Might it actually be (and cast the dogmatic ideal of the unquestionability of mankind's survival aside, if even for a moment) that we indeed, through our growing intellect, are on a road to a fuller understanding of existence that will eventually overcome our primal, genetic urges and lead us to the discontinuation of our existence as a species as the logic viable result? In other words, will rationale at some point finally get the better of emotion and we can quietly return to the oblivion from whence we came?

So what? Logic wins and we cease to exist? Come on. I don't think that any single force or facet of human existence was meant to overpower and obliterate the others. Logic and Emotion are and should remain two opposing forces that balance each other out. Also I don't know about you but I DO care about the survival and evolution of my species. Call illogical biological imperitives if you will, but I'd much rather have a flawed and living species than a perfect and non existent one.

As for my point about "replacing" religion with rationale thought I wasn't being clear enough. I meant what institution would you create to replace religion? Not the ideas but how the school of logic would be taught and passed on from generation to generation. Because you can't just say POOF and make religion disappear and let "pure" logic take it's place. You'd have to actually get you hands dirty on that one.

I wouldn't polute mankind with morality. Morality finds only true disciples in the few, hypocrites in the many, and ignorance in the rest.

Either that's a subtle reference to Taoism's "have no laws and people won't be criminals" concept or that was a gross generalization. I just can't decide...

As for talking about compassion and empathy as subjects of the mind, I don't quite disagree with you. Although the organ of the brain is the biological source of our emotional imperatives, there needs to remain a line of seperation between logical thought and acting your more benevolent emotions. Often times it is impossible to logically justify benevolence, you just do it.

On another note, does anyone know why my last post went length wise like that? I don't know how to fix that. Anyway, Carry On Folks!

Originally posted by JediLiberator
.... Also I don't know about you but I DO care about the survival and evolution of my species. Call illogical biological imperitives if you will, but I'd much rather have a flawed and living species than a perfect and non existent one.

And that view, shared by the vast majority, is exactly what allows pain to endure. And you, as a Christian, don't even feel no shame for it!

Originally posted by JediLiberator
As for my point about "replacing" religion with rationale thought I wasn't being clear enough. I meant what institution would you create to replace religion? Not the ideas but how the school of logic would be taught and passed on from generation to generation. Because you can't just say POOF and make religion disappear and let "pure" logic take it's place. You'd have to actually get you hands dirty on that one.

You persistently carry on as if I'm interested in the continued existence of mankind; quite the contrary, I'm immensely in favour of its annihilation.

Originally posted by JediLiberator
Either that's a subtle reference to Taoism's "have no laws and people won't be criminals" concept or that was a gross generalization. I just can't decide...

It was supposed to enlighten you of the fact that we are little more than primal in our emotional workings. Morality is more often embraced out of fear than compassion. Without morality man would live purer to his emotions and the weak would soon become extinct.

Originally posted by JediLiberator
..... there needs to remain a line of seperation between logical thought and acting your more benevolent emotions.

Erm, the brain is divided into several areas (though I'm not suggesting they work completely independent from each other)...you are aware of this, right? But pray tell, of what would this line of seperation consist?

Originally posted by JediLiberator
Often times it is impossible to logically justify benevolence, you just do it.

I surmise that you regard benevolence as an act of unselfishness. While there is most likely a long history containing many elements that would explain how benevolence entered the picture of man, I will roughly explain benevolence as a surplus in the relationship of one specimen of a species to another. For many centuries man has been an animal not needing his full resource of strength at all times to survive, allowing him to look to his fellow man and share of this surplus.

Ah, Jubatus wants the death of man. No wonder he seems like he is insane. o.O

Originally posted by Hiroki
Ah, Jubatus wants the death of man. No wonder he seems like he is insane. o.O

Not merely the death of man, the annihilation. And indeed it does seem insane (yet that term is subject to semantics) to your dogmatic beliefs, but my conviction originates from simple logic, rationale and compassion, for where you see non-existence as negative I see it as the ultimate balance point, where we will be truly freed.

umm yeah... I think I can say I win! (Can one win these sorts of debates?) :p

Against somebody who wishes for the Annihilation of man? I think you win by simply ignoring him as a babbling loony. :p

And if being Dogmatic means not desiring the annihilation of your own species, then I am glad I am. ;)

He's a follower of the pessimistic philosophy.

He follows the pattern of people like Jean-Paul Sartre and Albert Camus, both nihilist philosophers and at the same time violently atheists.

Figured it was something like that. I see nothing good out of him myself. His way of thinking leads to being pessimistic, which, in my opinion, is bad in itself. So his opinions of religion no longer bother me, now that I know that.

Thank you Luke.

Originally posted by Jubatus
...for where you see non-existence as negative I see it as the ultimate balance point, where we will be truly freed.

We don't see dying as negative because we go to Heaven after. And your statement right there is blatenly wrong about Christian beliefs but the last part of your statement sounds kinda like religion to me. :p

Originally posted by JediLiberator
umm yeah... I think I can say I win! (Can one win these sorts of debates?) :p

Elaborate.

Originally posted by Hiroki
Against somebody who wishes for the Annihilation of man? I think you win by simply ignoring him as a babbling loony.

How very altruistically Christian of you.

Originally posted by Hiroki
And if being Dogmatic means not desiring the annihilation of your own species, then I am glad I am.

And you blindly skip along happily knowing that with your assistance in the continuation of mankind you contribute to pain. And you call me insane...

Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
He's a follower of the pessimistic philosophy.

Realistic, not pessimistic.

Originally posted by Hiroki
I see nothing good out of him myself. His way of thinking leads to being pessimistic, which, in my opinion, is bad in itself. So his opinions of religion no longer bother me, now that I know that.

You're not supposed to see "good", but balance. And as said previously, my way of thinking leads to realism, not pessimism, but then again I am quite sure you do not fully know my way of thinking.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
We don't see dying as negative because we go to Heaven after.

Read more carefully, I said annihilation, not merely death.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
And your statement right there is blatenly wrong about Christian beliefs ...

What statement?

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
... but the last part of your statement sounds kinda like religion to me.

It may sound like it to you, but it isn't.

I believe your philosophy is violently dangerous, and potentially destructive myself. And not only with fanatics. It saddens me to see people who have such goals as the "annihilation" of man. You say I spread pain by not desiring it? You sound like one of the gimps who "just can't take it anymore" and kill themselves.

Save me you life sucks rants. Try and actually get out there and enjoy it, before you try and "annihilate" it...and yes, that is pessimistic.

Actually, I think Jubatus has a point there regarding the annihilation of men. Thousands of people are dying each day, I wouldn't be surprised if one day, though we don't know when, the entire species of men might be extinct.

Terrorists, serial rapers, murderers, cannibals abound, where is the love? We kill one another more than animals killing their own species. Men, with his intelligence, has made the world better, and worse in a way, of which the latter will be his undoing.

Originally posted by Jubatus
Realistic, not pessimistic.


Call it what you want, I have study philosophy. You follow pessimistic philosophy.
Pessimism doesn't exactly have the same meaning in philosophy. Mostly includes people who think that humanity should "restart".

Um yeah so lets say mankind IS annihilited jubatus. What then, you'd still have a planet containing a variety of species that are now free of the fear of immediate extinction and can evolve to the same level as us(within a few million years) and live and suffer all over again.
Or if you want to go on an even higher level, lets say the entire universe was annihilated. Then (brace yourselves, some physics here) you would have a massive gathering of potential energy, and all it takes is one "spark" to set that energy off and then we could have a restart of the universe all over again. So what exactly would you hope to accomplish with your "triumph of logic"? In the end even if you win, you'll still lose.
The simple reality of existense is we live, we feel, and we have self awareness. What purpose would be served; having all three of these gifts and not using them to explore and sometimes preserve the universe we live in?
As for balance, balance can been found when opposing forces are equal, or at least close to it. Your view would suggest order should be paramount, and that certainly does NOT sound balanced to me.

Originally posted by Hiroki
I believe your philosophy is violently dangerous, and potentially destructive myself. And not only with fanatics. It saddens me to see people who have such goals as the "annihilation" of man. You say I spread pain by not desiring it? You sound like one of the gimps who "just can't take it anymore" and kill themselves.

Save me you life sucks rants. Try and actually get out there and enjoy it, before you try and "annihilate" it...and yes, that is pessimistic.

My philosophy is not about violence, if anything the end of violence is included in it. And as for people wanting the annihilation of man saddening you, well, tough titty, because here we are.

I said you contribute to pain, not spreading it, by merely supporting the continuation of man, because there can be no sentient life without pain - to think that Utopia is possible is sheer folly for as long as we are different, there will be conflict on all levels, from individual petty jealousy to full scale wars. In addition conflict must be for man to evolve. So yes, in not desiring pain you yet contribute to it.

As for killing myself I am rather close to that point, but not because "I can't take it anymore" but because I see no point in taking it - life is irrational, it's like Sisyphus' punishment.

If I could get out to enjoy life and forget about the annihilation of man, why don't I?

Originally posted by Druid Allanon
Terrorists, serial rapers, murderers, cannibals abound, where is the love? We kill one another more than animals killing their own species. Men, with his intelligence, has made the world better, and worse in a way, of which the latter will be his undoing.

And the sooner the better. Thus it would me far more compassionate to do it in one swift stroke rather than through generations of further pain.

Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
Call it what you want, I have study philosophy. You follow pessimistic philosophy.
Pessimism doesn't exactly have the same meaning in philosophy. Mostly includes people who think that humanity should "restart".

Call it what you want then, I'll call it realism. And I don't want a restart of mankind, I want it ended forever.

Originally posted by JediLiberator
Um yeah so lets say mankind IS annihilited jubatus. What then, you'd still have a planet containing a variety of species that are now free of the fear of immediate extinction and can evolve to the same level as us(within a few million years) and live and suffer all over again.
Or if you want to go on an even higher level, lets say the entire universe was annihilated. Then (brace yourselves, some physics here) you would have a massive gathering of potential energy, and all it takes is one "spark" to set that energy off and then we could have a restart of the universe all over again. So what exactly would you hope to accomplish with your "triumph of logic"? In the end even if you win, you'll still lose.
The simple reality of existense is we live, we feel, and we have self awareness. What purpose would be served; having all three of these gifts and not using them to explore and sometimes preserve the universe we live in?
As for balance, balance can been found when opposing forces are equal, or at least close to it. Your view would suggest order should be paramount, and that certainly does NOT sound balanced to me.

Guess I should have said annihilation of all existence from the start, for that is what I really want...don't really know why I started and stuck with merely mankind...oh well, nevermind. Oh, wait, looking back to where I started with it I see it was because it fitted into the context of where our discussion was at the time.

Anyway, that takes care of your whole argument right there, because with the annihilation of all existence there would be nothing to start over with. Balance is when 1 and -1 meet to become 0.

And then another big bang occurs...
after all, in the beginning there was nothing right? ;)

lol, We have our very own madman bent on the destruction of the universe. The wackiness of Lucas forums continues to grow. ;)

Originally posted by JediLiberator
And then another big bang occurs...
after all, in the beginning there was nothing right? ;)

Nothing can happen from nothing, but that is besides the point. What I'm trying to get across is that the discontinuing of all and any existence is all things considered for the best, it is to be wished for and if possible to be worked against, if one possesses the enlightenment and compassion to see it.

Originally posted by Hiroki
lol, We have our very own madman bent on the destruction of the universe. The wackiness of Lucas forums continues to grow.

It is easiest for you to write me of as a madman, but since you will not understand me at least you have to accept that I am. I am of the same species as you, I grew up on the same planet in the same time as you, and I am where I stand now with my convictions - that you cannot deny. And trust that I do not consider myself mad, au contrare.

Oh you're not mad Jubatus, I just don't agree with you, at all. As for not getting something from nothing, if you physically annihilated everything you'd have a universe's worth of POTENTIAL energy, so even if you have nothing with physical form , you still have SOMETHING. It just can't be seen. In essense true emptiness is really impossible( speaking from what little I know of science).
I do have a question for you though, if pain is such a bad consequence of being alive that you prefer annihilation, how can you explain why you haven't attempted to annihilate yourself? Not to sound nasty or anything, but from your philisophical standpoint that seems like the logical next step in this process you speak of. What "illogical" impulses keep you from individual annihilation?

Originally posted by JediLiberator
Oh you're not mad Jubatus, I just don't agree with you, at all. As for not getting something from nothing, if you physically annihilated everything you'd have a universe's worth of POTENTIAL energy, so even if you have nothing with physical form , you still have SOMETHING. It just can't be seen. In essense true emptiness is really impossible( speaking from what little I know of science).

Aye, conventional science says that the amount of energy in our universe is a constant and that it can only change state. I've never claimed that the annihilation of all existence is possible, only that it is desirable.

Originally posted by JediLiberator
I do have a question for you though, if pain is such a bad consequence of being alive that you prefer annihilation, how can you explain why you haven't attempted to annihilate yourself? Not to sound nasty or anything, but from your philisophical standpoint that seems like the logical next step in this process you speak of. What "illogical" impulses keep you from individual annihilation?

Because I do not know if it's at all possible to do so. Sure, I can kill myself, but that does not guarantee the end of consciousness/awareness as there might actually be something after death. It is an irrational fear, I know, since I am bound to die eventually and nothing in my current knowledge can guide me to change what might be in store for me, be it Heaven or Hell or reincarnation or just some continuation of awareness in whatever state, spiritual or otherwise. So it is also the thought that some insight might come along and more importantly that I will only be able to use that insight to influence after-life matters from the living side of death's door, so to speak.

In addition there are habits that briefly keep my mind off of it; I get sleepy so I sleep, I wake up and feel hungry so I eat, I need to use the bathroom and so on. Then there is the awareness of the pain I would inflict upon family and friends were I to commit suicide. Then again, the balance of suffering my personal pains are slowly outweighing the urge to hang around to keep them from suffering, since it gets harder and harder to justify my own pain for their sake, because I'm getting more and more to the point where I bring no joy to them. Finally there is the compassionate side in me, albeit small, that wishes the end of mankind for all my fellow human beings, for I am no naпve fool beliefs we can ever exist as a whole without pain.

I just wish I could somehow erase this irrational fear of oblivion from man. I guess he will get wiser further down the line, or who knows, perhaps he will get lucky enough to be eradicated by some cosmic event, snuffed out of existence in the blink of an eye.

Well, if you don't hurry the process along, why not just enjoy the ride? "Life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced."

Nihilism (http://atheism.about.com/cs/nihilismandathei/)

More about Nihilism (http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/general/bldef_nihilism.htm)

Better definition of nihilism from this website (http://ws5.com/nihilism/)

What is nihilism? Encarta defines nihilism (from Latin nihil, "nothing") as a "designation applied to various radical philosophies, usually by their opponents, the implication being that adherents of these philosophies reject all positive values and believe in nothing." (Encarta, Copyright (c) 1994 Microsoft Corporation) Webster's Dictionary defines nihilism as - "(1) (a) a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless (b) a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths (2) a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility..." ((c) 1997 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated). We will be discussing the idea that true nihilists "believe in nothing". We will suggest that any use of the word that includes active destruction of anything is an unjustified extension of the concepts underlying nihilism. We will suggest that there are no logical grounds for what is often called "positive" or "active" nihilism. In doing so we will be questioning the very foundation of the works of modern philosophers who argue that one may find or create "value" in a world without a life after death, a nihilistic world.

You are a pessimist, a nihilist.

You should try gothic fashion Jubatus, if you haven't already. That social group would be a balm for your spirit. As for Hiroki, what a stick in the mud!

Originally posted by JediLiberator
Well, if you don't hurry the process along, why not just enjoy the ride? "Life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced."

Because of the pain...havn't you been reading anything I've written?

Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad
You are a pessimist, a nihilist.

I'm a nihilist absolute, yes and a realist. Why are you so persistent in shoving down the label "pessimist" down my throat? But then again (again) call it as you see it and I'll call it as I see it.

Originally posted by Spider AL
You should try gothic fashion Jubatus, if you haven't already. That social group would be a balm for your spirit. As for Hiroki, what a stick in the mud!

Gothic fashion? Eww, but, er, thanks for the concern.

Why would he think adhering to a fashion minority would help ...? Oh well ...

Wow...I think if eating, sleeping and pissing were the only things keeping me from killing myself, I'd...yeah...I'd kill myself. Must be some pretty bad "pain" you're going through to reach that low. Well for what it's worth (and I know it's worth nothing, since you want everyone destroyed or whatever), I hope things start looking up for you. Maybe you could go to church and meet a nice young lady? ;)


























That last bit was a joke...So why isn't anyone laughing?

Originally posted by CapNColostomy
Wow...I think if eating, sleeping and pissing were the only things keeping me from killing myself, I'd...yeah...I'd kill myself. Must be some pretty bad "pain" you're going through to reach that low. Well for what it's worth (and I know it's worth nothing, since you want everyone destroyed or whatever), I hope things start looking up for you.

Sleeping, eating and going to the bathroom were just parts of the reasons; read more carefully. And they were not reasons in themselves, but pointing out the natural distractions from continual nihilistic thought - I'm not all "mind over matter" here ... But with a name like colostomy I can see why your focus would go there :p

Actually I think there are two things that stop us from killing ourselves. One is our irrational fear of the unknown. We all die. All of us.

Everyone who's ever lived has died, or will die. It's the only inevitable thing in life, so why do we fear that which is so common, and so inevitable? There's no logic to it, so it must be termed an irrational fear. But it's the unknown factor that scares some of us the most. What is death? Is it nothingness? Is it the death of all that we are and were? Is it the universe's mockery of our petty struggle?

Or is death merely destruction of the flesh? Does our soul, all that makes us who we are, live on after the body has disintegrated? Or does our life-energy, bereft of purpose and personality continue and find another role in the endless interchange of mass and matter...

The other thing that stops us topping ourselves is merely instinct.

So hey! Don't fear the reaper, and don't be ruled by instinct. Find a moral basis for life! Create your own law and justice in a world which knows neither! WAHEY!

Originally posted by Jubatus
read more carefully

I read plenty carefully. I just didn't see any need mentioning the only other reason you gave in the post I was referring to, because I don't like sceaming the obvious if I can avoid it. Nobody knows what happens when they die. There I said it. Which wasn't really needed, because it's been said a bazillion times here already. But if it makes you think your posts are being read "carefully"...

Originally posted by Spider AL
Actually I think there are two things that stop us from killing ourselves. One is our irrational fear of the unknown. We all die. All of us.

Everyone who's ever lived has died, or will die. It's the only inevitable thing in life, so why do we fear that which is so common, and so inevitable? There's no logic to it, so it must be termed an irrational fear. But it's the unknown factor that scares some of us the most. What is death? Is it nothingness? Is it the death of all that we are and were? Is it the universe's mockery of our petty struggle?

Or is death merely destruction of the flesh? Does our soul, all that makes us who we are, live on after the body has disintegrated? Or does our life-energy, bereft of purpose and personality continue and find another role in the endless interchange of mass and matter...

The other thing that stops us topping ourselves is merely instinct.

All these thoughts have been through my head and they have all been scrutinized again and again, and we quite agree that the two major factors against suicide is fear of what might lie beyond death and genetic selfpreservation instinct.

Originally posted by Spider AL
So hey! Don't fear the reaper, and don't be ruled by instinct. Find a moral basis for life! Create your own law and justice in a world which knows neither! WAHEY!

That's an option but not one I care to pursue, for I would only be building up new delusions for myself and that would be counterproductive against my strife for ceasing to be hypocritical.

Originally posted by CapNColostomy
I read plenty carefully. I just didn't see any need mentioning the only other reason you gave in the post I was referring to, because I don't like sceaming the obvious if I can avoid it. Nobody knows what happens when they die. There I said it. Which wasn't really needed, because it's been said a bazillion times here already. But if it makes you think your posts are being read "carefully"...

But you did state that the reasons you did mention was the only reasons, and now you say you know there were others, others far more important. And mock me to your mind's content, but it is common, polite practice to actually read and comprehend to the best of your ability the writings of anyone you want to comment later. It simply makes for better debates. But perhaps that wasn't your intent.

Originally posted by Jubatus
But you did state that the reasons you did mention was the only reasons, and now you say you know there were others, others far more important. And mock me to your mind's content, but it is common, polite practice to actually read and comprehend to the best of your ability the writings of anyone you want to comment later. It simply makes for better debates. But perhaps that wasn't your intent.

Actually, now I must ask that you read more carefully. I said, and I quote:Originally posted by CapNColostomy
Wow...I think if eating, sleeping and pissing were the only things keeping me from killing myself, I'd...yeah...I'd kill myself.

Notice the use of the words "I", "me", "myself" and "I'd"? That should've indicated that I was talking about me, and not you. I never said those are the only reasons, I said IF they were, etc...Once again, I saw no need to mention the only other reason, because it's stating the obvious. I wasn't and still am not mocking you. But if it's common, polite practice to actually read and comprehend to the best of your ability the writings of anyone you want to comment later, bceause it simply makes for better debates, then why haven't you done so? But at any rate, you're right, having a debate, of whatever quality wasn't my intent. I was just making a comment. Take it or leave it. I'll be showing myself the door now. Take 'er easy.

PS, Thanos kicked ass in The Infinity Gauntlet. ;)

Originally posted by CapNColostomy
Actually, now I must ask that you read more carefully....
Notice the use of the words "I", "me", "myself" and "I'd"? That should've indicated that I was talking about me, and not you. I never said those are the only reasons, I said IF they were, etc...Once again, I saw no need to mention the only other reason, because it's stating the obvious. I wasn't and still am not mocking you. But if it's common, polite practice to actually read and comprehend to the best of your ability the writings of anyone you want to comment later, bceause it simply makes for better debates, then why haven't you done so? But at any rate, you're right, having a debate, of whatever quality wasn't my intent. I was just making a comment. Take it or leave it. I'll be showing myself the door now. Take 'er easy.

I stand corrected, and to make it worse it actually came to my mind that you could use this very thing against me....guess I reckoned you wouldn't pick up on it - serves me right for underestimating you.

Originally posted by CapNColostomy
PS, Thanos kicked ass in The Infinity Gauntlet.

Damn straight. But then again, when does he not?

All these thoughts have been through my head and they have all been scrutinized again and again, and we quite agree that the two major factors against suicide is fear of what might lie beyond death and genetic selfpreservation instinct.Excellent! You're on the right track so far. Agreeing with Spider is a wonderful first step! :D

That's an option but not one I care to pursue, for I would only be building up new delusions for myself and that would be counterproductive against my strife for ceasing to be hypocritical.Delusions? If you think that any "struggle for honesty" consists of aught else, you're the delusional one. Oh, I'm not talking Matrix here. This is air we're breathing and our muscles do have quite a lot to do with how strong and fast we are in this place.

I'm talking delusions of this sort: "I matter." "I am on a quest." "Truth is important." None of these things are so, and they are a hindrance to the TRUE realisation of truth, that there is no truth but that which we ourselves make for ourselves. The truth of the now, and the truth of the real.

My truth is that I care about some things, and I wish to continue to commune with these things throughout my life. And, I wish to utterly crush those that would harm or damage that which I care about, summarily. Whether I can manage to do so or not is merely in the luck of the draw.

Decide what you yourself care about. That's the only thing in the world that isn't based on delusion, because it comes from the gut. It gratifies that primitive portion of the spirit that pre-dates self-awareness. It pre-dates man and his lies. Hypocrisy? Hypocrisy is impossible when all you are is reactionary, when all you do is fuelled by what makes you who you really are. Let your mind serve your being, not the other way around, as everyone else does.

If for example you decide that you like... your PC, commune with it to your heart's content, and defend it with your life. This is honour. This, is truth.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Excellent! You're on the right track so far. Agreeing with Spider is a wonderful first step! :D

You don't really think I've taken any step after reading your post, now do you? You brought nothing new to my mind, as I told you.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Delusions? If you think that any "struggle for honesty" consists of aught else, you're the delusional one. Oh, I'm not talking Matrix here. This is air we're breathing and our muscles do have quite a lot to do with how strong and fast we are in this place.

I'm talking delusions of this sort: "I matter." "I am on a quest." "Truth is important." None of these things are so, and they are a hindrance to the TRUE realisation of truth, that there is no truth but that which we ourselves make for ourselves. The truth of the now, and the truth of the real.


I am not struggling for any "higher truth", for I too know that any and all truths we hold for ourselves are subjective, and some of these are delusions we dogmatically adhere to in order to justify existence to ourselves. I've stripped myself of all such common societal delusions and I'm left with the two major concerns we've already addressed; fear and instinct, plus a small portion of compassion for family and friends.

Originally posted by Spider AL
My truth is that I care about some things, and I wish to continue to commune with these things throughout my life. And, I wish to utterly crush those that would harm or damage that which I care about, summarily. Whether I can manage to do so or not is merely in the luck of the draw.

And in the annihilation of all no one will ever come to harm again. Though most people refuse to see the compassionate truth of this out of that irrational fear of oblivion.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Decide what you yourself care about. That's the only thing in the world that isn't based on delusion, because it comes from the gut. It gratifies that primitive portion of the spirit that pre-dates self-awareness. It pre-dates man and his lies. Hypocrisy? Hypocrisy is impossible when all you are is reactionary, when all you do is fuelled by what makes you who you really are. Let your mind serve your being, not the other way around, as everyone else does.

If for example you decide that you like... your PC, commune with it to your heart's content, and defend it with your life. This is honour. This, is truth.

I care about not existing - that is my truth.

You don't really think I've taken any step after reading your post, now do you? You brought nothing new to my mind, as I told you.If nothing new was received by your mind following my post, it's hardly my responsibility. ;)

I am not struggling for any "higher truth",You said: "that would be counterproductive against my strife for ceasing to be hypocritical." Though the grammar in that sentence was questionable I think I read it aright, and I'd say that any struggle to eradicate hypocrisy in others or oneself would qualify as a struggle for honesty and therefore truth.

As for the phrase "higher truth", you're the only one who's used it. I certainly did not. Truth is truth, there is nothing more true than truth, tacking the word "higher" onto it is redundant.

And in the annihilation of all no one will ever come to harm again. Though most people refuse to see the compassionate truth of this out of that irrational fear of oblivion.Such a militant stance is both unoriginal and pedestrian, people who hold the same opinion are ten-a-penny. I myself held it briefly when I was thirteen and angst-ridden. Granted, mine was focussed only on the eradication of homo sapiens, and therefore more to do with my immature philosophy regarding man's responsibility for his effect on the planet, but the point holds...

While there is no intractible "point" to existence, there is likewise no "point" to oblivion. Thus since one can instinctively create a "point" to live for, something to fight for and care about, there would seem to be more of a point to existence than there is a point to oblivion.

You may argue that such a constructed purpose is illusory, but it's still the only option of the two with even an illusory purpose to it.

Of course, the second reason I held such a belief was a most egocentric one, the belief that life is not worth the pain of existence. Haw haw.

Pain don't hurt. Everyone rails at emotional and psychological "pain" as something unpleasant. But I've grown quite attached to my pain. Pain IS a part of life, but a wonderful part, full of sensation and emotional input. Those things which are sweet in life, victory over others, the continuation of that which we enjoy,.. These would have no sweetness without the memory of pain to provide contrast. Pain is a gift, a gauge by which the grey drabness of the world is dispelled and instantly replaced with vibrant colour. I would trade NONE of my victories for a lessening of the pain I myself have experienced. On the contrary, I would gladly endure more just to maintain those victories I have already won.

I care about not existing - that is my truth.Heh, you'll forgive me if I consider that nonsense. When you know truth, when you REALLY know truth, pursuing it to its ultimate zenith is compulsive, and is no effort at all. Thus since you're still alive enough to post upon this message board I must conclude that topping yourself is not in fact, your ultimate truth. And that's good. I lived through the puberty of my philosophy and have achieved peace, like so many other people. Those that don't live through similar situations are removed by the motive force of natural selection. Self-destructive tendencies are not desirable in a genetic strain.

Originally posted by Spider AL
If nothing new was received by your mind following my post, it's hardly my responsibility. ;)

But you presented it like that was the case with "the one step", but this is hardly relevant for the debate, so pay no heed.

Originally posted by Spider AL
You said: "that would be counterproductive against my strife for ceasing to be hypocritical." Though the grammar in that sentence was questionable I think I read it aright, and I'd say that any struggle to eradicate hypocrisy in others or oneself would qualify as a struggle for honesty and therefore truth.

This relates to the "higher truth" I wrote. And by eradicating hipocrisy I meant to not adhere to any fallacies, not necessarily that it would leave any truth behind.

Originally posted by Spider AL
As for the phrase "higher truth", you're the only one who's used it. I certainly did not. Truth is truth, there is nothing more true than truth, tacking the word "higher" onto it is redundant.

True, and I guess it was a poor attempt at describing all these bigger-than-life truths presented mainly by religion.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Such a militant stance is both unoriginal and pedestrian, people who hold the same opinion are ten-a-penny. I myself held it briefly when I was thirteen and angst-ridden. Granted, mine was focussed only on the eradication of homo sapiens, and therefore more to do with my immature philosophy regarding man's responsibility for his effect on the planet, but the point holds...

Be that as it may, it does nothing to invalidate them to me.

Originally posted by Spider AL
While there is no intractible "point" to existence, there is likewise no "point" to oblivion. Thus since one can instinctively create a "point" to live for, something to fight for and care about, there would seem to be more of a point to existence than there is a point to oblivion.

You may argue that such a constructed purpose is illusory, but it's still the only option of the two with even an illusory purpose to it.

I care not for a "point". Non-existent I wouldn't be there to want one.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Pain don't hurt. Everyone rails at emotional and psychological "pain" as something unpleasant. But I've grown quite attached to my pain. Pain IS a part of life, but a wonderful part, full of sensation and emotional input. Those things which are sweet in life, victory over others, the continuation of that which we enjoy,.. These would have no sweetness without the memory of pain to provide contrast. Pain is a gift, a gauge by which the grey drabness of the world is dispelled and instantly replaced with vibrant colour. I would trade NONE of my victories for a lessening of the pain I myself have experienced. On the contrary, I would gladly endure more just to maintain those victories I have already won.

Indeed, pain is there to learn from and to strengthen joy by opposition, but I dare guarantee you there have been thousands if not millions through history who have lived less privileged lifes than yours, that have suffered unbearable pains that were never even remotely outweighed by joys, suffering torture, immense losses, persecution, repression and such like. Your life seems the average variety (in its uniqueness), but I'm quite sure not all experience the same level of balance between pain and joy as you have so far.

I'm not disputing that "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger"; I'm looking ahead and thinking "stronger for what exactly?" And for the majority it seems life is quite bearable, even enjoyable, but we are not all the same.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Heh, you'll forgive me if I consider that nonsense. When you know truth, when you REALLY know truth, pursuing it to its ultimate zenith is compulsive, and is no effort at all. Thus since you're still alive enough to post upon this message board I must conclude that topping yourself is not in fact, your ultimate truth. And that's good. I lived through the puberty of my philosophy and have achieved peace, like so many other people. Those that don't live through similar situations are removed by the motive force of natural selection. Self-destructive tendencies are not desirable in a genetic strain.

As written before in this thread, no, topping myself off is not my ultimate truth; ceasing to exist is. And as written before, I do not know if topping myself off will achieve that, and furthermore if I only can effect what lies beyond death, if anything, from this side of death.

Self-destructive tendencies are naturally not desirable in a genetic strain, and I'd rather destroy the genetic strain than see it evolve. In any event, man is quite obviously capable of suicide, consciously and fully aware.

But you presented it like that was the case with "the one step",Oh, THAT. That's merely another incontrivertable truth: "Those that agree with Spider have done something right, whether they realise it or not." :p

This relates to the "higher truth" I wrote. And by eradicating hipocrisy I meant to not adhere to any fallacies, not necessarily that it would leave any truth behind.If one does not live hypocritically one must necessarily live honestly. In the absence of fallacy, truth is what remains. It's all that remains, in fact.

Be that as it may, it does nothing to invalidate them to me.The very fact that truth is distinguished from all else by its rarity should point you towards the obvious: If many silly people hold a belief, chances are that the belief too is silly, as in this case.

I care not for a "point". Non-existent I wouldn't be there to want one.So you're saying that you don't have a reason for wanting to be extinguished? Desiring something without reason is illogical, and would therefore not be a subject for debate.

I'm quite sure not all experience the same level of balance between pain and joy as you have so far.Well that's a baseless assumption. Nowhere will you find me saying that I have led a life in which pain was BALANCED by victories. Far from it, though my victories have increased in number over the course of my life, the varied pains of existence still outweigh the joys in number. Nonetheless ONE victory is worth anything... I'd take one of my victories over an obnoxious turd, and pay for it for the rest of my life with pain. Because balance is a meaningless term when applied to pain and joy. Pain provides contrast to the joys, but the joys no matter how few ALWAYS outweigh pain no matter its strength and frequency. Because, the only power pain possesses is that which you yourself give it. It is nothing more than a feeling. You feel angry, you feel hot, you feel cold, you feel afraid, you feel pain. Pain can never kill you.

I'm not disputing that "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger"; I'm looking ahead and thinking "stronger for what exactly?" Stronger so that you can fulfil your self-made purpose more effectively, whatever that might be. That's why pain is a gift.

As written before in this thread, no, topping myself off is not my ultimate truth; ceasing to exist is. And as written before, I do not know if topping myself off will achieve that, and furthermore if I only can effect what lies beyond death, if anything, from this side of death.Oh, forgive me, I mistook you for an atheist.

I take it you have lingering doubts over what lies beyond the veil then? I suffer no such doubts.

It's not that I know what's beyond one way or another, it's that since I am true to my own instinctive drives, I simply don't care. In THIS life, I am true to myself and my own sense of honour. If there is an afterlife, I'm sure I'll get one of the good seats in the house. If I don't get a good seat, it'll be because the supreme being is an ass by the reckoning of my moral compass. In which case, I wouldn't want to be around him anway.

If there is no afterlife, at least I've been good to myself during this life.

But an afterlife? It's a little far fetched as concepts go to be honest. Reincarnation? Karma? Bit off the beaten track.

Self-destructive tendencies are naturally not desirable in a genetic strain, and I'd rather destroy the genetic strain than see it evolve.Sorry, are you talking about just your own, or everyone else's, or everyTHING else's?

Originally posted by Spider AL
If one does not live hypocritically one must necessarily live honestly. In the absence of fallacy, truth is what remains. It's all that remains, in fact.

I said I strive to rid myself of hipocricy, meaning to not adhere to any "higher truth" with which I mean dogmatic truth. I'll attempt to word myself more carefully henceforth.

Originally posted by Spider AL
The very fact that truth is distinguished from all else by its rarity should point you towards the obvious: If many silly people hold a belief, chances are that the belief too is silly, as in this case.

You're the one branding them as silly, not I. I'll retarget the argument and by the same rationale claim that since many fearful people hold dogmatic beliefs, chances are that the beliefs too are based on fear, e.g. the religious.

Originally posted by Spider AL
So you're saying that you don't have a reason for wanting to be extinguished? Desiring something without reason is illogical, and would therefore not be a subject for debate.

No, I'm saying that I see and want no point for existence and that points are irrelevant when one does not exist.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Well that's a baseless assumption. Nowhere will you find me saying that I have led a life in which pain was BALANCED by victories.

I didn't say your pain and joy were balanced, I spoke of the level of balance, i.e. that your joys more or less makes your pains worthwhile, and I surmise more is the case with you.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Nonetheless ONE victory is worth anything... I'd take one of my victories over an obnoxious turd, and pay for it for the rest of my life with pain. Because balance is a meaningless term when applied to pain and joy. Pain provides contrast to the joys, but the joys no matter how few ALWAYS outweigh pain no matter its strength and frequency. Because, the only power pain possesses is that which you yourself give it. It is nothing more than a feeling. You feel angry, you feel hot, you feel cold, you feel afraid, you feel pain. Pain can never kill you.


A hollow boast which speaks volumes of your acquaintance with pain. Would you for example spend the rest of your life in a dank prison cell with daily torture sessions after having witnessed the brutal rape and agonizing murder of all your family, in exchange for one victory over an obnoxious turd?

Originally posted by Spider AL
Stronger so that you can fulfil your self-made purpose more effectively, whatever that might be. That's why pain is a gift.

And when your purpose through pain is non-existence? How much more pain should one care to suffer when there is no further point?

Originally posted by Spider AL
I take it you have lingering doubts over what lies beyond the veil then?

Not so much as to what lies beyond, but if anything. And to tell myself that, rationally, nothing lies beyond, and therefor it matters not how I life and die, the paradoxical question presents itself: "Care to risk your eternal soul on that?"

It is an irrational fear no doubt, but then again, if there is something beyond, that would be irrational, too.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Sorry, are you talking about just your own, or everyone else's, or everyTHING else's?

My own and everyone/-thing else's.

You're the one branding them as silly, not I. I'll retarget the argument and by the same rationale claim that since many fearful people hold dogmatic beliefs, chances are that the beliefs too are based on fear, e.g. the religious.You SHOULD brand them so. I have no idea of your age, but no doubt you are aware that your opinion is held in the main, by depressed adolescents with inflated egos. The desire not only for the loss of self and awareness but also for everything else's loss of self and awareness too, tends to be the hallmark of someone who is unreasonably angry at the world at large. If nothing matters, why should one care what happens to anything else in the world? A true seeker of oblivion would desire only the utter destruction of the self.

As for religion, you and I are in perfect agreement, perhaps for different reasons. I find religion, a means of dishonourable control based on instilling fear into a gullible populous, as distasteful as anything on this Earth.

No, I'm saying that I see and want no point for existence and that points are irrelevant when one does not exist.Yes, you've said this before, yet it does not provide me with the information I seek, which is this: What point do you see in non-existence? If there is neither point in existence nor point in oblivion, it behooves a man to err on the side of logic and make the best of existence, even if such a state is based entirely upon self-delusion.

I didn't say your pain and joy were balancedThat's true...

I spoke of the level of balance, i.e. that your joys more or less makes your pains worthwhile, and I surmise more is the case with you.But you have now- more or less, mostly more. ;) And as I said, your assumptions are baseless. Would you like an itemised list of all the occasions on which I've felt pain? The injuries of my body and mind, both perceived and incontrivertably real? The injustice I personally have witnessed and the accounts of injustices I've merely been privy to second hand? Would you like a list of what I consider to be my victories? Obviously not, nor could I provide a complete list, nor could you provide a complete list of yours. Suffice it to say that for the majority of my lifetime I have felt variously depressed, angry, ineffectual, suicidal, nihilistic, inadequate and sorrowful. Felt. Only felt. All we ever do is feel. Feelings are given too much power in this day and age, and I had to pass through adolescence and a portion of my twenties before I was mature enough to realise it.

I still feel the same old pains I always did. But god, I love to win, and so I look at what I could have changed in myself to make it easier to attain my goals, and force my will into existence... and I change it. And since pain is perception-based, I simply don't allow it to interfere in a negative way with that which I enjoy. On the contrary, I laugh at those who have caused me pain, every time I get the best of any situation. You will find many people who have had worse lives than myself, and worse lives than yourself, who exhibit greater, more positive traits than mine. What separates them from those who go under? What separates them from me, and me from you? I do not presume to know or say. But that's what this debate is about, isn't it. Let us examine the problem like rational men and arrive at a solution.

A hollow boast which speaks volumes of your acquaintance with pain.There you go, assuming again. I shall hypothesize: Perhaps you assume that nobody with my attitude could POSSIBLY have felt the pain that you feel, or others have felt.

Heh. :)

Why don't you tell me exactly what it is that you assume? Don't beat around the bush.

Would you for example spend the rest of your life in a dank prison cell with daily torture sessions after having witnessed the brutal rape and agonizing murder of all your family, in exchange for one victory over an obnoxious turd?Hmm. Well I'm quite the fanatic, so it would depend on who the turd in question was. People give up life, friends, defenceless creatures, honour and family every day for less. Those are the turds that might be worth it incidentally.

And when your purpose through pain is non-existence? How much more pain should one care to suffer when there is no further point?You've already proven to my satisfaction-through your continued manipulation of your keyboard- that you're corporeal enough so that I can rule out the possibility that your true purpose is oblivion. If I were you I'd re-evaluate my purpose in life.

Not so much as to what lies beyond, but if anything. And to tell myself that, rationally, nothing lies beyond, and therefor it matters not how I life and die, the paradoxical question presents itself: "Care to risk your eternal soul on that?"

It is an irrational fear no doubt, but then again, if there is something beyond, that would be irrational, too.Ah, that is most irksome, is it not? You rail against the evils of dogma, and yet you're still slavish at its whim.

As I've said before, one must make up one's mind, in the world. One cannot adequately evaluate the merits of existence vs. non-existence if one scrap of your being genuinely believes that there is an all powerful beardy man in the sky who will spank one if one tops oneself.

Originally posted by Spider AL
You SHOULD brand them so. I have no idea of your age, but no doubt you are aware that your opinion is held in the main, by depressed adolescents with inflated egos. The desire not only for the loss of self and awareness but also for everything else's loss of self and awareness too, tends to be the hallmark of someone who is unreasonably angry at the world at large. If nothing matters, why should one care what happens to anything else in the world? A true seeker of oblivion would desire only the utter destruction of the self.

Just trust that I'm well over the age for this philosophy to be merely a pubertal rage against the world.

A true compassionate seeker of oblivion would care that others are destroyed as well as himself.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Yes, you've said this before, yet it does not provide me with the information I seek, which is this: What point do you see in non-existence? If there is neither point in existence nor point in oblivion, it behooves a man to err on the side of logic and make the best of existence, even if such a state is based entirely upon self-delusion.

The point of ceasing to exist is the acknowledgement of the pointlessness of struggling through existence. True, one might as well exist as not and we're all going to die anyway, but it still comes back to the unproductive pain, i.e. the various pains that some people are exposed to from which they yield no positive characterbuilding effect. It's the realization that life is akin to Sisyphus and his plight, where only an irrational pride of his pointless work can make it seem worthwhile.

Originally posted by Spider AL
... You will find many people who have had worse lives than myself, and worse lives than yourself, who exhibit greater, more positive traits than mine. What separates them from those who go under? What separates them from me, and me from you? I do not presume to know or say. But that's what this debate is about, isn't it. Let us examine the problem like rational men and arrive at a solution.

Indeed, let's. We see them often on the news, the starvated, the persecuted, the oppressed; people who have lost family and homes, even their country to malicious greedy forces; people subjected to torture and unjust imprisonment, etc., etc.. Now, some of them do break under the physical and emotional ordeals, ending up catatonic or insane or what have you. But those we are to examine are those that do come out ahead, with scars on their bodies and minds, yet collected and determined, mayhaps even proud. Of those I can only say that they are conditioned with some powerful delusions around which they can keep their person(ality) firm and strong, be it religion or pride or defiance or love or combinations of these, or something else. These delusions are what seperates them from me, for I do not possess such firm belief in any religion or ethical concept.

Originally posted by Spider AL
There you go, assuming again. I shall hypothesize: Perhaps you assume that nobody with my attitude could POSSIBLY have felt the pain that you feel, or others have felt.

Heh.

Why don't you tell me exactly what it is that you assume? Don't beat around the bush.

I assume that despite whatever pains you have experienced through our life, you have in your personality traits that allow you to overcome them satisfactorily enough for you to hold your oppinion on pain vs life. I do not assume that my pains are greater than yours, perception aside, but I do assume that I do not possess your values regarding existence, nor can I ever fully do so.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Hmm. Well I'm quite the fanatic, so it would depend on who the turd in question was. People give up life, friends, defenceless creatures, honour and family every day for less. Those are the turds that might be worth it incidentally.

In that case I can only recommend that you try it and get back to me in 1 month after the start for an re-evaluation of that oppinion. Experience is after all the best tutor.

Originally posted by Spider AL
You've already proven to my satisfaction-through your continued manipulation of your keyboard- that you're corporeal enough so that I can rule out the possibility that your true purpose is oblivion. If I were you I'd re-evaluate my purpose in life.

Twice before in this thread I have explained why I'm still corporeal.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Ah, that is most irksome, is it not? You rail against the evils of dogma, and yet you're still slavish at its whim.

As I've said before, one must make up one's mind, in the world. One cannot adequately evaluate the merits of existence vs. non-existence if one scrap of your being genuinely believes that there is an all powerful beardy man in the sky who will spank one if one tops oneself.

If there indeed is something after death then I'd value non-existence even higher; one thing is enduring a life time, eternity is quite another.

Just trust that I'm well over the age for this philosophy to be merely a pubertal rage against the world.Even if I were to believe out of hand that you were over twenty, I've met my share of arrested adolescents in the past, and no doubt I will again in the future. However, that was hardly the point of the paragraph which you quoted. The point of that paragraph was merely to state the fact that your opinion is mostly held by angsty gothy teenagers. I doubt you would dispute that.

A true compassionate seeker of oblivion would care that others are destroyed as well as himself.Well there's no logic to that. You've already agreed that a certain number of people in the world have it within themselves to use the life-pain you dislike so much to better purpose than you use yours. It follows therefore that it would hardly be "compassionate" to prematurely end their fun by blotting them out of existence, now, would it? Hmm?

The point of ceasing to exist is the acknowledgement of the pointlessness of struggling through existence. True, one might as well exist as notWell there you go. As I said before, one might as well exist as not, and one should logically err on the side of existence, because it is the only one of the two options with even an illusory point to it.

and we're all going to die anyway, but it still comes back to the unproductive pain, i.e. the various pains that some people are exposed to from which they yield no positive characterbuilding effect.Frankly that's due to their state of mind. Many people use great pain to positive effect, as we've agreed before. Are you merely saying now that you only wish to extinguish those who can't TAKE the pain? Or do you still wish to obliterate those that derive enjoyment from life as well? :)

It's the realization that life is akin to Sisyphus and his plight, where only an irrational pride of his pointless work can make it seem worthwhile.Seeming worthwhile is a quality that non-existence is not well known for. Once again, you must agree that existence holds the monopoly on "purpose."

Of those I can only say that they are conditioned with some powerful delusions around which they can keep their person(ality) firm and strong, be it religion or pride or defiance or love or combinations of these, or something else. These delusions are what seperates them from me, for I do not possess such firm belief in any religion or ethical concept.As far as I can see, you only possess enough belief to stop you from being decisive, but not enough to provide you with a sense of purpose, illusory or otherwise. Better to make up your mind, and pick one thing to pursue in life. Anything will do.

In that case I can only recommend that you try it and get back to me in 1 month after the start for an re-evaluation of that oppinion. Experience is after all the best tutor.Lol. If you provide me with an opportunity for victory over a turd of my choosing, then I'll consider what's worth it and what isn't. :D

Twice before in this thread I have explained why I'm still corporeal.And twice it simply hasn't washed.

If there indeed is something after death then I'd value non-existence even higher; one thing is enduring a life time, eternity is quite another.Well this is one instance in which I feel secure and non-insulting when I say you simply don't know WHAT you're talking about regarding this issue.

All you know and dislike about existence is based upon your experience of THIS WORLD. If there's another plane beyond this one, you'd be an illogical fool to wish yourself into nothingness before even trying it on for size.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Even if I were to believe out of hand that you were over twenty, I've met my share of arrested adolescents in the past, and no doubt I will again in the future. However, that was hardly the point of the paragraph which you quoted. The point of that paragraph was merely to state the fact that your opinion is mostly held by angsty gothy teenagers. I doubt you would dispute that.

The point being that they hold these beliefs for reasons more emotional than rational. Where they develop them out of the emotional turbulence I think we all can recall from puberty, I have contemplated these matters more rationally for approximately 14 years, give or take.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Well there's no logic to that. You've already agreed that a certain number of people in the world have it within themselves to use the life-pain you dislike so much to better purpose than you use yours. It follows therefore that it would hardly be "compassionate" to prematurely end their fun by blotting them out of existence, now, would it? Hmm?

The point here being to spare others, including future individuals, from a similar fate as mine, or worse. As for those who can bear life, they won't even be around to care, so they'll have lost nothing.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Well there you go. As I said before, one might as well exist as not, and one should logically err on the side of existence, because it is the only one of the two options with even an illusory point to it.

And where you hold an illusory point as worth more than not seeing/having one, I do not.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Frankly that's due to their state of mind. Many people use great pain to positive effect, as we've agreed before. Are you merely saying now that you only wish to extinguish those who can't TAKE the pain? Or do you still wish to obliterate those that derive enjoyment from life as well?

Yes, to avoid future incidents such as mine, or worse, for the others will, as mentioned previously, won't be around to feel sorry for it.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Seeming worthwhile is a quality that non-existence is not well known for. Once again, you must agree that existence holds the monopoly on "purpose."

And again, you hold purpose in value, I don't.

Originally posted by Spider AL
As far as I can see, you only possess enough belief to stop you from being decisive, but not enough to provide you with a sense of purpose, illusory or otherwise. Better to make up your mind, and pick one thing to pursue in life. Anything will do.

Yet again, I do not see a thing to pursue in life as better.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Lol. If you provide me with an opportunity for victory over a turd of my choosing, then I'll consider what's worth it and what isn't.

You're dodging. Describe a turd that would be worth it to you.

Originally posted by Spider AL
And twice it simply hasn't washed.

Mayhaps not with you; be that as it may.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Well this is one instance in which I feel secure and non-insulting when I say you simply don't know WHAT you're talking about regarding this issue.

All you know and dislike about existence is based upon your experience of THIS WORLD. If there's another plane beyond this one, you'd be an illogical fool to wish yourself into nothingness before even trying it on for size.

With regards to the human mind, I don't see how eternity in any state, torment or bliss, can bring either of two things; insanity or enlightenment. In any event I'd rather cease to exist right now.

The point being that they hold these beliefs for reasons more emotional than rational. Where they develop them out of the emotional turbulence I think we all can recall from puberty, I have contemplated these matters more rationally for approximately 14 years, give or take.If you say so, it's irrelevant anyway. Gaping errors in logic and reasoning have been known to persist over much longer periods of time. ;)

The point here being to spare others, including future individuals, from a similar fate as mine, or worse.I thought you considered all points illusory and therefore worthless?

Heh, regardless, the only terrible fate you and others of your ilk suffer from, is immature philosophy. Use your boundless pain for something constructive! Others have, as you well know and have admitted in this very thread. Your only excuse for not doing so so far has been "I can't." Not very convincing, without knowing exactly what you've tried.

As for those who can bear life, they won't even be around to care, so they'll have lost nothing.Sorry, but that's idiotic. They'll have lost something they enjoy, life. Not knowing that you have lost something does not alter the fact that you have lost it. More, you desire to take it upon yourself to TAKE AWAY something that a portion of living creatures enjoy. How very arrogant... Still fitting in with the angsty adolescent profile, this belief of yours.

As you know, I don't suffer from the malady you do, therefore I'd take it in extremely ill-humour if you tried to obliterate ME. :rolleyes: I certainly wouldn't call your desire particularly "compassionate" under these circumstances.

And where you hold an illusory point as worth more than not seeing/having one, I do not.If it's a choice between the dream of life and the nothingness of oblivion, of course the dream has more to recommend it to one. You can shape life however you wish. You can't shape nothingness. Life is therefore an opportunity for enjoyment, which is pleasant.

You're dodging. Describe a turd that would be worth it to you.Oh, anyone who had the temerity to decide to exert their will upon others in a massively negative way, any perpetrator of genocide or torture for personal gain... I find the thought of a victory over such a one amusing. Now, can you offer me such a victory, over such a turd? Obviously not. When you can offer me a specific target, I shall offer you the specific worth of their loss- to me- in pain. So was I dodging? Obviously not. Back to work you go. :D

Yet again, I do not see a thing to pursue in life as better.That's just because you refuse to see it. Options are the key. Existence offers options for whatever you wish. Whatever you wish. Non-existence, offers none. Furthermore, as a wannabe atheist you should enjoy the illusion of life while you can, because nothingness will come soon enough.

With regards to the human mind, I don't see how eternity in any state, torment or bliss, can bring either of two things; insanity or enlightenment. In any event I'd rather cease to exist right now.Heheheh. You say you desire oblivion because you can't stand the pain of existence, (this being your ONLY reason) and yet you claim to not desire a blissful afterlife devoid of pain? Nonsensical.

Once again, this rings extremely hollow... Especially your continued proclamation of your desire to cease existing, which still fails to wash. On the one hand you desire oblivion because you don't believe in any blissful afterlife, but on the other you're not topping yourself because you don't want your immortal soul to be spanked by "teH GoD"? Make your darned mind up. It may be that your lack of theosophic certainty is what's leading to your obvious confusion.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Gaping errors in logic and reasoning have been known to persist over much longer periods of time. ;)

Evidently.

Originally posted by Spider AL
I thought you considered all points illusory and therefore worthless?

It was the point of the argument.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Heh, regardless, the only terrible fate you and others of your ilk suffer from, is immature philosophy. Use your boundless pain for something constructive! Others have, as you well know and have admitted in this very thread. Your only excuse for not doing so so far has been "I can't." Not very convincing, without knowing exactly what you've tried.

Then why don't I?

Originally posted by Spider AL
Sorry, but that's idiotic. They'll have lost something they enjoy, life. Not knowing that you have lost something does not alter the fact that you have lost it. More, you desire to take it upon yourself to TAKE AWAY something that a portion of living creatures enjoy. How very arrogant... Still fitting in with the angsty adolescent profile, this belief of yours.

As you know, I don't suffer from the malady you do, therefore I'd take it in extremely ill-humour if you tried to obliterate ME. I certainly wouldn't call your desire particularly "compassionate" under these circumstances.

They will have lost nothing in the sense that they do not exist to experience that loss; same goes for your extreme ill-humour were you obliterated.

Originally posted by Spider AL
You can shape life however you wish.

Pure nonsense; you cannot avoid outside influence.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Life is therefore an opportunity for enjoyment, which is pleasant.

And an opening for pain, an opening that can never be blocked with certainty, because of aforementioned outside influence.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Oh, anyone who had the temerity to decide to exert their will upon others in a massively negative way, any perpetrator of genocide or torture for personal gain... I find the thought of a victory over such a one amusing. Now, can you offer me such a victory, over such a turd? Obviously not. When you can offer me a specific target, I shall offer you the specific worth of their loss- to me- in pain. So was I dodging? Obviously not. Back to work you go.

Still dodging and now denying it. I said: "Describe a turd that would be worth it to you", simply that, nothing more.

Originally posted by Spider AL
That's just because you refuse to see it. Options are the key. Existence offers options for whatever you wish. Whatever you wish. Non-existence, offers none.

In non-existence I'd want for none.

Originally posted by Spider AL
..., because nothingness will come soon enough.

A guarantee for which I have no certainty.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Heheheh. You say you desire oblivion because you can't stand the pain of existence, (this being your ONLY reason) and yet you claim to not desire a blissful afterlife devoid of pain? Nonsensical.


Not to me.

Originally posted by Spider AL
On the one hand you desire oblivion because you don't believe in any blissful afterlife, ...

Wrong.

Originally posted by Spider AL
but on the other you're not topping yourself because you don't want your immortal soul to be spanked by "teH GoD"?

One of the reasons described, yes, with your image of a spanking god being one conceivable scenario for a post-death eventuality.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Make your darned mind up. It may be that your lack of theosophic certainty is what's leading to your obvious confusion.

This confusion is perceived only by you of the two of us.

It was the point of the argument.Actually the point of my argument was to highlight the fact that for someone who views the realm of existence as totally inherently pointless, substanceless and without reality, you're remarkably interested in affecting it not only for yourself but for everyone else.

Then why don't I?Heh. I'd only be hypothesising if I were to say... That your brand of extreme nihilism is an easy balm for a soul that either hasn't enough self-confidence to believe that it can shape the world around it to something that pleases it... or a soul that has too much ego to allow itself to take any responsibility for doing so.

I'd be hypothesising if I cited attention-seeking, lassitude or simple misguidedness.

I don't like to hypothesise though. Not at all. :p

They will have lost nothing in the sense that they do not exist to experience that loss; same goes for your extreme ill-humour were you obliterated.As stated before, it's a plain fact that one has lost something whether or not one realises the fact. What you're suggesting is tantamount to saying that taking someone's icecream and then killing them so they aren't there to feel the pain of icecream-loss absolves one from all responsibility for the initial theft. In other words, what you're saying is utter drivel.

Pure nonsense; you cannot avoid outside influence.Haha! For someone who ascribes no value to joy, you certainly ascribe a lot of value to pain. My dear Jubatus, you really do suffer from a serious delusion... Of course life can be nothing but enjoyment. Some are born into it, some work for it. There are many who struggle through years of pain, to build up a business or create a family or dynasty, and then sit back and do nothing but enjoy themselves until they die of old age! These people force their ideas into being in the physical world. They have the strength of character to ignore the pain, USE the pain, to fuel their positive impact on their own lives.

These people didn't have to avoid outside influences to obtain the lives they wanted, on the contrary, they fought through adverse conditions, and USED adverse conditions to their advantage!

And an opening for pain, an opening that can never be blocked with certainty, because of aforementioned outside influence.Lol, once again you assign great weight to pain and none to joy. They are in fact both insubstantial, meaning that one can enjoy the joy and fight through the pain. And you forget that your demonic outside influences can also supply fun. And some of them can also be anticipated and circumvented if one is of sufficient intelligence.

Still dodging and now denying it. I said: "Describe a turd that would be worth it to you", simply that, nothing more.Don't descend into utter foolishness, I described such a turd, and commented that without an individual case and the reality to motivate me I could not adequately gauge the victory's worth. Would Himmler be worth my right hand? Would Hitler be worth both? Would Stalin be worth my legs? Would any two of the above be worth my life? Sure. But I don't really know any comparable turds living today. Umm... I think I might gain victory over George Lucas at the price of my spleen and one of my kidneys. How much clearer do you want it to be? Perhaps you're the one dodging the issue. Back to work.

In non-existence I'd want for none.And once again, lack of awareness does not magically dissipate the presence of loss.

Not to me.That was your response to this:

"You say you desire oblivion because you can't stand the pain of existence, (this being your ONLY reason) and yet you claim to not desire a blissful afterlife devoid of pain? Nonsensical."

And your response declares that your entire argument is based not upon logic, but upon emotion. In which case, any case you put forward for debate is negated instantly.

You say pain makes existence undesirable. But you also state that existence devoid of pain is also undesirable. Nonsense! If you believe the former, you cannot logically believe the latter.

One of the reasons described, yes, with your image of a spanking god being one conceivable scenario for a post-death eventuality.Still trying to hedge your bets vis-a-vis the possibility of jehovaspankage post-death, eh. So basically what you're saying is that because you lack the atheistic conviction necessary to top yourself for fear of jehovaspankage, you will merely sit around and wait for natural death, instead of blowing up the planet. :eek:

This confusion is perceived only by you of the two of us.I don't doubt it. Your confusion naturally clouds your perception. :D

Originally posted by Spider AL
Actually the point of my argument was to highlight the fact that for someone who views the realm of existence as totally inherently pointless, substanceless and without reality, you're remarkably interested in affecting it not only for yourself but for everyone else.

Not quite viewing existence as such, merely observing that I do not see any point and cannot know with certainty any reality (other than the existence of I). Real or not, there is no real loss in affecting it.

Originally posted by Spider AL
... I don't like to hypothesise though. Not at all.

Therefor, since you don't know the why of my situation, then don't presume to give me the how of proceeding.

Originally posted by Spider AL
As stated before, it's a plain fact that one has lost something whether or not one realises the fact. What you're suggesting is tantamount to saying that taking someone's icecream and then killing them so they aren't there to feel the pain of icecream-loss absolves one from all responsibility for the initial theft. In other words, what you're saying is utter drivel.

Irrelevant for the non-existent.

Originally posted by Spider AL
... These people didn't have to avoid outside influences to obtain the lives they wanted, on the contrary, they fought through adverse conditions, and USED adverse conditions to their advantage!

Yes, some lifes can be shaped into the enjoyable, but due to outside influence, some are not.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Lol, once again you assign great weight to pain and none to joy. They are in fact both insubstantial, meaning that one can enjoy the joy and fight through the pain. And you forget that your demonic outside influences can also supply fun. And some of them can also be anticipated and circumvented if one is of sufficient intelligence.

Again, the keyword is can, for evidently this is not always the case.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Don't descend into utter foolishness, I described such a turd, and commented that without an individual case and the reality to motivate me I could not adequately gauge the victory's worth. Would Himmler be worth my right hand? Would Hitler be worth both? Would Stalin be worth my legs? Would any two of the above be worth my life? Sure. But I don't really know any comparable turds living today. Umm... I think I might gain victory over George Lucas at the price of my spleen and one of my kidneys. How much clearer do you want it to be? Perhaps you're the one dodging the issue. Back to work.

Well, did say experience would be the greatest tutor, and naturally you can claim yourself capable of great sacrifices for the victory over whichever turd, when all you have to do is type it in with a keyboard. And you're quite right, I can't put you in the described situation this originated from (the dank prison, torture, rape and murder of your family), and you have indirectly answered to my satisfaction.

Originally posted by Spider AL
And once again, lack of awareness does not magically dissipate the presence of loss.

Present me with a non-existent person who cares about loss.

Originally posted by Spider AL
And your response declares that your entire argument is based not upon logic, but upon emotion. In which case, any case you put forward for debate is negated instantly.

Born from emotion, based on logic. That you don't see it speaks only of your extreme want not to.

Originally posted by Spider AL
You say pain makes existence undesirable. But you also state that existence devoid of pain is also undesirable. Nonsense! If you believe the former, you cannot logically believe the latter.

When distinguishing between bearable, characterbuilding pain and disruptive pain, I can.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Still trying to hedge your bets vis-a-vis the possibility of jehovaspankage post-death, eh. So basically what you're saying is that because you lack the atheistic conviction necessary to top yourself for fear of jehovaspankage, you will merely sit around and wait for natural death, instead of blowing up the planet.


If I could blow up the planet, I would. As for waiting for natural death instead of topping off myself out of fear for conscious eternity, that is one of the reasons for my continued life, as we have been over quite a few times now.

Originally posted by Spider AL
I don't doubt it. Your confusion naturally clouds your perception.

Simply reversed to the truer: Your delusions demand I'm confused.

Not quite viewing existence as such, merely observing that I do not see any point and cannot know with certainty any reality (other than the existence of I). Real or not, there is no real loss in affecting it.Ha! There is a real loss in losing existence. One who loses existence has lost existence. They have lost the option of that state of being. Just because you have not the conviction to enjoy life, doesn't mean others don't. You presume much in wishing to cause the loss of existence for all others everywhere. If I didn't know better, I'd accuse you of adolescent arrogance.

Therefor, since you don't know the why of my situation, then don't presume to give me the how of proceeding.I'm not remotely interested in the why of your situation, since as agreed earlier, others have been in worse, more painful situations than yours, and have used that experience to further their positive impact upon their own lives. You have no excuse for not doing so.

Irrelevant for the non-existent.Dodging again... Loss is loss, perception of loss is irrelevant. By taking enjoyment from someone you have done them a disservice no matter whether they realise it or not, and therefore your continued claims of compassion are negated and proven to be a hollow disguise for your self-aggrandising malignance. QED.

Yes, some lifes can be shaped into the enjoyable, but due to outside influence, some are not.That's because of the mind of the person living the life, not the quantity or quality of outside influence. As agreed before. You're becoming redundant...

Again, the keyword is can, for evidently this is not always the case.Hrmph, if something can be done it can be done. Enough said. What one man can do another can do. Unless they lack the necessary desire. Unless it's EASIER for them to do nothing. ;)

Well, did say experience would be the greatest tutor, and naturally you can claim yourself capable of great sacrifices for the victory over whichever turd, when all you have to do is type it in with a keyboard.I wondered when you'd get around to indirectly calling me a liar. Not exactly the most mature form of debating, eh. :rolleyes: I won't stoop to that level though...

Present me with a non-existent person who cares about loss.Present me with a non-existent person whose state of non-existance has ANY bearing on whether they've lost something or not. Loss is loss, awareness of it is irrelevant. If you drop a one-dollar bill, you've lost it, whether you ever notice the loss or not. Your argument is fatally flawed.

Born from emotion, based on logic. That you don't see it speaks only of your extreme want not to.I have already proven that your argument is not logical.

You value non-existence over existence ONLY because of the pain of existence, and have confirmed that in this thread more than once. And yet, you also claim to dislike the idea of an existence without pain, such as a blissful afterlife, which should logically make the two options at the very least equal in your eyes. Therefore your arguments are not based on logic.

They would appear to stem from over-emotional angst, and it would appear that they are entirely based upon it as well.

When distinguishing between bearable, characterbuilding pain and disruptive pain, I can.Once again your logic fails you. Pain is your reason for wishing existence away. An afterlife without pain would therefore negate your reason for wishing existence away. It's that simple. You cannot fail to comprehend, no matter how hard you try.

If I could blow up the planet, I would. As for waiting for natural death instead of topping off myself out of fear for conscious eternity, that is one of the reasons for my continued life, as we have been over quite a few times now.Just as a point of interest, do you really think that a supreme being/god would fail to take into account your desire to blow up the world when judging whether to spank you or not? If you believe in such a being, do you really think that they would fail to notice the fact that you're trying to slip through a legal loophole, and that the only reason you didn't try to kill everything on the planet including yourself was that you were afraid of jehovaspankage? I think he'd spank you.

But that aside, once again your claims do not ring true. You started this thread with a lot of atheistic anti-dogmatic ranting, and you've ended it by admitting that your actions are ruled by the same. It's either a contrived method of aiding you in a debate, or it's true, and therefore pitiful.

Simply reversed to the truer: Your delusions demand I'm confused.If you truly believe I have any illusions regarding you, you must REALLY be confused. :D

Originally posted by Spider AL
There is a real loss in losing existence. One who loses existence has lost existence. They have lost the option of that state of being.

"They" are no longer existing to not have that option.

Originally posted by Spider AL
I'm not remotely interested in the why of your situation, since as agreed earlier, others have been in worse, more painful situations than yours, and have used that experience to further their positive impact upon their own lives. You have no excuse for not doing so.

I need no excuse. And since you unsurprisingly are disinterested in the why of my situation, you cannot know what it is about my situation that disables me from doing like those that used that experience to further their "positive" impact upon their lives.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Dodging again... Loss is loss, perception of loss is irrelevant. By taking enjoyment from someone you have done them a disservice no matter whether they realise it or not, and therefore your continued claims of compassion are negated and proven to be a hollow disguise for your self-aggrandising malignance. QED.

Again you fail to see non-existence.

Originally posted by Spider AL
That's because of the mind of the person living the life, not the quantity or quality of outside influence. As agreed before. You're becoming redundant...

You have to look further and see what it is that made the mind of that person, that "it" being part of the outside influence.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Hrmph, if something can be done it can be done. Enough said. What one man can do another can do. Unless they lack the necessary desire. Unless it's EASIER for them to do nothing.


Evidently not enough said, for there are things that one man can do that another doesn't - "can" is not enough.

Originally posted by Spider AL
I wondered when you'd get around to indirectly calling me a liar. Not exactly the most mature form of debating, eh. I won't stoop to that level though...

Dodging yet again.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Present me with a non-existent person whose state of non-existance has ANY bearing on whether they've lost something or not. Loss is loss, awareness of it is irrelevant. If you drop a one-dollar bill, you've lost it, whether you ever notice the loss or not. Your argument is fatally flawed.

If I cease to exist I'm not there to care or not care about the lost one-dollar bill.

Originally posted by Spider AL
I have already proven that your argument is not logical.

You value non-existence over existence ONLY because of the pain of existence, and have confirmed that in this thread more than once. And yet, you also claim to dislike the idea of an existence without pain, such as a blissful afterlife, which should logically make the two options at the very least equal in your eyes. Therefore your arguments are not based on logic.

They would appear to stem from over-emotional angst, and it would appear that they are entirely based upon it as well.


I possess no illusion of bliss capable of lasting through eternity, as I don't see the human mind capable of eternal bliss; we're simply not built that way, as you yourself has pointed out.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Once again your logic fails you. Pain is your reason for wishing existence away. An afterlife without pain would therefore negate your reason for wishing existence away. It's that simple. You cannot fail to comprehend, no matter how hard you try.

Read above.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Just as a point of interest, do you really think that a supreme being/god would fail to take into account your desire to blow up the world when judging whether to spank you or not? If you believe in such a being, do you really think that they would fail to notice the fact that you're trying to slip through a legal loophole, and that the only reason you didn't try to kill everything on the planet including yourself was that you were afraid of jehovaspankage? I think he'd spank you.

Then so be it, but at least mankind would be producing no more souls for Heaven and Hell to harvest, and no new people would be born to life. If there is some Jehova-entity (sticking with the picture you work with) and some Heaven/Hell organisation, then living my life out without destroying the planet would still leave me going to Hell, for I can never love this Jehova. So "Him" being there or not makes no difference for blowing it up.

Originally posted by Spider AL
But that aside, once again your claims do not ring true. You started this thread with a lot of atheistic anti-dogmatic ranting, and you've ended it by admitting that your actions are ruled by the same. It's either a contrived method of aiding you in a debate, or it's true, and therefore pitiful.

Aye, it is indeed pitiful.

Originally posted by Spider AL
If you truly believe I have any illusions regarding you, you must REALLY be confused.

No, I do actually believe that you are so deluded that you're convinced you're not deluded, and therefor convinced of my confusion.

"They" are no longer existing to not have that option.As explained before, doesn't mean they haven't lost it. You don't have an answer to that, apparently.

I need no excuse. And since you unsurprisingly are disinterested in the why of my situation, you cannot know what it is about my situation that disables me from doing like those that used that experience to further their "positive" impact upon their lives.Since your desires include robbing everything of the option of existence, the metaphorical ice-cream, yes you DO need an excuse at the very LEAST. A reason would be better though.

As for your continued claims of not being able to use your crippling life-pain for any good purpose... Rubbish. Nothing's stopping you, nothing can. All you need is a mind and a will, and you have both, whether you choose to use them or not.

Again you fail to see non-existence.Again you fail to see that that's irrelevant to the point I was making.

You have to look further and see what it is that made the mind of that person, that "it" being part of the outside influence.Yuck, how oppressively Freudian. He was a dirty-minded quack, you know. Nothing MAKES a man do anything but himself and his choices.

Evidently not enough said, for there are things that one man can do that another doesn't - "can" is not enough.Of course "can" is enough, because it implies CHOICE. You can choose to use pain for a positive purpose. That you either choose not to or have successfully deluded yourself into thinking that you can't, is all down to you.

Dodging yet again.If you're trying to annoy me it won't work. I've been annoyed by professionals.

If I cease to exist I'm not there to care or not care about the lost one-dollar bill.Still lost it though, haven't you.

I possess no illusion of bliss capable of lasting through eternity, as I don't see the human mind capable of eternal bliss; we're simply not built that way, as you yourself has pointed out.Don't be pedestrian, an afterlife by definition frees you from any physical restrictions placed upon your mortal shell "in life". Not that I believe in an afterlife at all, but hey.

PS: I don't recall saying anything specifically about the human mind being capable of eternal bliss... Or not capable.

Then so be it, but at least mankind would be producing no more souls for Heaven and Hell to harvest, and no new people would be born to life. If there is some Jehova-entity (sticking with the picture you work with) and some Heaven/Hell organisation, then living my life out without destroying the planet would still leave me going to Hell, for I can never love this Jehova. So "Him" being there or not makes no difference for blowing it up.LOL! Getting confused again eh. If you think you're going to hell anyway, there's nothing stopping you from fulfilling your wishes at least in part, negating a HUGE portion of your argument. So why are you still here? Perhaps because you're arguing a lost point for the sake of hearing your keyboard rattle. Do enlighten us.

Aye, it is indeed pitiful.So you think it's true? That surely would be an unpleasant dilemma. Use it to some positive purpose! :D

No, I do actually believe that you are so deluded that you're convinced you're not deluded, and therefor convinced of my confusion.That sort of confused nonsense could only come from a confused mind. :p

Ok, I shall speak to the deliberately deaf one last time.

Originally posted by Spider AL
As explained before, doesn't mean they haven't lost it. You don't have an answer to that, apparently.

The answer has been given again and again; loss is irrelevant to the non-existent.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Since your desires include robbing everything of the option of existence, the metaphorical ice-cream, yes you DO need an excuse at the very LEAST. A reason would be better though.

A reason has been given.

Originally posted by Spider AL
As for your continued claims of not being able to use your crippling life-pain for any good purpose... Rubbish. Nothing's stopping you, nothing can. All you need is a mind and a will, and you have both, whether you choose to use them or not.

And thus we touched the topic of choice, another illusion. An illusion bound to "free will", which must be the number one romantic notion of mankind.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Again you fail to see that that's irrelevant to the point I was making.

A point rendered irrelevant following my point.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Yuck, how oppressively Freudian. He was a dirty-minded quack, you know. Nothing MAKES a man do anything but himself and his choices.

I know little of Freud's teachings and he has no bearing on my views. As for your notion that man can act outside the influence of holistic causality, well, that again brings up the illusory subject of "free will".

Originally posted by Spider AL
Of course "can" is enough, because it implies CHOICE. You can choose to use pain for a positive purpose. That you either choose not to or have successfully deluded yourself into thinking that you can't, is all down to you.

And again, the illusion of a free will.

Originally posted by Spider AL
If you're trying to annoy me it won't work. I've been annoyed by professionals.

Condescending crowdpleasing applied by you for the nth time. It shall be addressed last in this post.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Still lost it though, haven't you.

Though irrelevant in non-existence, isn't it?

Originally posted by Spider AL
Don't be pedestrian, an afterlife by definition frees you from any physical restrictions placed upon your mortal shell "in life".

And being freed from my "physical restrictions" I suddenly turn into this beautiful spirit flapping away into eternity with a big grin frozen onto my incorporeal face, huh? What romantic folly.

Originally posted by Spider AL
LOL! Getting confused again eh. If you think you're going to hell anyway, there's nothing stopping you from fulfilling your wishes at least in part, negating a HUGE portion of your argument. So why are you still here? Perhaps because you're arguing a lost point for the sake of hearing your keyboard rattle. Do enlighten us.

No confusion about it, and your question has been answered more than once.

Originally posted by Spider AL
So you think it's true? That surely would be an unpleasant dilemma. Use it to some positive purpose!

Again you presume to ordering the how of my proceeding when not knowing the why of my situation.

Originally posted by Spider AL
That sort of confused nonsense could only come from a confused mind.

I rest my case.

**************************************************

As I started out in this post, this will be the final in this thread, from me in any event. I've tolerated your condescending crowdpleasing, in abundance I might add, because any audience (if we have any), who lets themselves be manipulated by such cheap and hollow opponentbashing is an audience of oppinions I care not to heed.

Sitting in the bus home I contemplated why I kept feeding your ego, and the simple answer was of course that I was feeding my own by cutting down your continious opposition. But no more; your ego has been fed quite enough, and you have again and again proven that you, like the vast majority of the world, absolutely must ridicule me in order to keep your illusions intact that you may hide that primal fear of oblivion from your consciousness with masks of pride, reigion, defiance, etc.

The delusions that you through your life have been dealt and those you have built yourself will keep you from ever understanding me, but nevertheless you ought to be capable of accepting that I am as I am and no amount of religious or societal dogma will change that, for you have indeed changed nothing in my views. All you have accomplished, and for that I guess I should be grateful, is awakening me further to the casting away of my ego, so I'll refrain from entering these discussions which I know from the beginning are futile. Have known for years, so shame on me for that.

This single fact remains: I do crave for the annihilation of all existence.

Now, you have your ego, your delusions and your audience to attend to, so if you please, present us with our last patronizing bravado - make it spectacular!

(Oops, there I went satisfying my ego again....really gonna stop now.)