber, no knowledge about his powers, no training whatsoever cut down so many enemies?
Just because they didn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Do the Sith Troopers on Manaan brush their teeth? Probably. Do they mention it? No.
They didn't mention it because it was unimportant. Killing Force Sensitive children however, is a very important thing.
It does corrupt. It just takes a while.
It would not fit in well, but it would be realistic.
There is a difference. You could use lightning, though it would corrupt you over a long time.
If you used passion to fuel your attacks and the power of the Dark Side to dominate your movements, that would corrupt you, though it would take less time.
Obviously, you're just avoiding the argument here. That's simply not how it works in the KotOR story-based RPG. You even agreed that it wouldn't fit well.
There's an old saying that we old members of Geebeedotcom use:
"Gameplay>Realism"
Backing out of it, eh?
No, taking it where it is relevent.
Light Side: A little over a decade. Dark Side: several decades.
With Revan... Dark Side: a couple years. Light Side: A few years...
What exactly would be the problem with time? What if Vader saved his son and came back to the light 5 years after RotS?
Time is rather unimportant, it is the events that are. You can look at many other stories of Light Side Jedi falling to the Dark and getting back to the Light in a matter of years.
You yourself said that you should be able to change your alignment in KOTOR III even if you'd determined it in KOTOR I! We are not talking about one game! You are undermining your own arguments.
No, I also said that MY PC will be a NEW one. You again, assume that you're going to play as Revan and that my opinion is the same.
Continuation: Something going on. Resolution: Something ending.
Thank you for the definitions. I feel very smarter now.
It may be different in definition, but in practice what are you going to do?
There are many reasons why NOT to include Revan and the Exile as PC.
This thread and your "let's destroy one of KotOR's core gameplay mechanic" arguments prove once more why it's not a good idea to include them.
This thread and your "let's destroy one of KotOR's core gameplay mechanic" arguments prove once more why it's not a good idea to include them.i entirely agree. so far Devon, your entire bit of arguements have seemed to be nothing more than speculation that have very few bases to which you can back them up.
second, calling for the end of one of the core mechanics of the game (choosing your character's alignment throughout the story) is not something developers are going to pay much attention to. and the easy answer is simply money. most gaming franchises don't bother changing core mechanics unless they think it will make a large benefit to the franchise as a whole, and therefore make the sequel sell better. even then, its always a gamble since the core mechanics are usually what define a franchise.
in the case of the Kotor franchise, removing the ability to choose your alignment throughout the story would be a massive departure to what has already been established as one of the best aspects of the game. go ahead and actually read some of the game reviews: it was a brilliant innovation to the story-based RPG. to remove it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, and it would more than likely cost both LA and whomever develops it a large amount of money.
thirdly, its also been well established in this poll (
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=150699) that an overwhelmingly large majority of people within this fan-base at LucasForums want to see a new PC as the main character. do we care how its implemented? not really as long as it makes sense story-wise. what you're proposing is a gross simplification that leaves hardly any creativity for the developers to work with. and it also means that your arguements will largely fall on deaf ears. if you don't believe me, then go ahead and number the nay-sayers in this thread and compare that number to the number of positive responses. and while you're at it, go ahead and number the positive responses from regular forum goers that have been around in the fan community for a long time.
edit: what the heck, i'll even start a new thread with this same title and make sure it has a poll in it that asks "Should the ability to deturmine your PC's alignment during the story be removed?". and, of course, merge the threads. but, not unless you want me to.
stingerhs: Alignment is, if I understand it correctly, the sum of your past deeds. Yet, I think it cannot 'judge' the goodness of a PC's character accurately - Not because I think it unfeasible to represent morality on a scale (a scale which exists in all our minds), but rather because that scale is subjective. This would be where lukeiamyourdad's 'gameplay vs reality' comes in.
With that said, to all: I must clarify that I've only played KotOR (which I bought in 03 and completed many times). <paragraph deleted>
Devon's idea of separate Light and Dark campaigns is feasible, I think. However, might I propose that they do not remain two separate paths, but rather are only different starting points for our PC? In this way, the PC would not have to be morally neutral at the beginning, yet the potential for falling to evil, or redeeming him/herself would exist.
Feel free to correct what I wrote!
I agree there must be only one end to this saga, but I think its possible to make the same end for a darkside or lightside pc. It would not happen the same way but the result would be the same.
Basically Devon's Idea of ripping out one of KotOR's core mechanics is.. forgive me but plain stupidity. The idea and ability to as you call it, 'flip-flop' has been one of the favorite aspects of the game, as Stingerhs said, read the reviews, you'd probably get one in a thousand saying your idea. Whats wrong with going dark side- lightside - darkside etc over a period of a few years? As for the arguement about the corruption with dark side use, look at Kotor 1, the majority of Dark Jedi you meet will pull off Force Absorb then engage you in combat, does that mean Dark Siders would be converted to the light?
Also in claiming about the Dark Side usage and falling beyond redemption, look at Ajunta Pall, dead for what a few milleniums and yet he still wants to go back to the light, the corruption of the dark side depends on the character's will, also the fact that IN kotor 1 and 2 you can load up your character with dark force powers and yet keep getting lightside points, odd form of corruption? it depends on the character's will if they get corrupted.
now i can't be bothered scrolling down to look at the rest of your arguements.. damn too sleepy... next time get a few more arguements to back up before you try destroying KotOR :cowdance
PS: personally I don't care whether you come back as Revan, Exile or a new PC, long as eventually one of these days teh game gets wrapped up. :ears1:
EDIT: oh yeah Stingerhs don't take offence if I use your 'Core Mechanics' word... seems just more sophisticated then 'Game Alignment Thingy', i apologise b/c ppl seem to slap me for using another person's words
I'd have to agree with most of the people here and say that changing the alignment system in the way you suggested is bad idea. While I think it could use some changes especially with Light side masters drawing upon the Dark Side of the force. I think this should affect the characters alignment after awhile but it doesnt have to be a major shift just something remind you that using the Dark Side of the force has consequences.
I also have to disagree with you needing to play as Revan or the Exile to continue or end thier stories. This game could have nothing to do with either of them and as far as we know their stories as far as KOTOR is concerned could be finished. Lots of games have left main characters futures up in the air never to be offically decided. The chances are this game will be done by a new developer(unless thier was an annoucement I am unaware of) who may shift the KOTOR series in a different direction. Personally I would the love it if the story was about rebuilding the Jedi Order and we were presented with a different main enemy just as long as they arent just some random new super powerful bad guy who just showed up in this galaxy yesterday. I think a new ambitous Exchange boss would make an intresting villian. He/she realizes that with the Republic in shambles and with the Jedi and Sith gone(even thougth they really arent) they have one hell of an opportunity to set up the Exchange as the domiant power in the galaxy.
You could start out halfway down your chosen path, that way you'd have to fight to redeem or just completly fail to fall. But atleast you hafta work toward something (as opposed to just being 'gray' off the bat). I don't care who you are, you've either led a life of bad or a life of good, and it should show.
Over a period of decades, not several years.
Darth Vader "flipped" (to use your term) from the darkest of dark guys back to the light in a matter of minutes at the end of ROTJ.
As a matter of fact, his "fall" in ROTS didn't seem to take too terribly long either, once he knew there was something he wanted/needed from the dark side.
Where does "decades" come into play?
vader "flipped" just cause of the fact luke was the son of the woman he loved that much since he was a child. i think everybody would come to this in a situation like that, no matter how evil you are.
plus, i think this discussion bout anakin/vader is pretty useless in a thread bout a kotor3 thang.
sure, hes a good example of fallin to the darkside, but whatever. it doesnt matter to this games.
but a decision of revans/exiles gender/alignment at the startup would be good for speeding up development and savin time for more worth content, even if u start as a new pc or as one of them. u can lean all the dialoques to that starting point or choose different places to start at just of your decisions at the beginning.
so i might give a 'go on' for this.
Do you have people have nothing better to do? You're about a month late for the debate...
Sorry Devon but i thing your idea would destroy all the good thing in kotor, the light/darth side system used in the 1 and 2 is great.
Do you have people have nothing better to do? You're about a month late for the debate...
Sorry Devon, I must have missed the post in which you defined a time-limit for this discussion. You might, in all your endeavors to be as negative and argumentative as you seem to be in this thread, keep in mind that not everyone sees these things as soon as they're posted. And some of us are relatively new to the Lucas Forums and may have, however unworthy of your superior and all-knowing intellect, opinions of our own that we wish to express.
1500 posts. Don't YOU have any have better have things have to have do?
Revan and the Exile's alignments have been pretty much determined in the previous two games. Which is exactly why KOTOR 3 will be about a new character, just like the fact that both those characters have already increased in their powers.
Mark it down. KOTOR 3 will not have Revan or the Exile as the main PC.
Mark it down. KOTOR 3 will not have Revan or the Exile as the main PC.
Quoted for emphasis! :D
Umm... they didn't send Stormtroopers to destroy "Luke's" home or the Sandcrawlers. They were sent to retrieve the droids and the plans for the Deathstar. If anyone got in the way (ergo an immediate threat, not potential) then they were dealt with.
They didn't even know who "Luke" was... and if it were some other no-name family that gained possession of the droids, their fate would've been the same as Luke's mishap ;)
What about the Deathstar? again, Vader sensed Obi-Wan, not Luke... Luke wasn't the pivotal plot point at that time in the movie and wasn't even thought of as a threat until the space battle ravine scene when Vader mentions the all important quote "The Force is strong with this 'one'..."
Not "Luke", not "My Son".. but "one"... again, he was nothing to Vader but another fly to swat at...
ok this isnt exactly write palpi told vader about the one who destroyed the d star and he said it was his son and he told him to search his feelings
but at this time vader was more concered about how kenobi disapeared before he struck
ok this isnt exactly write palpi told vader about the one who destroyed the d star and he said it was his son and he told him to search his feelings
but at this time vader was more concered about how kenobi disapeared before he struck
Perhaps. But none of this started until the 2nd movie (ep V) ;)
The time in question was during the 1st (or Ep IV rather) in which Luke wasn't considered a factor. Even on the Deathstar (pre 1st destruction)... it was Obi Wan with his band of merry people... even Luke at that time was just another person blasting Stormtroopers... no one was considered a significant threat in Vader's "Force Sense"...
Ahh... it's been a LONG LONG time since I've posted here and I see that there are changes in the site... all is looking well! Anyway... back on topic...
I think there should be morality stuff (DS and LS) because this is Star Wars, afterall, and you are a Jedi. Therefore there should be options which lead you towards the Light or the Dark.
However, I have a suggestion to make. The game makers (whoever they might be) could make things more SUBTLE. There should not be such a thing as dark/lightside POINTS. It's so unrealistic. I think to do without this 'point system' will make the game more interesting... and unpredictable...
well, more unpredictable is not necessarily better;
Normally, the prerequisit for someone acting in a good/evil way (and being good/evil) is for him to in a way wish to be good/evil or at least having emotions similar to hate/compassion etc.
However, for a game it should be extremly difficult to truly judge your emotions and intentions correctly (e.g. helping someone could be motivated both by simple compassion as well as wanting to keep him available as a tool for your own goals(Emperor helping Anakin after he was burnt at the end of Ep3 certainly was not an act of mere compassion))
I remember being pretty upset for getting DS points in KOTOR1 simply for saying "Even together they will be no match for me - remember that I once was a Sith Lord?" (which can be interpreted as arrogance, but also as an act of reassuring your party members (and yourself maybe :) )
Subtle dialogue optoins and the ability to manipulate people ingame would also require a very subtle and thought-through dialogue - and I am not sure if this is realistic or cost-effective for the producers... :(
But we can always hope :)
However, I have a suggestion to make. The game makers (whoever they might be) could make things more SUBTLE. There should not be such a thing as dark/lightside POINTS. It's so unrealistic. I think to do without this 'point system' will make the game more interesting... and unpredictable...
Sorry, but the game is based on WotC D20 RPG system, so you are stuck with the current LS/DS Point System. Besides, there has to be some sort of scale to indicate where your PC is in alignment. :roleyess:
Well, there's something I'd like to see is a way to convert excess LS/DS points into something.
For example, if you've already achieved Dark Side Mastery and you get more DS points, in the current state of things, nothing happens.
I'd like to get something for my efforts after getting mastery.
*copied from another thread*
the biggest (and only) part that annoyed me in kotor 1 & 2 was, that u have to fight one and the same thing. same way, same quests, no matter if your light or darkside. it wasnt like in one of the movies. u just get through somewhere in the middle of it to choose something at the end to the point where it would start what i'd like to see.
it would be cool to choose sides at the beginning and still got the alignment thing variable like it was in k1&2, that u still can decide to switch side or go deeper with one, with different starting points, different plots depending on choices in the beginning, different ways through the whole game.. like the alien versus predator games, one story shown through 2 point of views or somthing. or one plot but more variety in choices with real acting characters, like when u go darkside ppl dont wanna talk to u, run in fear or attack u. stuff like that. not like this "awww your dark, let me convert you and let me answer all your questions" o0 gotta be more dramatic.
so that u fight real jedi as a dark, real sith as a light one, and not this gangs-garbage all the time till u meet the first one.
cause thats what made the movies so exiting: one story over 6 episodes. and this games feel like a rush through all the 6 movies story related.
and i bet that there will be no other part after a third kotor, if there will be a third at all.
Well, there's something I'd like to see is a way to convert excess LS/DS points into something.
For example, if you've already achieved Dark Side Mastery and you get more DS points, in the current state of things, nothing happens.
I'd like to get something for my efforts after getting mastery.
Well said. Yup.. there should be motivation for getting excess LS/DS points. Perhaps with each excess point and depending on your class, it will give a bonus point to your stats (i.e. +1 strength for Guardian, Wisdom for Consular, etc.)
Getting LS/DS mastery was pretty much the end of it.
^^^^
Giving stat points is a little too much for LS or DS points.
Well, there's something I'd like to see is a way to convert excess LS/DS points into something.
For example, if you've already achieved Dark Side Mastery and you get more DS points, in the current state of things, nothing happens.
I'd like to get something for my efforts after getting mastery.
You mean something like, if you have DS Mastery and you get say 5 DS points it would instead add like 5 to your Force Point pool?
While it doesn't sound like much it would represent your further connection to the DS of the Force. The same could go for LS Mastery and gaining LS points.
:D
I am of the opinion that neutral force powers should be granted per level up, but aligned force powers should be learned in some manner or another rather than just granted. So you could have an option to learn certain force powers according to how strong your alignment is (how many alignment points you have), for example (and only an example), kill at 50%, force storm at 75%, and force crush at 100% DS alignments, respectively. The same for the light side. With the majority (the non-spectacular) of the aligned force powers being learnable at certain levels, the ones learnable at certain alignment levels would be the cooler powers as a sort of alignment reward. As an added bonus, if your alignment changes you don't lose the knowledge of the powers you've learned as alignment bonuses but you do lose the ability to use the powers. I don't know how difficult it would be to incorporate into the game, but it makes a certain sense to me.
I think it would be quite hard to implement for Neutral characters like Jolee and Kreia. They do lean slightly to the dark or to the light, but not enough to get any kind of powers beside the neutral ones.
A character like that would be at a severe disadvantage.
I think it would be quite hard to implement for Neutral characters like Jolee and Kreia. They do lean slightly to the dark or to the light, but not enough to get any kind of powers beside the neutral ones.
A character like that would be at a severe disadvantage.
I always manually leveled Jolee so he had whatever powers I wanted him to have that he never used anyway lol. Kreia I always auto level. She never uses any powers except protections and speed she can cast on the PC anyway. So as far as they go they don't need any "prestige" type powers. It would make it more difficult for a neutral PC, but so what? You don't get a prestige class in K2 if you're PC is neutral (and all the cool stuff a certain mod gets you if you have that installed), which makes K2 a little more difficult as a neutral. So I don't really see a problem. And it might make it a little more interesting and repalyable as a neutral PC if certain powers are unattainable.
Perhaps your alignment shouldn't be on a line between light and dark but on triangle between light, dark, and the neutral way of thinking of kreia. Then you could have prestige class for grey pc.
I think the part where the Light/Dark scale is a vertical bar works just fine. A triangle? nah...