between the Sith and Dark Jedi? the books seem to make some sort of distinction so is the Sith a specific branch of Dark Jedi, or a different religion or something?

Well, a Sith was a race of people, then Dark Jedi came and got their freak on and soon they were Sith or something like that. I can't remember.

Dark Jedi are just that, Jedi using the Dark Side.

Sith is... a title that the Darkest Jedi earned or something.

I probbaly can't explain it very well, but there is a diffference. Sith are Sith, followers of the Dark side, and Dark Jedi are Jedi who use the Dark side since they cannot claim the title Sith until they slay the Sith master or something.

Astro will probably explain it better than me.

Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
....Astro will probably explain it better than me.

In GLs mind there is no such thing as Dark Jedi... its just Jedi vs Sith... As the TPM novelisation outlines, there used to be a time when there were many sith(* see below). There was too much infighting, which threatened the very existence of the sith. Darth bane was the first to ordain(by use of force) that there shall only ever be two sith lords in existence. A master and an apprentice. So, in essence the only way to become the master was to be the apprentice and knock off the master, and take an apprentice yourself...

IIRC, Darth Sidious may?? have been Darth Banes apprentice... now of course by TPM, sidious apprentice is maul, and by AoTC is darth tyranus(Dooku)...by the end of ep3, it is of course vader..


(*)As far as EU goes, what the sith are is far more convoluted. This is definitely an example of a lack of planning in these original stages of the EU exploding in the early 90s. The current notion of the sith historically tries to fit all these ideas in, as LF licensing tries to do :) The sith originally popped up in the comics, "The Sith Wars/Dark Lords of The Sith" and were an alien race used as minions for dark side force users... The sith then became a doctrine it seemed, with these dark side users having their own army(as seen in knights of the old republic)....

Dark jedi, is another EU only concept, and very loosely describes force users who use the dark side powers to achieve their ends... (so technically sith could be describes as dark jedi, but it would be more accurate to call them sith when they fit in with GLs explanation of sith....) the best modern day analogyu i can offer is saying what is the difference between a Nazi/Klansman or a racist ??

mtfbwya

The Sith are an order, just like the Jedi, with ranks, trials, leaders etc.

Dark Jedi refers to individual force-users who use the dark side of the Force to achieve whatever ends they may have in mind.

Originally posted by wassup
The Sith are an order, just like the Jedi, with ranks, trials, leaders etc.

Dark Jedi refers to individual force-users who use the dark side of the Force to achieve whatever ends they may have in mind.

yes indeed....have you read the "dark lords of the sith" comics...

hella cool, depite their role in foggying the definition of sith :D

mtfbwya

The Sith were at one time a species, who later came to be known as the Massassi, but over time the Sith name was converted to describe the overlords of that society, fallen Jedi (yes, "Dark Jedi") who fled the Jedi order in disgrace well over 5000 years before the movies (most sources indicate that they left the order more than 5500 years before the movies, and some even indicate as much as several thousand years more on top of that). These Jedi, with their seemingly magical powers, easily influenced the Sith species of the world to which they fled, Onderon (and its "beast moon," Dxun). Their power grew, until they had become Dark Lords of the Sith, the very beings of whom the comic books speak.

Technically, the Dark Lords who launched the Great Hyperspace War, led by Naga Sadow, were not Dark Jedi, as this name typically refers to Jedi fallen from the order, not those raised in another order entirely. Those Sith Lords were repulsed, though at great cost to the Republic and to the Jedi. It was at this time that the Jedi and Republic began to establish formal bonds and that the Jedi truly began to become the "modern order" (as witnessed in the movies), assuming their roles as peacekeepers and mediators - as well as warriors, of a sort.

For many hundreds of years, stretching almost a millennia, the galaxy was seemingly rid of the menace of the Sith, until Freedon Nadd, another fallen Jedi (who does qualify as a Dark Jedi as well as Lord of the Sith) fled the order, and stumbled on Naga Sadow's sarcophagus. In the battles that followed, Nadd was defeated, and Sadow's shadow eliminated... but Nadd himself survived. Nadd's spirit was later that which would turn Exar Kun, greatest of the Dark Lords of the Sith to the Dark Side.

Kun was, similarly to Nadd, a Dark Jedi, but it was he who truly demonstrated that the Sith were more than simple Dark Jedi. While many Jedi fell to the Dark Side and followed him, for the first time another force seemed to be truly on the verge of conquering the Old Republic. His forces decimated those of the Republic, and until most of the surviving Jedi united to seal his doom on Yavin IV, he held the upper hand in the war. While he technically qualifies as a Dark Jedi, it was he who gave the Sith their fearsome power over the minds of the galaxy's citizens, and who truly sets the divide between Sith Lord and Dark Jedi.

For by the time of Exar Kun's demise (actually, coinciding with his "demise," though he lived on in ghostly form to torment the Jedi of the Skywalker era some 4000 years later), the Sith species - the so-called "Massassi" - were all dead. The Sith had become a religion, a philosophy, and a shadow order to face the Jedi. There is considerable evidence that Lucas (and many of those who have published novels under the SW name) are fans of the idea that there will always be a balance to the good and the light, and in Lucas' universe, it is in the form of the Sith - called by various names in various eras.

After Kun's defeat, various other Sith adherents arose. Beginning with Darth Revan - and his apprentice Malak - some 40 years after Kun's death, various Dark Jedi who found, learned, and adhered to Sith teaching attempted to resurrect the order. They were in some measure successful - Revan and Malak conquered much of the galaxy, and after their ends, the remnants of the Sith reformed themselves into sects including (but not limited to) the Sith Assassins. Though all such groups were eventually defeated, it was a lengthy process, and many years passed before the Jedi truly regained their place in the universe. By 3500 hundred years before the final fall of the Old Republic, though, much was as it ever had been, and it remained so for another 1500 years.

Approximately 2000 years before the rise of the Empire, a group of Dark Jedi left the Jedi order (as usual, dissatisfied with its restraint). Seeking to gain power, they took for themselves (rather undeservedly) the name of the Sith, which still had power even so many years later. This order grew and challenged both the Jedi and the Republic, and while it did not have many of the teachings of the ancient Sith, it slowly rediscovered them and began to grow into the name it had taken. The conflict between these Sith and the Jedi culminated after a thousand years in a great battle on Ruusan, in which the Sith leaders, outmaneuvered and outnumbered by the Jedi and their leader, Lord Hoth, triggered a "thought bomb" that trapped both Jedi and Sith spirits in the great caverns of the Valley of the Jedi, where they would wait to be discovered for a thousand years until the arrival of first Morgan, then Kyle Katarn. The sole survivor of the Sith destruction was a dark lord who called himself Darth Bane (the name "Darth" being a contraction of "Dark Lord of the Sith), and having seen considerable destruction within the ranks of the Sith order (this being what had caused their numbers to be so low in the final battle with the Jedi) decreed that henceforth there would only ever be two Sith Lords: a Master and an Apprentice.

This tradition continued for the next 1000 years, the Sith slowly seeking ways to subtly shape events to their readings of the Force, and to insert themselves into positions of power. This movement found its pinnacle in the person of Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious, who, through skillful political maneuverings (combined with ingenious use of Force persuasion) took complete control of the Republic, then disbanded it. His apprentice, Darth Vader, one of two real "Dark Jedi" in the final days of the Sith order, eventually turned on him and killed him.

With the fianl destruction of Exar Kun several years later, all that remained were Dark Jedi, who had no affiliation with the Sith whatsoever, but were only fallen Jedi.

excellent summation of the comic era stuff Keralys. Bravo !

mtfbwya

Taking the prequels into account, a "Dark Jedi" would be a Jedi who has betrayed the principals of the Jedi Order by embracing the Dark Side of the Force.

Examples would be like those rogue Jedi who began the "Sith" order 2,000 years before Episode I (based on The Phantom Menace novelisation). Darth Vader and Count Dooku would be other canonical examples of Dark Jedi.

"Sith" are followers of the Sith religion, which embraces the Dark Side of the Force as a means to power. Examples of Sith would be Darth Sideous (Emperor Palpatine), Darth Maul, Darth Vader, Darth Tyrannus (Count Dooku), Darth Bane, etc.

Note that a Sith can also be a Dark Jedi (if they were a former Jedi who fell), such as Vader or Dooku. But there are also Sith who were never Jedi, like Maul and Sideous.

There are other Force Users/Force Sensitives in the Expanded Universe who are neither Jedi nor Sith. The Jedi and Sith are just two religious Orders with a teaching for use and interpretation of the Force in their lives.

Of course another way to explain the so-called "Dark Jedi" or "Sith" in the Expanded Universe post-ROTJ is to say that once the Jedi Order (Episode III?) was destroyed and the Sith Order was destroyed (ROTJ), there arose people who claimed the titles for themselves. They may or may not have had any legitimate claim to the titles, but they claimed them nonetheless.

Originally posted by Kurgan
.....Of course another way to explain the so-called "Dark Jedi" or "Sith" in the Expanded Universe post-ROTJ is to say that once the Jedi Order (Episode III?) was destroyed and the Sith Order was destroyed (ROTJ), there arose people who claimed the titles for themselves. They may or may not have had any legitimate claim to the titles, but they claimed them nonetheless.

Interesting. I never thought about the post ROTJ era w regards to the sith per se

IIRC, no one as of yet has proclaimed themselves a sith or sith lord(no one with the title 'Darth' post ROTJ) Instead we have a bunch of dark jedi, the most notable being Kueller, and The Shadow Academy of course and even Aurra Sing if you wanna be picky :D

Hmmm....with the post NJO era novels being likely to centre on the force/exploits of the jedi, I wonder if the notion of the sith will play a part at all :D I know there are a lot of anti-NJO ppl, but I myself delighted at reading Vergere's description of the force...I imagine some of those ideas will continue with Jacen in the post NJO novels... ??? :)

mtfbwya

In Jedi Knight, we have Gorc & Pic who call themselves "Brothers of the Sith."

In Mysteries of the Sith we encounter various "Sith creatures," undead, and spirits. Of course these could be from the time period before the Republic, during the Sith/Jedi War, etc.

In the Clone Wars cartoon, even while the Sith are around, we have "Asaj Ventress" (sp?) who claims to be a Sith, a claim which makes Count Dooku laugh at her (because obviously HE is a Sith and thinks this person is a pretender).

In Jedi Academy, the Cult of Ragnos exists. I don't know if they specifically call themselves "Sith" but it is possible. Just because they don't use the title "Darth" in the dialouge or call themselves "Dark Lords" that doesn't mean they don't consider themselves Sith, since they claim to follow a Dark Lord and use the Dark Side of the Force, and none of them were previously Jedi (that we know of).

Originally posted by Kurgan
In Jedi Knight, we have Gorc & Pic who call themselves "Brothers of the Sith."


now theres an EU conundrum right there. Ive seen the forum equivalent of a fist fight over this at TFN, ie. whether these two are the same species as yoda, which is of course "unknown" :p

I think with all the permutations mentioned above, sith in PT times is moreso a doctrine incorporating use of the (dark side) of the force. In Old Republic times, things are a bit more complicated, but this was moreso due to the Sith Lords comix adding these various new (and somewhat confusing) elements. Still, they make a heck of a fun read. I highly recommend them :)

mtfbwya

Basically, Sith are Dark Jedi, but not all Dark Jedi are Sith...

And about the Sith zombies in MotS... I wonder how they could have been revived... Maybe that temple is like a 'Valley of the Sith', and instead of spirits, it contains the doomed souls of the Sith, condemned to live an empty life forever because they chose the dark side... There must've been thousands of Sith buried there, if the Force concentration was enough to bring the dead, and even stone statues to life.

But then, why are they all after the power of the Valley of the Jedi, and not the Temple? When all the force-energy of the knwon usniverse combined is just enough to resurrect Marka Ragnos (as seen in JA), then there must be a ****load of power there...

Dark Jedi are individual and use the dark side of the force to accomplish anything they desire. But normally it involves them getting killed by another lightsaber of a jedi.

Sith are a race of people who are devoted to the dark side of the force. They have guards aswell as jedi.

Originally posted by Doomie
Basically, Sith are Dark Jedi, but not all Dark Jedi are Sith...

And about the Sith zombies in MotS... I wonder how they could have been revived... Maybe that temple is like a 'Valley of the Sith', and instead of spirits, it contains the doomed souls of the Sith, condemned to live an empty life forever because they chose the dark side... There must've been thousands of Sith buried there, if the Force concentration was enough to bring the dead, and even stone statues to life.

But then, why are they all after the power of the Valley of the Jedi, and not the Temple? When all the force-energy of the knwon usniverse combined is just enough to resurrect Marka Ragnos (as seen in JA), then there must be a ****load of power there...

Hi Doomie :D Is this your first time to teh EU forums ? Is so, then welcome....

yes, Marka Ragnos was in JA/KOTOR and the DLS comix.... I always take game EU with a *large* pinch of salt. This is as when storylines etc are being put together, there usually isnt much consultation with Lucasfilm/Lucasbooks as far as continuity goes(mainly as game storylines are not open ended). It's moreso that EU events affect game stories, not the other way around. However, Kyle Katarn made a significant enough impact to have popped up in a cpl of cameos in the NJO I recall :D

Im looing forward tho, to any new spin or tidbit KOTOR2 may add/use from EU.... :D

mtfbwya

Originally posted by Doomie
[B]Basically, Sith are Dark Jedi, but not all Dark Jedi are Sith...

But not all Sith are Dark Jedi either (Maul, Sideous were never Jedi).


And about the Sith zombies in MotS... I wonder how they could have been revived... Maybe that temple is like a 'Valley of the Sith', and instead of spirits, it contains the doomed souls of the Sith, condemned to live an empty life forever because they chose the dark side... There must've been thousands of Sith buried there, if the Force concentration was enough to bring the dead, and even stone statues to life.

But then, why are they all after the power of the Valley of the Jedi, and not the Temple? When all the force-energy of the knwon usniverse combined is just enough to resurrect Marka Ragnos (as seen in JA), then there must be a ****load of power there...

It's a big plot hole, since Mara and Kyle just left Drommuund Kass behind. Even if they were sworn to secrecy, if it was just sitting around for all those millennia and nobody was expected to try to take it over?

Of course, one would say that the Valley of the Jedi contained a LOT more force energy, and it was not all drained in the plot of Jedi Academy, rather that energy was taken from other sources (perhaps the New Republic blockaded the planet to prevent anyone trying to take it again after the events of Jedi Outcast?).

The other thing is since the Sith Temple was so permeated with Dark Side energy, it could be that it was simply considered too dangerous, or anyone who tried to go there to "power up" ended up getting killed/taken over. Did the New Republic try to blow up the planet after they discovered it was a Dark Side Nexus?

I have a feeling that answer is "no" since they continued to hold Jedi training on a friggin' Sith planet (Yavin 4).

This can all be blamed on Lucas for not telling the EU authors enough background to keep these stories straight and/or changing his mind and not decanonizing those other stories.

Btw, I can see the confusion if you use the following terms this way (which wasn't uncommon pre-1999), before we had the prequels):

"Jedi" = Anyone who uses the Force

"Dark Jedi" = Anyone who uses the Dark Side of the Force


"Sith" = A term exclusively applied to Darth Vader, the "Dark Lord of the Sith."

Then the EU had something about the "Sith" originally being red-skinned "aliens" who were conquered by "Dark Jedi" and then became "combined" with them, so that they were thought to be the same thing by the galaxy at large.

Of course once Episode I comes around we realize these terms are completely inadequate.

Instead:

Jedi = A member of a certain Order of Force users who had an important role in the Old Republic.

Dark Jedi = A theoretical term applying to a fallen Jedi.

Sith = A member of a secret Order of Dark Side Force users thought to have become extinct 1000 years before TPM, but in reality continued with "always two... a master and an apprentice" plotting the downfall of the Jedi. Palpatine/Sideous, Dooku/Tyrannus, Anakin/Vader, Maul/Larry.

The Sith aren't a "race." That is, if they once were, they aren't "anymore" (as of TPM), but merely a secret order of Dark Side Force users. Some of them are fallen Jedi, but some aren't.

And "Dark Lord of the Sith" applies to ALL Sith, at least as of the Prequel era.

There's been 2 kinds of Sith thru the millenia's (which we know of).

Original Sith, a race which had an empire that was destroyed 5000 years before the movies, created by even older Dark Jedi's who were banished in the earlier days of the Old Republic/Jedi Order (some 20,000 years BBY* I believe, but the exact time isn't determined). The Dark Jedi's were concidered gods by the Sith, and the Dark Jedi proclaimed themselfs as Lords of the Sith

and

The Sith Order, which used/uses the same teachings as the ancient Sith Lords from the Sith Empire Era. Exactly when you want to say the cult started I'm not sure. Could be after Exar Kun, during Exar Kun's era (4000 BBY), or as far back as Freedon Nadd's (4400 BBY) time.

In any event, the Sith of the old is not the same as the Sith of today or 2-3000 years back, except for it's teachings perhaps.


A Dark Jedi is, as mentioned before, a Jedi who has fallen.


*BBY = Before the Battle of Yavin

Originally posted by Jan Gaarni
There's been 2 kinds of Sith thru the millenia's (which we know of).

Original Sith.... and

The Sith Order, .....Could be after Exar Kun, during Exar Kun's era (4000 BBY), or as far back as Freedon Nadd's (4400 BBY) time.

In any event, the Sith of the old is not the same as the Sith of today or 2-3000 years back, except for it's teachings perhaps.

*BBY = Before the Battle of Yavin

Indeed. Reading through all the *excellent* responses ppl have made here, it seems this is indeed the 'grey area' Namely, the timeframe associated with the first two steps of this sequence :

Alien 'sith'/massasi to --> 'sith' empire -->

1000yrs pre TPM sith order --> Sith order destroyed by Vader in ROTJ --> Dark jedi, Shadow Academy

personally, from an EU/books perspective, I would *love* to learn about the exploits of Darth Bane, and Palpatine's apprenticeship and ascension..... as for who to write these, the choice is obvious IMO : Kevin J Anderson :D

mtfbwya

I think the only real "gray area" falls in the post-ROTJ era. I believe that of all those who succumbed to the dark side, Tavion and her followers, as well as Kyle himself during the Dromuund Kaas incident best fit the description Sith. Then, of course, you have Luke Skywalker himself, who was certainly a Lord of the Sith for at least six months, and if the Resurrected Emperor wasn't Sith, no one was.

None of the other dark side Force users truly subscribed to the Sith religion, which is that which defines the Sith Order. Certainly C'baoth and Kueller (and his "apprentice" of sorts, Brakiss), the most notable Dark Jedi of the era following Return of the Jedi, do not fit that.

As for "reliability" of games, I've typically been inclined to agree with the view Astro stated, however recent turnabouts in LA policy have changed my view a bit. Specifically, anything that is not clearly contradictory to other "definite" material can and should be treated as "third"-level canon, that is true within the universe and lower only than the movies and their novelizations themselves. Thus, the Dark Forces series, through JA, KOTOR 1 and 2, you name it, they all exist and are true in everything that does not disagree with established sources. Particularly in the DF and KOTOR series, this is not an issue, though some parts of older games (think X-wing, Podracer, etc) have problems in that regard.

I, too, will be curious to see what role dark/Sith might have in the upcoming novels by Denning, Allston, and Karen Traviss. Given Lucas' decree against using Sith or dark force users of any sort in the NJO, I'd guess that Sith as such will not be a factor, though dark (or perhaps gray) Jedi will be. And "Dark Lord of the Sith" applies to ALL Sith, at least as of the Prequel era. Actually, that is only true of the Prequel era and the 1000 years preceding it. In the era referred to generally as the "Golden Age of the Sith" or "Knights of the Old Republic" era, only the leaders of the Sith held that title (eg, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Revan, etc.).

Originally posted by Master_Keralys
...... Specifically, anything that is not clearly contradictory to other "definite" material can and should be treated as "third"-level canon, that is true within the universe and lower only than the movies and their novelizations themselves. Thus.....

Keralys ! Be careful - dont start one of those 'canon' wars :p especially with Kurgan around here alot recently :)

*makes mental note to find out how to add "canon" to censored words list*

Yes, I dont know too much about the post NJO direction. However, I can understand what GL meant in terms of not wanting sith around anymore, as this would detract from the enormity of anakin skywalker's achievement in bringing 'balance to the force'. If it only had lasted for 20 years or so, it wouldnt seem such a big deal :(

mtfbwya

Kurgan can eat it if he wants to start a "canon" fight with me... :p Meaning no offense, Kurgan, but you'd lose. I'm now officially the expert on these boards when it comes to officialdom, given how much research I've done it. If Nate Butler steps in, I'll bow to his superior wisdom, but until then... :D

In any case, we can just call it "official" instead of "canon" and keep everybody happy.

I agree... I'm certain that there will always be a dark side though. Interestingly enough, Lucas himself has commented that the "Sith" always have and pretty much always will be around in some form or another. Maybe not that name, maybe not subscribing to the specific tenets of orders before them, but in Lucas' universe there is always an order of evil to balance the order of good. No way around it. Original Sith, a race which had an empire that was destroyed 5000 years before the movies, created by even older Dark Jedi's who were banished in the earlier days of the Old Republic/Jedi Order (some 20,000 years BBY* I believe, but the exact time isn't determined). The Dark Jedi's were concidered gods by the Sith, and the Dark Jedi proclaimed themselfs as Lords of the Sith. Close, but not entirely accurate. Those Jedi were banished from the order roughly 5,500 to 6,500 years BBY; the Jedi order as a group of warriors, per se, did not come into existence until shortly before that time. Up until about 10,000 BBY, the Jedi had been a mostly meditative order, though occasionally some groups would try to use the Force for evil.

Specifically, 20,000 years BBY, the Jedi as an order even of meditative philosophers did not exist. Rather, a group of scientists were trying to figure out what the Force was and how to tap into it. Eventually, those scientists, through long study, began to understand that the Force was more than an energy source, and thus began to apply themselves to studying its mystical side as well. Likely these were the founders of the Jedi, studying on Ossus; this change had become complete by roughly 15,000 BBY.

Not for another 5,000 years did the Jedi begin to affiliate themselves in any way with the Republic, and it took roughly the same amount of time for the mostly "religious" group to gain the large number of adherents that continued to characterize it for millennia. Moreover, it was only by about 10,000 BBY that the Jedi began to study any military arts, and this remained a secondary concern until the time of the Great Schism of the Jedi order, in which the forebears of Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow were exiled to what would later be the Outer Rim, but was then unknown - Wild Space.

yes indeed :D But, Keralys, can you, or anyone, shed further light on this grey area... as I mentioned above : basically from KOTOR era to 1000 years pre TPM(Darth Bane declares the 'only 2' rule).

Is this era covered anywhere in lit EU !??

mtfbwya

Perhaps the race that lives on the 'unknown planet' from KotOR are the Sith. I haven't played it in a while, but i believe I remember something about them having had a huge empire once. Besides, all the ruins they left behind look totally Sith-like...

Remember, I'm talking about the Race of the Sith here, not the order...


And about Darth Bane... I believe the only two-rule was established after the Sith were defeated by the jedi, wich was around 4000 BBY if I'm not mistaken. (Give or take a few thousand years, to be on the safe side) so if Darth Bane made that rule, and if he trained Sidious, that'd mean he's really friggin old...

Well, Keralys, about the time period the Dark Jedi was banished, I haven't read anything specific about when that happened, but your time frame makes more sense I guess. :)

As for the time between KoTOR and 1000 years BBY, it is pretty much a blank page in the history. We do know that the order which Darth Bane was in started appearing some time between 2000 years BBY and 1000 years BBY. The Essential Cronology says around 2000 BBY, the new Sith rose once again to threaten the Jedi and the Republic, and eventually waged war against them. Due to there not being any firm rules within the new Sith, and unvillingness to share power, lead to their own self destruction in the end.

It was this flaw in the Sith which made Darth Bane create/reinstate the code "Only 2", and to take it even further by going under ground. This was 1000 years BBY.

The Sith of the old, had a different way. Though many wanted the power, only one held the supreme command over the Sith, supposedly by selection.

I don't claim to be an (or "the") expert on the EU (I've only read a small portion of the legion of crap, er I mean "literature" that's out there! heh), but as the canon policy, it's changed a bit over time.

Here's the latest on it:

http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jsp?forum=24&thread=152583&start=15&msRange=15)


Paraphrasing the comments of others on other forums (thanks Lord Poe):

Lucasfilm's Leeland Chee, aka "Tasty Taste" runs an official database called the "Holocron" which details the various levels of Star Wars canon.

Are the entries in the Holocron sorted as cannonical & non-cannonical? Are there various degress of officialness?

The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.

I will not go into specifics as to what is considered "S" canon or what items that are seemingly "C" canon are actually "G" canon.

Okay, I know that the novels are C-level, and I assume that most of the newer comics are also C-level. Where on the continuity spectrum to the Video games come in?

"...continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. " By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case. This has been our general approach to continuity since we began using the Holocron database to track it.

In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films.

It gets a little more complicated when something is seen on-screen but not named. So the "shuura fruit" mentioned in the AOTC novel would be G because you see it in the film, although the author came up with the name.

Is there anything post-Return of the Jedi that is G level?

Not in the database, no. If there is anything anywhere, only George knows.

Though I don't discuss specific continuity issues in this thread, I do want to the address the fact that in the Holocron, we track continuity by Holocron entry and not by source.

What that means is, a particular source would never be discounted in its entirety, only those elements of that source that are contradictory.

Hence, while there may be individual elements of say the Marvel Comics or the Holiday Special that are considered non-continuity, all the other parts can still be valid.

Interview: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20031204leland)

Everything is looked at on a case-by-case basis. Among the factors we consider: In how many sources does this particular fact appear? Which source has the largest audience? Which explanation is the coolest? Have we been told by George Lucas to avoid this topic? If, after weighing all those variables, the answer isn't yet clear, the issue is presented to an internal group that makes the final determination as to which source is "correct."

So there you have it...

Originally posted by Kurgan
...So there you have it...

great, Kurgan's done his "Canon Lecture" again :( :p

and Kurgan, coming into the EU thread and calling SW lit a "legion of crap" is flame baiting ...Im keepin' an eye on you ! :p

make sure you come to the trivia thread :D

mtfbwya

Originally posted by Astrotoy7
great, Kurgan's done his "Canon Lecture" again :( :p But did anyone really read all that? :)

Originally posted by Prime
But did anyone really read all that? :)

well, this is the third time Ive been exposed to it. Each time I read just that little bit more :D When K next drops the 'canon science', prolly in the SW forums or post Ep3, I might get through the whole thing :D

JK, Kurgan, you da man when it comes to canon :p

mtfbwya

Originally posted by Astrotoy7
well, this is the third time Ive been exposed to it. Each time I read just that little bit more :D When K next drops the 'canon science', prolly in the SW forums or post Ep3, I might get through the whole thing :D

JK, Kurgan, you da man when it comes to canon :p

mtfbwya

I'm not that bad, I've explained it before, but I didn't post all that quoting but once (unless I missed something). From now on I'll just post links (don't feel like making another sticky... hehe). ; )


Just something all ge--, er I mean "true fans" should know! :launcher: :bounfire2