-Here is the link to the coverage- (
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-PLS&idq=/ff/story/0001/20041118/0044068510.htm)
Personaly, I think they belong in prison. just becuase they are young girls don't mean they must pay for what they done. kids getting sick from an expired perscription drug and bleach is hardly a prank. They could have killed someone.
harmless my ass. ingesting bleach can kill you. They better not get let off.
sounds like a prank to me. If you are trying to kill everyone why would you bother with the tabasco?
They are only kids. Kids don't fully understand the concept of consequences, i know i didn't. Just cos kids ACT more grown up these days doesn't mean that actually are.
I've never understoof the whole "try kids as adults when the crime is bad" concept. Either they are kids and don't get the consequences, or they aren't. The publicity and seriousness of the crime doesn't affect that.
Sounds to me like they just watched Heathers... :D
I think most people at the age of 12 know ingesting bleach is dangerous and can kill you :dozey: the punishment should fit the crime.
I think we should try kids as adults in ALL crimes.
Originally posted by toms
They are only kids. Kids don't fully understand the concept of consequences, i know i didn't. Just cos kids ACT more grown up these days doesn't mean that actually are.
when I was a kid I understood conequences! I never pulled pranks on people, purticulurly not with chemicals like bleach.You should never feed people bleach! Bleach is not for eating!Even when I was their age, it was just common sense to ME.
Even kids should know right and wrong. It would be a sad day for society if kids don't know right from wrong.
If kids don't know right from wrong, then parents are not teaching them and how will they learn right from wrong when they are adults? It should be up to the parents to teach kids right from wrong before they get in trouble with the law.
To put it simply, kids should know right from wrong just like adults should and therefore should always be tried like adults.
Originally posted by kipperthefrog
I think we should try kids as adults in ALL crimes.
i disagree, i think for very serious crimes i think they should recieve the same sentances as adults but not for trivial ones.
this particular example however falls firmly in the catagory of "serious crime"
Originally posted by Leper Messiah
i disagree, i think for very serious crimes i think they should recieve the same sentances as adults but not for trivial ones.
this particular example however falls firmly in the catagory of "serious crime"
I think sentances to minor crimes should be sentanced to kids the same as adults!
example: a kid who does vandalism is a misdemeanor, and a kid should know better the same as an adult. Should he get let off easy just becuase of his age? "he's just fourteen, he didn't know any better..." BULL! parental guidence should have tought him it is wrong to vandalize!
Puting bleach in the icing is aginst common sense. Thoe girls should have known better.ANY crime big and small, people under 18 should know better! (I would understand if the person was 5 years old, but thats what the "keep out of reach of children" label is for.)
I'm too shocked to write any meaningfull reply to this, but that was very stupid, they deserve to be locked up for that, tabasco sauce would have been a prank but bleach? they must have known what they were doing.
I just feel sorry for the kids that were ill as a result, though it could have been uch worse.
Note to self, don't except cake.
Was the act stupid? Certainly. Was the act dangerous? I'm afraid so.
But was the act with bad intent? Nope. It was a prank made by a few silly teenage girls, nothing more.
Locking 13 year old girls into prison for pulling a prank could've happened in Iran.
But in the western world? Nah.
We're not that sick.
If that's a prank, it should go in Jack@$$.
As to the penalty, they shouldn't get off without any, but they shouldn't be tried as adults. Think of some kind of punishment that a kid would understand. The adult punishments are harsh; severe fines that would end up falling on the parents, not the kids, possible jail time? No, kids don't need that. Kicked out of school and held back a grade or two? Maybe this would get their attention better... at least maybe they'd stop messing with bleach!
make them drink bleach. :D!
Originally posted by Breton
Was the act stupid? Certainly. Was the act dangerous? I'm afraid so.
But was the act with bad intent? Nope. It was a prank made by a few silly teenage girls, nothing more.
Locking 13 year old girls into prison for pulling a prank could've happened in Iran.
But in the western world? Nah.
We're not that sick.
So you think around here 13 year old girls should do whatever they want? There are places like juvunile hall to put them in, not just prison.
prison, jail, and juvenile hall are all different things. Just to clear things up. I think they should be held in jail for about 3 days, maybe even forced to endure the same bs they put the other kids through. Prison for this? no. Juvenile Hall, maybe.
Originally posted by Breton
Was the act stupid? Certainly. Was the act dangerous? I'm afraid so.
But was the act with bad intent? Nope. It was a prank made by a few silly teenage girls, nothing more. the whole purpose to a prank is to harm someone, be it mental or physical. Bad intent? yes, yes there was.
prank1 Audio pronunciation of "prank" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prngk)
n.
A mischievous trick or practical joke.
mis·chie·vous Audio pronunciation of "mischievous" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (msch-vs)
adj.
1. Causing mischief.
2. Playful in a naughty or teasing way.
3. Troublesome; irritating: a mischievous prank.
4. Causing harm, injury, or damage: mischievous rumors and falsehoods.
were they planning on killing anyone, no. Were they planning on hurting people, we can assume so considering the contents they put in the cake.
They should get Juvi. 12 kids sent to the hospital. That's serious.
By age 13, children should know common sense.
as for the dictionary thing, you can't take a word from the meaning, then the meaning of that word (the fourth meaning mind you) and apply it completely to the first one.
And they were 13. You know, some people are just ignorant. They don't know Bleach is a base.... it's a base right? THey don't know it's dangerous, they don't read the label... they are ignorant. They know it is icky, so they make an icky cake.
I think a fine is all that is in order.
so because they're ignorant they can be brushed off? Pardon me, but that only is just ignorant. They knew what they were doing was wrong, and bad. They know the dangers. It says in big letters on all bleach products (WARNING DO NOT INGEST!).
A fine is bs and will teach these girls nothing. Bleach can destroy a person internal organs beyond belief and cause death, this IS VERY serious. a fine is bull.
I put a paper clip in an outlet and a fire starts ( I didn't know it'd start a fire) people are seriously hurt and 1 person is dead, because I was ignorant to the fact a fire would start I should be let off lightly? That's just bull.
Ignorance is no excuse. None at all. I think the parents should face some sort of reprimand in addition to the children. I mean honestly, if the girls are putting bleach in cake the parents have PROBABLY screwed up somewhere. PArents have to be held accountable for the actions of their children when their children are still considered too young to be held accountable for their actions.
If I acted out of ignorence, I would get full punishment regardless. They don't care!
My mom told me the girls had aspergers syndrome. I say THAT is no exuse becuase I, too, have aspergers syndrome, and never in my life have I EVER put dangerous chemicals in food. to me it is just common sense.
the excuse of aspergers syndrome hardly excuses them from what they did. The combination of ingredients and the thought put into planning this shows it wasn't some impulsive autistic style reaction, but a calculated plan designed to harm others.
Originally posted by InsaneSith
the excuse of aspergers syndrome hardly excuses them from what they did. The combination of ingredients and the thought put into planning this shows it wasn't some impulsive autistic style reaction, but a calculated plan designed to harm others.
INDEED:D
The parents must be using it as an exuse to get their precius children off. Daddy wants to save her child. Daddy uses every exuse and blame every thing possible to get them out of the hole...
I guess you get the picture now.
You do know that suggesting a fine - no matter how much the amount - will do absolutely nothing to affect the girls? I know from personal experience that fining a juvenile is pointless, because it is just dumped onto the parents, and the kid gets a slap on the wrist. If you think that a fine would suffice, you must not know much about crime and punishment.
Oh, and kicked out of school... a punishment? HAH! That's heaven for most kids! Why do you think some kids are happy and even try to get out-of-school suspension?
Originally posted by TK-8252
You do know that suggesting a fine - no matter how much the amount - will do absolutely nothing to affect the girls? I know from personal experience that fining a juvenile is pointless, because it is just dumped onto the parents, and the kid gets a slap on the wrist. If you think that a fine would suffice, you must not know much about crime and punishment.
Oh, and kicked out of school... a punishment? HAH! That's heaven for most kids! Why do you think some kids are happy and even try to get out-of-school suspension?
I hear you TK! I personally knew a friend who was happy to get suspension. (he did NO work in classes anyway, and he got nothing but ZEROS on his report card! he didn't care.)
Another thing, what does a KID care what his parents pay?
EDIT: Wanna hear somthing funny? When my dad was a kid back when they PADDLED kids, My dad knew two guys who were competing to get the most paddling! The teacher even decided he wanted to keep score by marking points on the wooden paddle! LOL:p
HAHAHA!! To anyone who thinks that these kids should get off light then I implore you to read this:
I was 13, had an artclass with a teacher I hated, and she was always being a bitch to me for no reason. I finished my assignment, and given that its ART class, I figure finishing up on a picture I was drawing would be okay. Not with Ms. BitchTeacher. She took it and threatened to write me up if I continued being disorderly:eyeraise: Anyway, I start mumbling to myself and all of a sudden the teacher tells me to leave. Whatever, I go. I mumble all the way out and some dickwad who's wanted to fight me since forever started saying 'Aw, he said he's gonna get a gun and shoot the teacher'. Eeeeyea...whatever. I go down to the office after that and BAM, theres a cop waiting for me. I was facing Conspiracy to Murder for mumbling - MUMBLING!! Nothing but 'rassafrassas' and 'hookaalookas' left my goddamned mouth. So if I can face charges like that for nothing, then these stupid girls need to goto jail, and not minimum security white collar resort prison, I'm talking federal pound me in the ass prison.
@Kain. Most federal prisons are the country club types. Every convict I've ever met has described federal prisons like they were fantasy islands. The fact that they're funded federally would be the reason for this, I'm guessing. Since the feds have all the money.
And for everyone who's mentioned juvenile detention centers instead of prison because prison would be too harsh. I don't know what juvenile detention centers are like in the states you live in, but here they're as bad, if not worse than prison here where I live. I'd say worse actually, because not only have all of the people there been found guilty of some crime, they're all kids. Unruly kids. There are two juvenile detention centers, one minimum security prison, one forensic center, one drug and alcohol treatment center, countless halfway houses and homes for the "mentally challenged" (or retarded people for those of us who aren't afraid to speak direct language) all within an hours drive from my house. Some within a mile (the prison, one juvenile center, the forensic center where I work, the alcohol and drug treatment center, and the various "homes").
And do you know which ones are always in the news for escapes, escape attempts, the staff being beaten, the other inmates being beaten and raped? That's right. The kids.
Well the thing is, they're kids. I highly doubt the governemnt would send kids to prison (talking less than 16ish years old).
Originally posted by Kjшlen
And they were 13. You know, some people are just ignorant. They don't know Bleach is a base.... it's a base right?
I think a fine is all that is in order.
Sorry Guv'ner, didn't know the gun was loaded, honest.
so you be let off for ignorance then?
good plan.
Yes Sodium Hypochlorite is a base, and a strong one at that, Ph12.
EDIT: just found this most of which would be on the lable...
I. CHEMICAL IDENTIFICATION
Trade Name - Liquid Bleach, Soda Bleach
Chemical Name - Sodium hypochlorite
Chemical formula - NaOCl
Concentration
in water solution - 5 to 7% Available chlorine
CAS No. - 7681-52-9
II. PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS
Boiling Point - 1200 C
Freezing Point - 8.60 C
Specific gravity - 1.11 - 1.2 @ 250 C
Appearance - Clear pale yellow solution with
Chlorine odor.
III. REGULATORY INFORMATION
TSCA - CAS No. : 7681-52-9
ID No. : NA-1791 (RO)
DOT Hazard class : Corrosive Material
Sodium hypochlorite is an oxidizing agent.
IV. PHYSICAL HAZARDS
Flash point : NA
Flammable limits in air : Non combustible
Extinguishant : Water
Oxidant
Corrosive solution
V. HEALTH HAZARD
Sodium hypochlorite contains chlorine. Inhalation of fumes is to be avoided as it may cause respiratory irritation. Strong sodium hypochlorite solutions are powerful oxidizing agents that slowly produce burns when in contact with the skin. Inhalation may cause burns on mouth, throat and stomach.
VI. EMERGENCY FIRST AID
EYE CONTACT - Immediately flush eyes with directed stream of water for at least 15 minutes while forcibly holding eyelids apart to insure complete irrigation of all eye and lid tissue.
SKIN CONTACT - Flush exposed areas with plenty of water for at least
15 mins.
INHALATION - Removed to fresh air and have the victim drink milk,
milk of magnesia or small amount of brandy.
INGESTION - If swallowed and victim is conscious, have victim drink water, brandy or milk. Do not give vinegar or fruit juices because they are acidic. Do not induce vomiting.
If swallowed and victim is unconscious or having convulsions, keep victim warm and get medical help immediately.
VII. PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT
VENTILATION - Storage and working area should be well ventilated. Local exhausts are necessary to suck any fumes.
CLOTHING - Appropriate clothing to prevent the solutions contact
with skin.
EYE PROTECTION - Normally no fumes but to avoid contacts
with eyes, wear goggles and face shield when handling.
HAND PROTECTION - Rubber gloves must be used to avoid skin
contact.
VIII. SPILLS, LEAKS AND DISPOSAL PROCEDURES
SPILLS - flush with water to dilute the solution. Neutralize with
Sodium Sulfide, Sodium Sulfite, or Sodium thiosulfate solution.
LEAKS - should be repaired immediately. Leaks in tanks, pipe valves, etc. should be flush with large quantity of water to dilute the solution.
DISPOSAL - dilute sodium hypochlorite should be flushed out with plenty of water to reduce available chlorine content to less than 20 ppm level. If necessary neutralize with solution of sodium sulfite, sodium sulfide or sodium thiosulfate.
IX. SPECIAL PRECAUTIONS AND ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
1. Sodium hypochlorite is a strong oxidizing agent. Do not mix with reducing agents such as rags, wood fibers, paper debris, etc. or with reducing chemicals except under controlled conditions. Do not discord concentrated sodium hypochlorite indiscriminately. A spontaneous combustion fire could result.
2. Do not mix acids, ammonia or any ammoniated chemicals (such as amines). Chlorine which is hazardous gas will be released.
3. Store in corrosion resistant tanks such as hard rubber lined steel tanks, PVC, Polyethylene, FRP and other plastic tanks. Heavy metal pick-up in sodium hypochlorite solution will decompose the sodium hypochlorite solution will decompose the sodium hypochlorite causing evolution of oxygen.
Originally posted by kipperthefrog
I think sentances to minor crimes should be sentanced to kids the same as adults!
example: a kid who does vandalism is a misdemeanor, and a kid should know better the same as an adult. Should he get let off easy just becuase of his age? "he's just fourteen, he didn't know any better..." BULL! parental guidence should have tought him it is wrong to vandalize!
Puting bleach in the icing is aginst common sense. Thoe girls should have known better.ANY crime big and small, people under 18 should know better! (I would understand if the person was 5 years old, but thats what the "keep out of reach of children" label is for.)
there has to be some allowance for the fact that people do things as juveniles that they probably wouldnt do in adulthood, so the adult punishment is not always the best way to go. Only serious crimes (like this case) should go the full wack because stuff like this has to be properly punished, not just an exercise in lesson-teaching
Originally posted by Leper Messiah
there has to be some allowance for the fact that people do things as juveniles that they probably wouldnt do in adulthood, so the adult punishment is not always the best way to go. Only serious crimes (like this case) should go the full wack because stuff like this has to be properly punished, not just an exercise in lesson-teaching
So you think juviniles are more ignorant than adults about minor crimes?
how so? little crimes are KNOWN by common sense by juviniles as much as adults.
I never did minor crimes even when I was a juvinile. Not all juviniles do bad things. That shows juviniles do what they do by choice.
true, a juvinile is more likely to do minor crimes as well as big ones ocasionaly, however that is becuase they are not tuaght right by their parents. It is also possible they think themselves invincible or something. the only way to deal with them now is show them what their lives would be like if they continue. that cannot be done by letting them off easy.
Lids at the age of 13 or so, in general, know right from wrong. However they DON'T fully associate their actions with consequences.
Kids tend to live in the immediate "now", rather than thinking things through to their conclusion as adults do.
I know that, even as a fairly well behaved and reasonably well educated kid, I would occasionally do some incredibly stupid & dangerous things. Not because I wanted to do something dangerous, but because i got caught up in the excitement of whatever i was doing and then, nly when it was too late, realised that it was a very bad idea and i knew better.
Of course, this can still happen to adults, but it is VERY common among kids.
Playing with matches, playing with dangerous chemicals or fireworks, etc... these are things almost all kids do. Not cos they want to hurt people (or themselves), and not even because they haven't been told it is wrong. But because (a) it is forbidden, therefore exciting, (b) they haven't experienced the consequences.
that and the fact that most kids don't really have feelings of mortality, so they don't really "get" the fact that permanent damage or death might result from their actions as they don;'t really understand the concept.
I would have thought that the tabasco sauce pretty much proved they DIDNT mean to kill people... after all, if you are trying to kill them, why add stuff that tastes funny?
I suspect that the resulting fuss, panic and trouble has scared them into not doing anything like this again. I know it does for a lot of kids.
Kicking a few misguided or prank pulling kids out of school, and into a young offenders institution seems a great way to ensure that they change from silly kids into future badly educated, outsiders and criminals if you ask me...
... but then some people seem to put vengance (vindictiveness) over practicality...
Originally posted by toms
Lids at the age of 13 or so, in general, know right from wrong. However they DON'T fully associate their actions with consequences.
Kids tend to live in the immediate "now", rather than thinking things through to their conclusion as adults do.
I know that, even as a fairly well behaved and reasonably well educated kid, I would occasionally do some incredibly stupid & dangerous things. Not because I wanted to do something dangerous, but because i got caught up in the excitement of whatever i was doing and then, nly when it was too late, realised that it was a very bad idea and i knew better.
Of course, this can still happen to adults, but it is VERY common among kids.
Playing with matches, playing with dangerous chemicals or fireworks, etc... these are things almost all kids do. Not cos they want to hurt people (or themselves), and not even because they haven't been told it is wrong. But because (a) it is forbidden, therefore exciting, (b) they haven't experienced the consequences.
that and the fact that most kids don't really have feelings of mortality, so they don't really "get" the fact that permanent damage or death might result from their actions as they don;'t really understand the concept.
... but then some people seem to put vengance (vindictiveness) over practicality...
...uh NOBODY thiks the consequences fully through when they commit a crime. murderers don't fully think things through when they kill someone. Kids don't think things through when the spray the side of a car in Singapore. If they DID think the consequinces through thhey would never have done the crime in the first place.
you dont see a single criminal who has fully thought the consequinces and then actualy DID the crime know what I mean!
"I didn't think the consequinces" will not exuse their mistake.
I agree with ET on this one. The parents screwed up somewhere.
Sending kids to "prison" or "juvi" is never the solution. Kids learn how to sell drugs, commit crimes, escape from justice in those places.
Instead of going to regular school they go to a school for future criminals.
The truth is, there's no appropriate punishment that doesn't either sound barbaric or just plain useless. Maybe fine them a huge amount of money that they have to pay after they're 18 but prison for kids is NOT the way.
Back to the parents, I believe they should get punished as well. Hell, if you haven't told your kids that bleach is poison and they don't know that it can kill, you deserve a hell of a spanking :D
Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
I agree with ET on this one. The parents screwed up somewhere.
Sending kids to "prison" or "juvi" is never the solution. Kids learn how to sell drugs, commit crimes, escape from justice in those places.
Instead of going to regular school they go to a school for future criminals.
The truth is, there's no appropriate punishment that doesn't either barbaric or just plain useless. Maybe fine them a huge amount of money that they have to pay after they're 18 but prison for kids is NOT the way.
Back to the parents, I believe they should get punished as well. Hell, if you haven't told your kids that bleach is poison and they don't know that it can kill, you deserve a hell of a spanking :D
Two words: BOOT CAMP:laughing::thumbsup:
I am in TOTAL agreement with Kipper here, kids of this age know right from wrong just as well as thirty-somethings do. They may not have maturity in the sense of life-experience, but societal rules and standards are clear by this point in development, as long as the child has had SOME social exposure, or even TV for godsake.
Lids at the age of 13 or so, in general, know right from wrong. However they DON'T fully associate their actions with consequences. Even with the qualification "in general" that's a sweeping blanket statement, and a bit of a fallacy. If you can't associate consequence with action by age 13... by god, you're a sociopath.
The truth is, there's no appropriate punishment that doesn't either barbaric or just plain useless. Maybe fine them a huge amount of money that they have to pay after they're 18 but prison for kids is NOT the way.Sadly, this is correct. There's no punishment that's proven to be effective with juvenile offenders...
But...
There's no punishment that's proven to be effective with adults either. So chuck them all in prison, that's what I say. :D
I would have thought that the tabasco sauce pretty much proved they DIDNT mean to kill people... after all, if you are trying to kill them, why add stuff that tastes funny? I would presume, to attempt to disguise the taste of the bleach. This behaviour is common among serious poisoners.
What kind of punishment do you think they should get?
-I vote boot camp, It worked on talkshows!
-InsaneSith voted to make THEM drink bleach.
Any suggestions?
Community service. Just make sure they don't do any food preparing at old folks homes.
Meh, I don't know.
Originally posted by TK-8252
Community service. Just make sure they don't do any food preparing at old folks homes.
Meh, I don't know.
On the contrary, making them prepare food at nursing homes would be perfect! we will teach them how to cook properlyAND get rid of useless old folks at the same time! kill two birds with one stone!
...JUST KIDDING:p
I admit it would be quite ironic if we made them cook for an old folks home but I fear they might want to take revenge and actually poison the old folks x_x
That doesn't really help but community service is not a bad idea.
Originally posted by kipperthefrog
What kind of punishment do you think they should get?
-I vote boot camp, It worked on talkshows!
Originally posted by kipperthefrog
What kind of punishment do you think they should get?
-I vote boot camp, It worked on talkshows!
A lot of things work on talk shows. Cussing like a crack-pot with turret syndrome and going after your nearest family member with a lawn chair is also effective.
Originally posted by Hiroki
A lot of things work on talk shows. Cussing like a crack-pot with turret syndrome and going after your nearest family member with a lawn chair is also effective.
My dad says it works too.
by the way what is YOUR sugestion?
wouldn't that post be better suited to the abortion and sex education threads?
PLEDGE OR DIE!!!
Yeah, that'll really help those 12 year old girls girls. Throw them in jail away from their parents with the rapists, robbers and murderers...:rolleyes:
Heard of rehabilitation? Psychiatric hospitals? Throwing a 12-year old in jail is about the most idiotic and counter-productive thing you can do. When I was in the hospital, I had a unit-mate about my age who had tried to hang this other guy. Would I want him in jail without psychiatric help? Nope. I was glad he was with us getting help. Was I afraid of him? Nope. Not the least.
People have to stop looking at criminals as something other than humans. These 12-year old girls are just like all other 12-year old girls, except they did something very dumb.
What kind of punishment do you think they should get?
-I vote boot camp, It worked on talkshows!
That's a joke, right?
Well the thing is, they're kids. I highly doubt the governemnt would send kids to prison (talking less than 16ish years old).
You either don't live in the States or you're not aware of what's going on. For your information, the States is where kids go to jail for sneaking into school grounds at night to play football...:rolleyes:
the states has one of the worst "child imprisonment" records of any western country according to amnesty international.
Did i hear something about moves affoot to allow them to try most kids as adults (not that they don't usually manage to do that anyway..)?? Or did i imagine that?
For your information, the States is where kids go to jail for sneaking into school grounds at night to play football...:rolleyes: [/B]
And for bringing scissors, we mustn't forget.
And for the poison cake girls: Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. They oughta be required to get psychiatric help, as well as have it should be made certain that they have lots of regularity in their lives. Such as having to do some sort of work, as well as have things that they are required to do at home on a regular basis to keep them occupied and not concocting ridiculous and very harmful plans. I don't think that locking them up is a good plan. That is just as likely, if not more likely, to cause harm rather than good.
Did i hear something about moves affoot to allow them to try most kids as adults (not that they don't usually manage to do that anyway..)?? Or did i imagine that?
You did indeed hear it. Pure idiotic cruelty.