WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Food and Drug Administration on Wednesday approved an implantable computer chip that can pass a patient's medical details to doctors, speeding care.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/10/13/fda.implant.chip.ap/index.html)



The company that is manufacturing these chips has a deal with Mexico to make these chips for them for $9 million through 2006! It's basically a UPC code that is under your skin identifying you, and now it is legally ok by the FDA. This is straight from George Orwell and other books as well. This thing scares me and I don't like it. It has already been used to identify people for security reasons in Mexico, tested on people in the USA for health identification and used as a credit card in Europe!

If this thing takes off there will be no need for a drivers license, credit card, debit card, social security card, cash or I.D. of any kind. Just hold out your hand and scan. And with the RF technology added to it, if any body wants to know anything about you just scan a room or 100 foot area and "read" who's around and know everything about everybody around.

Conspiracy theory? Maybe, sure, civil rights violation, you better believe it. If you say that it would never be used for that because the government says so then you my friend are, and forgive me for saying this, stupid. The government told us that the withholding of income tax was a temporary fix to quickly generate funds for World War 2 and that's been over for a long time now and withholding is still here. The government said that our social security number would never be used for a personal id number. Do you ever have to give it out to identify yourself? The government told us that when they made it the law to have to buckle your seatbelts in the car that we would never be pulled over just because we didn't have them buckled? Now we are pulled over and our cars can be searched because we didn't buckle up (safety hazard or not, the point is they didn't stick with their promise).

Obviously if the government promises something you can bank on it not happening. This chip is a bad idea.

Heh, thanks but no thanks. The only chips that get put under my skin are the ones I put there.

Originally posted by Loopster
Heh, thanks but no thanks. The only chips that get put under my skin are the ones I put there.

And this is the part where I ask what kind of chips are you putting under your skin :indif:

Originally posted by ET Warrior
And this is the part where I ask what kind of chips are you putting under your skin :indif:

Potato and corn chips would be my first guess.

Originally posted by CapNColostomy
Potato and corn chips would be my first guess.

But....why would you put them under your skin.....

I guess EATING them TECHNICALLY puts them under your skin....:giveup:

Maybe he likes that kind of kinky stuff. :indif:



You won't find me with stuff under my skin. I have a hard enough time with needles.:eek:

"I think this stuff is fantastic, don't you see the possibilities? No more will patients have to suffer and even die while the incompetant filing system makes the doctors wastes precious hours. Even better, we know where terrorists are in the country with the radio-transmitter in the chips."

-Random elite of the US heirarchy. :dozey:

this is crap. just work on electronic file systems, via computers. they might as well just put cameras in our houses in all our rooms and monitor all calls, record all conversations.

Originally posted by Loopster
Heh, thanks but no thanks. The only chips that get put under my skin are the ones I put there.

Yeah right, but then you will find that although it isn't "mandatory" you will get faster medical service when you have one, then you will find it gets extended to make other parts of your life "easier" then you will find you can't easily vote without it... then there will be a terrorist attack or something and they will knee-jerk add laws to require it to go on flights, and to allow the police to check it... and eventually you will find that (a) it isn't used for anything liek it's original purpose and (b) if you don't have one you are going to be shut out of a lot of things.

Thats how these things happen. If they outright tell everyone to get one, they rebel... if they slowly make it inconvenient not to have one... everyone ends up with one...

I wouldn't mind. I wouldnt mind that everyone has an ID under their skin that can be scanned.

Once read a book when i was very young, think it was called "Vechten voor overmorgen" (fight for the day after tomorrow) by 'Evert Hartman'. Anyways, there everyone has an (external) ID card. In a bus for example you just go over it with your scan thing, everything is based on it. It's actually progress, doing things faster but many seem not to want to go "too fast". Treated like pieces of machinery, computers...

I'm not going to jump for it, but i aint scared or disgusted from it

screw this chip thing man, it's just one more step to making us all numbers and serial codes. I'm all for security and convenience, but not at the cost of my anonymity.

Originally posted by InsaneSith
screw this chip thing man, it's just one more step to making us all numbers and serial codes. I'm all for security and convenience, but not at the cost of my anonymity.


Maybe.

Now, is this required? Is everyone going to have to have this?

Tyrion, that's my point. That's what frightens me the most. These chips work on a radio frequency. All they have to do is turn it on with a scanner and find you. No body would be able to hide any where from any one. It would be a great idea if the government were never corrupt. Do you trust your government to get everything right all of the time? Are computers always right? Have you ever been billed incorrectly because of computer error? Has a computer ever been hacked? What happens if the computers all crash?

Imagine if you will, you are in a nasty divorce, or you are trying to purchase some land, or you accidentally cut off some guy in traffic (the situation doesn't really matter the bottom line is that somebody is mad at you) and they make a call to a friend that manages the accounts for the chip guys and your number comes up. You never did anything wrong but your chip says it does. Prove it false. Tell me it will never happen. How hard is it now to fix it when somebody steals your identity now. When somebody steals your chip number you will be really screwed. There is no fail safe system of security. As soon as you think you are 100% safe because of technology you are vulnerable because of it.

If you think that registering each human being like this will make us all safe and more efficient, then ask all of the Jews that survived World War 2 Germany how safe and secure they were when Hitler began registering them for their safety. The reasons we are given for "needing" this chip are the same reasons that Hitler gave the Jews for putting the Star of David on them. The next thing he did was genocide. What enabled him to do it? He knew exactly where every Jew was. If we know exactly where every person is and exactly every measurable information about them, we can discriminate against them with the greatest of ease.

Apply for a job, but before you do you must have your chip scanned to make sure that you are qualified. Why? To check your criminal background? Sure. To check for outstanding warrants, sure. Also to see if you are an illegal immigrant or a wanted terrorist. An employer could also see if you have a mental disorder or if you were a former alcoholic. Maybe you have a speeding ticket and they don't like that. Your job history could be on that chip. There would be no secrets anymore.

If you can't tell this chip frightens me and what the world could become because of it. Yes many things would be more convenient, but many more things would be abused.

precisely, this thing could, and most definitely would, be abused.

Originally posted by Alegis
I wouldn't mind. I wouldnt mind that everyone has an ID under their skin that can be scanned.

Once read a book when i was very young, think it was called "Vechten voor overmorgen" (fight for the day after tomorrow) by 'Evert Hartman'. Anyways, there everyone has an (external) ID card. In a bus for example you just go over it with your scan thing, everything is based on it. It's actually progress, doing things faster but many seem not to want to go "too fast". Treated like pieces of machinery, computers...

I'm not going to jump for it, but i aint scared or disgusted from it

I read a book when i was younger, homeworld by harry harrisson:
HOMEWORLD IS HEAVEN ON EARTH
IF YOU DON'T ASK QUESTIONS...
Homeworld is stable at last, hundreds of years after the collapse of the 20th Century economy. For the millions of proles, life is still a grim ordeal, but for the lucky few, like Engineer Jan Kulozik, there is every kind of luxury. Except one. On Homeworld, where everything and everyone is monitored by the faceless power of government, there is no freedom.
First volume of the To The Stars trilogy. In this story of post-Twentieth Century Earth, Man has recovered from the disaster wrought by the Wasters who used up the planet's reserves of fossil fuels and overpopulated the planet. The all-powerful oligarchical governments which guided the people through the bad times have retained their powerful positions. The population of Britain is divided into two classes, the executive class and the proles. Unemployment runs at 90% among the proles, while the upper-class lives comfortably.
Homeworld is a bleak future vision, a post-microchip version of Orwell's 1984, where the all powerful security forces watch every move and plot lives as though they are pawns in a chess game.
Its getting to be startling accurate...:D

I don't like this one bit. **** 'em, I'd cut myself open and dig the thing out.

I don't want my anonymity to be taken away for "convenience". If I go to apply for a job and they scan my chip to see my criminal record (nothing to hide...yet :p), my medical record (diabetic+other), and hell, maybe my education records, they could reject me for just about any reason and not have to claim it. Not to mention being able to track people...that's just creepy.

Leave me out of this 1984 crap.

Here's another idea. What if they scan you and find out information not just about you, but they see who you are related too and hold that against you? Lets say they start taking into account the medical history of your parents then, or their mental history? If you want to be a school teacher and your father was a pedophile, would they, could they, make an argument that you "could" have been abused by him therefore you too could potentially be a pedophile yourself now? I admit that this a huge jump on my part and maybe I watch to much TV, or maybe I'm paranoid, but it is a possibility. I mean, if McDonalds can get slapped with a law suite from a lady that puts a hot cup of coffee between her own legs and spills it and they can get sued from kids that are fat, then this could happen too.

Convenience? Blast convenience. I'd rather not have every single piece of information on me, from how many hairs I have on my head to my criminal records known to anybody who has the money to buy a scanner. I'd rather keep my anonymity, thank you.

I think that this is a horrendous idea. I am appalled that people are so willing to give up their privacy for convenience, because the more we give the more the powers to be will push.

Originally posted by Nairb Notneb
If you want to be a school teacher and your father was a pedophile, would they, could they, make an argument that you "could" have been abused by him therefore you too could potentially be a pedophile yourself now?

The US government already uses statistical analysis of chopping and library books to identify terrorists... ie, people who buy the same things as terrorists i guess.. who knows...

Pretty soon every single thing you buy will have RFID tags in it, meaning they can track it's entire route. So they can probably track you by that jacket you bought last week anyway... but combine that with this tag... and if it turns out that terrorists like to have salmon on wednesdays and have bad their left teeth then you might be in trouble if you happen to do that too...

Of course, like copy protection on cds, the REAL criminals will know how to get around it, but the rest of us will be oblivious...

To play devil's advocate though, is there any real difference now without the chip? I already carry around my drivers license for id and I issue my social security number all of the time for an id number. What would be the real difference with the exception of speed?

As with all the "monitor everyone everywhere" style technology conspiracies (the technology makes it possible, the conspiracy theory says it will be abused)....

There IS a great potential for it to be abused to invade privacy etc.

And the defense given for it is always "well if you have nothing to hide, if you're a law abiding citizen, you have nothing to worry about."

To that I say, SURE. If you are a law abiding citizen, but let's say that you do something you're not proud of, embarrassed by even. Not something illegal, just something that would hurt your reputation. Now lets say somebody can dig up that dirt on you and tell your friends, family, boss, coworkers, or strangers so they never look at you the same way or treat you the same way again.

It's not their right to have that information, but if the technnology is there it makes it far easier for them to do it.

Thus, a person could be blackmailed, or have their reputation ruined a lot easier. This gives certain people a lot more power to run things. It increases the potential for spam for example because companies could use it to target you for advertising (see "Minority Report" for a great example, as Tom Cruise is passing by those posters and his "eyes" identify him and the ads are sent to him automatically). If somehow you are "blacklisted" for your political opinions, unpopular ideas or something or some other form of discrmination, that can be done too. If you had to change your identity to avoid reprisals (whistle blower on a company scandal, witness against organized crime, etc) it would be harder to "hide."

People harass each other all the time, from harassing emails, to harassing phone calls, people in the street, etc. Folks have a lot of reasons to make it tough for each other due to disagreements or simply because they don't like the way you look or the way you live. This gives folks another tool they can use to hurt one another as much as help.

If you removed your chip you'd disappear off the grid, but then it could be done in such a way as it would be difficult or impossible to remove without painful surgery. Then we have people being denied services if they don't have one, etc.

Credit cards are one thing, it's bad enough that so many things require a credit card, if a person doesn't want one, they don't have many choices. Granted, this isn't completely 100%, but it's even worse with a chip.


I can see it being used for some applications, but requring everyone to have one put in, or putting them in people by force? No way. And if its to replace credit cards, driver's liscense, ID card, etc. then no way, because that's a defacto way of forcing people to get one.

I'm no technophobe, but this is just has too high a potential for abuse.

Don't write off your privacy and freedom for a little bit of extra convenience, I say.

Unfortunately, I feel that this world seems to consider more and more the human being as a simple object whose purpose is to "produce" $$$. I am just looking at the wording that has been developped in the business world over the last decades: instead of speaking of employees, enterprises speak of "human capital" just like any other "asset". Almost everything is measured in terms of monetary performance....and now, this chip...

I believe, this new chip is not only a tool to make our lifes easier and better but another step towards the "machinization" of the human being, an important breach in the principles of freedom and privacy. George Orwell might have been wrong by only 20 years...

I am afraid this 1984 scenario is likely to affect our lifes much more than suspected. It starts with a simple chip that is presented with the advantage of being able to "pass a patient's medical details to doctors, speeding care".

However, how long will it be before other sectors adopt the same method and our every single move can be tracked? How long will it be before insurance companies start requiring this chip or give rebates to those equipped with this chip in the name of safety and diminished risk? (while in fact they evaluate their risk of having to pay - what if they find that what you buy at the grocery store doesn't meet their criteria of healthy food? They could deny your insurance policy, per example) What are we ready to sacrifice in the name of a "risk-free"society?

What about the " if you're a law abiding citizen, you have nothing to hide and nothing to worry about" ? If some people don't care about giving away every centimeter of their privacy, it is not true for everyone: the physical and psychological needs of individuals vary from one another. Many specialists and writers, among them, Kundera, recognized that privacy is essential to the development of human individuality. No one acts the same in private than in public or when they know they could or are observed. This technology could be easily abused and a lot of information could be misused. Human nature requires a certain degree of intimacy and privacy and the invasion of privacy can have devastating effects on all human beings. Recent history is filled with public enquiries that have lead to suicides and depressions...

Privacy invasion can also affect society in general, have a "chilling effect" to use a well known Court expression in privacy cases. Society evolves because there are public debates, exchange of opinions. Privacy invasion by governments and others can discourage political dissent, freedom of speech, participation of people in debates, associations, etc. The more people know about you, the more power they have over you (to those who haven't read 1984 by George Orwell, then go to the store and get that book - it's been written 50 years ago but it is still quite up to date...perhaps more than ever.).

I am not American but I can't believe that they are ready to approve this chip while they let people possess guns in the name of freedom.

Not that I am against new technology (I wouldn't be here), on the contrary, I like to see new things but this is a door I wish remains closed. I like to have some control over the personal information I give away.

Your cellphone can traced to give your position via GPS.
Your phonelines can be monitered via digital system.
Your email can be intercepted and read without you knowing.
CCTV cameras moniter towns and cities 24 hours a day (some with powerful face recognition software).
Chips in cars to combat 'theft' can track your car's position via GPS.
You credit card usage can be monitered at any time.

Don't you think it's too late to be worrying about these things? They can already do all of this stuff.

Originally posted by iamtrip
Your cellphone can traced to give your position via GPS.
Your phonelines can be monitered via digital system.
Your email can be intercepted and read without you knowing.
CCTV cameras moniter towns and cities 24 hours a day (some with powerful face recognition software).
Chips in cars to combat 'theft' can track your car's position via GPS.
You credit card usage can be monitered at any time.

Don't you think it's too late to be worrying about these things? They can already do all of this stuff.

I know this but I still have the choice to use or not most of these devices and it's far from being as invasive as an implanted chip. As for the cameras that monitor towns and cities, when I walk in the streets I am already in public places. It is not because those things already exist that we have to give everything away.

Nanoprobes.....everywhere......can't fight them all.........they're inside.........resistance is futile.

All the information that is being discussed as being put into these chips are information that is already available to find. It would only make it a little easier to view, but it hardly becomes public knowledge. The people who would be able to dig this information up, are the same people who could hack their way into your records anyway. And as far as identity theft, IMO it makes it harder for someone to committ this crime. They would have to reprogram their chip to replicate yours. Now, the example of jobs has been brought up. People are forgetting that the corporations still need to hire as many workers. So all that would change, is that employees would be able to make a more informed decision about who gets better jobs. So if companies are now getting better workers, their efficiency will increase and it will boost the economy. Also, people are acting like they will implant recording devices into them. IMO, it is very difficult for a Democratic-Republic to take over complete control of its citizens. I think that people are just paranoid, because there have been so many stories about government oppression, not unlike 1984.

Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
All the information that is being discussed as being put into these chips are information that is already available to find. It would only make it a little easier to view, but it hardly becomes public knowledge. The people who would be able to dig this information up, are the same people who could hack their way into your records anyway. And as far as identity theft, IMO it makes it harder for someone to committ this crime. They would have to reprogram their chip to replicate yours. Now, the example of jobs has been brought up. People are forgetting that the corporations still need to hire as many workers. So all that would change, is that employees would be able to make a more informed decision about who gets better jobs. So if companies are now getting better workers, their efficiency will increase and it will boost the economy. Also, people are acting like they will implant recording devices into them. IMO, it is very difficult for a Democratic-Republic to take over complete control of its citizens. I think that people are just paranoid, because there have been so many stories about government oppression, not unlike 1984.


What you said is simply a part of the larger picture. It is not incorrect, but you fail to recognise the cons of such an invention. Know that if this actually gets implemented in everyone, then anybody who has the ability to buy such a scanner, would be able to know your criminal records, what you think of society, basically just anything people can think of to put within this small chip. You say, "The people who would be able to dig this information up, are the same people who could hack their way into your records anyway.". I say that this is the easiest way, indeed the fastest, to hack into somebody's records, perhaps a person who wants to put his criminal records behind him, to start a new life. This is the easiest way to find out anything about the person standing beside you, without asking him a thing. This is the easiest way to spite a person, to publicise his misdeeds, perhaps because he accidentally stepped on your toe.


Originally posted by Darth333
I know this but I still have the choice to use or not most of these devices and it's far from being as invasive as an implanted chip. As for the cameras that monitor towns and cities, when I walk in the streets I am already in public places. It is not because those things already exist that we have to give everything away.

Few modern people IMO can actually step away from these things, precisely because it is greatly integrated within our lives. For example, the cellphone is an important part of business; it enables you to be contacted anywhere, anytime. These people can add things they wish to our modern gadgets, and it is difficult to walk away from all these. Plus, I have a feeling EVERYONE is going to be coerced into implementing the chips, so escaping it MIGHT (it's just my opinion, don't take it too seriously) get you in court.

Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin
IMO, it is very difficult for a Democratic-Republic to take over complete control of its citizens. I think that people are just paranoid, because there have been so many stories about government oppression, not unlike 1984.

Really? I think we are closer now than ever to having a select few (rich individuals and corporations) have control over almost every phase of our lives. As long as you are happy to go along doing and hearing what you are told you will be fine... but want to do anything different and you will run into problems.

Almost all the bad things that have ever been done (by governments or technology or science) have had good intentions and good uses. Trying to force people to do something has been proven to cause resistance... making it inconvenient or expensive not to (and therefore appear more convenient and cheaper to) has been proven to work. Corporations cottoned on to this way before governments. We are getting scarilly close to making OCP from the robocop films look like a reality.

Personal freedom is a fallacy. Going off the technological information available to us at this moment, everything we ever do is likely to be monitored.
I think the proof is in 'Demzilla' and the other (forgot its name) program, which collects (publicly available) personal data and extrapolates upon election issues which would effect each person, individually.

Remember, we're only aware of technology a government wants its people to know about. Who knows what additional kinds of technology are already in use.

Originally posted by Druid Bremen
Know that if this actually gets implemented in everyone, then anybody who has the ability to buy such a scanner, would be able to know your criminal records, what you think of society, basically just anything people can think of to put within this small chip.


I was assuming that there would be some kind of coding, preventing more sensitive material from being viewed by unauthorized people. In that sense, it is no different than an internet hacker, only you have to be there. I highly doubt that any scanning by anyone with a scanner could get to everything, that seems like a ridiculous assumption in my opinion.

yeah, but not everyone has ALL their personal info on their computer. This chip on the other hand, does. And with an internet hacker, there are things you can do about it, this you can't, it's a chimp implanted into you.

I think that many of misunderstand the way they plan on using this chip at the moment, of course it can all change. According to the companies web site (The company is based in Florida, USA) the chip is about the size of a grain of rice and is similar to those that have been placed in pet animals (dogs, cats) for years now (my cat has one actually).

The only information the chip itself has on it is an identification number on it identifying me (like 666 or something for example) (I just picked a random umber there is no significance to that number at all). When the chip is scanned, the scanner sends to it enough power to activate it. It then sends out a radio frequency broadcasting out its id number to the scanner telling the scanner who I am. Then the scanner will access the main database to get my information.

Several things will be very important. The chip on my person identifies only me (in theory), anyone with scanning equipment can get to my information, anyone that can get to the database can alter my information.

This is my problem. Tell me why this is safer for me and my children. I currently shred receipts, past bills, and those stupid credit card applications that I always get that they want me to sign up for that I don't want so people won't use them in my name. If somebody gets a clone of my chip and keeps scanning the back of their hand at Wal-Mart to buy underwear I'll be very upset.

Could they clone these chips? Can they clone cell phones? Copy DVD's? Hack computers? Is Windows safe? The new service pack two now has over 20 holes in it and it hasn't been out that long (according to the article I read two days ago).

Boost the economy? Sure from the back of my hand and out of my wallet why I get thrown out on the street because I can't pay the bills that somebody else ran up. this is not any safer than what we have now.

Only thing i can say, is that most of what you said can be true about any of your information that is stored on a computer (which is a lot). As far as being able to clone it, it seems no easier than copying a Driver's Liscence, Social Security Card, etc.; but I have to admitt that I know little about what it takes to copy those things.

I agree Shok, this new tech brings about nothing new in my eyes, only that it will make it much faster for people to take your information because it will all be concentrated in one location, or it will only required your chip id number to get it.

The manufacturers are billing that because the chip is physically on you it will make it more secure. Why would that be true? If that were true then I shouldn't be afraid of my credit card because I have never lost it.

Why don't they just tatoo bar codes on the back of our hands when we are born.. would be a lot less easy to fake...

Not a bad idea. That's not a bad selling point for these things.

As soon as your baby is born, even before the umbilical chord is cut, implant a tracking, I mean an identification chip in him/her right away. This way we will be able to know everything about him his entier life, err, I mean YOU will not be able to loose him/her. It will keep your baby from being stolen from the hospital by an evil nurse!