I think less civs will actually be better but have the commander system i've envisged { i've even given up getting the chiss in }. We could put other civ units under the command of certian commanders based on relations we know they have with them.

Luke skywalker could get wookie units

General Kenobi could get naboo and gungan units

Darth Vader could get noghirir and trandoshan units

General Taan could get Chiss units

Nitro for your benefit i'll post the commanders up

Rebel Aliance

General Jan Dodona

General Jan Dodonna Is best at making the best out of a bad situation thanks to skillful deploymenty of the scarce few heavy firepower uits in the alliance with skillfull support of x-wings and b-wings since he iis used to commanding just those aircraft he is reluctant to try and insert the A,B and E wings into his strategy so he doesn't get them. he prefers to preserve his forces only commiting when absoloutly nessacery and relies on superior intelligence to deploy his meager resources

Classification: Intelligence Firepower

General Antilles

Gets Starfighter bonuses all aircraft trained as veterans cheaper faster and in general better

Classifcation: Fighters

General Skywalker

Good at commando tactics X-wings have no targeting Computers but their accuracy ratio is better because of luk's power of the force. Jedi have the special ability to make troops work together better by using force co-ordination. His commandos are also stealthed and are generally better and also gets mounted commandos as well as the ability to enlist the locals.

Classification: Commandos Terrain Advanatages

Imperial Navy

General Maximillian Veers

Gets access to walkers which are trained as veterans gets an Walker Construction facility that would replace the imperial mechanised production factory where walkers are constructed. would get variuos upgrades like Improved Gyros that would allow walkers to move faster and fire while moving. Also gets the stormtrooper commando { snowtrooper inspired } He is unable however to mount effective sieges and relies on fast attacks being very vulnerable to hit and run.

Classification: Walkers Fast Attacks

Admiral Motti

Admiral Motti beleives in Sheer weight of numbers due to the vast untapped resources of manpower in the empire he has developed Enchanced training regimes that allow half trained forces to be employed in the filed with experienced units which completes their training and helps make them a deadly asset. He also uses the same with TIE fighters using swarm after swarm off there swift fighters in an attempt to wear them down. He gets access to the repulsolift line of tanks Since general Veers is the walker expert. He gets a slight production bonus which increases slowly the longer the game goes on.

Classification: Numerical Superiority

Darth Vader

Gets access to advanced technologies since he is the Emporer's Right hand man he gets access to The TIE Advanced X1 and later the TIE Defender can train the imperial royal red guard. Gets advanced factories but units have less health and are more likely to defect due to the dark lords treatment of his men. Dark jedi can also have a similar effect to Luke skywalkers jedi except That once the dark jedi is killed the forces it was co-ordinating get lower statistics than before due to over reliance on them. He gets access to the repulsolift line of tanks Since general Veers is the walker expert


Classification: Advanced Technology And Raw Firepower Dark Jedi

Galactic Republic

General Kenobi

All rocket firing units run out quicker and have a slower rate of fire and reload but slightly greater accuracy his jedi starfighters are equipped with sonic mines after seeing how effectively the late jago fett used his. however his perceptiveness allows him to use uplink ceners to slowly reveal the area around enemy buidlings but this progress halts if power fails and is restarted if infiltrated Gets

CLassification: Siege And Intelligence

General Yoda

All units get greater armour General yoda gets access to the advanced AT-XT prototype and all units will fire faster when injured because of yodas inspirational leadership but unfortunatly General yodas airforce is lacking in equipment due to his preffered aircraft being the gunship and gunship transport. He is however the only general in the game to get jedi masters. Which have a very minor version of luke skywalkers and darth vaders force co-ordination abilities

Classification: Jedi Infantry And Support

General Skywalker { Anakin Of Course }

Gets the upgraded jedi starfighter { clone wars shorts } all units get a shorter line of sight all units move faster and atack faster while they all cost more but build faster. However he does not get access to some of the more advanced upgrades and advanced units but he does get the Torrent class starfighter and gets some technologies other republic generals do not.

Classification: Advanced Fighter Technology And Engineer Officer

Speratist

General Grevious

Not Much is known about General Greviuos so as more details are released about him and after episode 3 is released analyis of his tactics will allow him to be classified. Possibly Droids and their effective application to the field and their upgrades based on his own components. He also can equip some droids with lightsabres from fallen jedi and hs units get an attack bonus versus them. he heaviuly uses droid piloted units with some notable exceptions.

General Poggle

Poggle being from geonosis gets an almost completly different set of buildings that look like they're from geonosis His production facilities are the most expensive in the game but are underground with only the entrace on the surface and builds units faster quicker and slightly cheaper but only when production foundires are clustered in groups of 3 or more his foundries can also be equipped with multiple exits increasing unit cost by half but allowing another one of that unit for free. he gets the geonosain warrior, Fanblade Fighter sonic cannon and gets a bonus to research however his activities are often very hard to conceal and thus has no stealth capabilities and his Geonosain fighters alothough increadibly effective are more expensive.

Classification: Production And Sonic Technology

General Taan

General Taan a master of training and tactics and especially deception She hails from the Chiss Consortium and can Build Chiss bodyguards to protect sites of great importance. Also due to the fact it was she who stole the decimator designs she can also construct these however due to materials being needed for her decimators units will be less well armed and armoured and sverely damaged units have a chance of blowing up when if attacked. to compensate for this she can disguise her troops when in large groups.

Classification: Ambush Infiltrartion and Decimators

Why is Luke Skywalker leading Wookiee units?

Because han marries leia and that makes Luke part of chewbaccas honour family. also because he's the only alliance leader { in the template }who knows a wookie well.

I'm not really a fan of a Commander system like that, on the whole it's far too similar to the Generals in Zero Hour.

You liked it earlier. The classification is just so forumites know what they're side leans towards but they hjave abilities to use other startegies.


This is superior to anything EA could possibly hope to create so don't compare Mud to a jewel

Originally posted by General Nitro
If you ever show up to the forum game puzzlebox, you probably wont have very friendly allies...

Thats quite alright Nitro I stopped trying to get the blood off of the dagger a while ago;)

You liked it earlier.Well if I did I've changed my mind now.This is superior to anything EA could possibly hope to create so don't compare Mud to a jewelHave you played Generals: Zero Hour? Because what you're suggesting is exactly what they have. Even if it was implemented more successfully than the rather unbalanced way they have things, it's still the exact same concept.

I think something was lost in the translation

EA turns ANY good idea into a dirt clod this would be a jewel namely because EA wouldn't be involved and yes i do have zero hour i now use it as a firisbee since that's more fun. Zero hour doesnb't have what star wars has. There are very few original game system ideas floating arounf out there if at all.

Still I think there's plenty of scope for new ideas rather than just using the Zero Hour idea and doing it better than EA. At least a reinterpretation of it like this:

Each faction has three Commanders, each with a different speciality. Throughout the course of a game, if you meet certain criteria you will be given access to one of the three Commanders. After completing further criteria, you can employ a second Commander. However, you can't employ the third one, you only get access to two of the possible three at most.

It's similar to both Zero Hour and AoM, but different enough to not be a complete copy.

Perhaps though i thought in any army you reported to only oner Commanding officer especially since comining some would be a little overpowered however individually they're better.

Why don't you like the idea anymore and o daft reason like it copies ZH

"I'll just reiterate my stance on the number of civs since you brought it up Nitro, and since I get the impression Puzzlebox's design includes a relatively large range of civs."

Just five Vostok, but one would imagine an expansion would be seen if for no other reason than money.

Conquer the Galaxy-DK, when you talk about space battles are you talking about mincing them with the normal game or not?

It also may get too repetitive, unless you planned on adding a lot of secondary civs and such.

Puzzlebox - my reply to your post was not meant to seem aggressive or anything of the sort.

Viceroy - but with the Avenger, they never existed in the films, and that is why most people would buy the game. To me, the Empire's signature units are expendable fighters and heavy Mech's.

As for the Generals idea, as you all may know i have a general for each civ throughout the single-player game. However i have also gone back to giving each civ three MP generals with various bonuses and whatnot, but unlike Zero Hour they do not lose any weapons, although a UU for each is being considered.

Also, I have decided to use Vostok's Republic Dropship Worker concept, although slightly different from how he has it, but this means i need another Republic unit - any ideas?

Apparently your template is downloaded as SWGB2.doc
I remember having multiple download boxes up at the time I downloaded yours and I wouldn't imagine it to be very difficult to guess what happened seeing as how "Windu's Template" isn't Windu's Template, your actual doc errors and is only accessible through quick view. Swgb2gp.doc was headed as yours.

Now I'm sure I've insulted someone else by listing their template as the one I berated but oh well, after reading this thinking it was yours Windu I assigned to you the attributes of an idiot and have thought of you that way since I read it, from that perspective I could only view your response to me as hostile because morons don't have proper usage and lack descriptive capabilities. Well my system has some kinks I suppose, not that I group absolutely everybody.

I haven't gotten through your template yet because my quick view is semi retarded, but I will read it all soon. You did remark stupidly once however, the template in your mind can't be unworkable because you have not fully seen it, that is just a sample I pulled to give Vostoc a bone to see if he could actually be of any help.

Viceroy - the fact it copies Zero Hour is not a "daft" reason at all, and is one of the biggest reasons I no longer like the concept. The biggest criticism of SWGB was that it was too similar to Age of Kings, so if the next Star Wars RTS copies another popular RTS again people are going to be even less approving of it.

Windu - I don't know how you maintain balance if they gain stuff but don't lose any units.

Puzzlebox - hopefully my response to the "bone" you threw me has proven the worth of community opinion on your ideas, since we've most likely undertaken heavy discussion on many of the fundamental concepts for a new Star Wars RTS.

Can I ask straight out what your five civs are to get any criticism I have of the choices you've made out of the way before you go ahead and work out the entirity of each civ?

Yes but remeber this will be different in terms of the Tech level rerplacement i've came up with the Priority Level System.

one thing on that though how many should we have and how should we number them ex. 1-5 or 5-1

and since you would be choosing it in game that's also another fundamental differnce.

Vostok i thoucght about your idea and maybe you could pick your commanding officers second in command and depending on which preimary you chose decides what bonuses you get from the secondary to rpevent imbalances or overpowering

this perhaps is better.

also vostok in case you remeber i was pushing for this system before i went missing so it's hardly a copy of Zero hour just me resserecting a good idea and EA having since used it.

There you go! The second-in-command idea is great and really makes it quite different from Zero Hour.

It doesn't matter if you thought of it before EA, they put it in a game before you, so putting it in a game now will still look like a rip off even if you thought of it first.

As for Tech Levels (or Priority Levels, whatever) I think five is a bit too much. Three or four is decent. I have no opinion on which way the numbering system should go.

I think you should start with 1 and go up from there.

5 was an example

i thought abot reverse nbumbering because 1 could be the highest priority and say 5 the lowest.

Puzzlebox I envision having maps that have space battles and maps that don't but normally there would be space elements.

Windu are you forgetting Vader's tie The TIE Advanced X/1 or the TIE Avenger. The general idea is similar to that except i'm putting in more than one unique unit to encourage diversity in an already diverse idea NO generic units at all yeah civs may get similar units but not identical.

Viceroy, including the TIE Avenger will make the Empire's play style notably different from what we see in the movies, and that is why it is bad. Some EU fits in with the movie style, like AT-PTs, some does not, like TIE Avengers.

I was just sayig it was in the movies i wasn't saying it would be in the game. Maybe darth Vader might get them since he piloted the prototype but it would be more feasible to make TIE fighters and Interceptors

TIE Avengers are not in the movies.

At this point I'd like to repost Vostok's Laws of Non-Canon Units and Star-Warsy-ness to show exactly how the TIE Avenger doesn't fit, and also for Puzzlebox's benefit to help him make a game with the proper StarWarsy feel.

1. The Non-Canon Unit shall not replace or at least do-as-well-as a Canon Unit at a given task.

2. It is possible for the Non-Canon Unit to exist as we did not see a type of warfare it excels at in the movies.

3. The Non-Canon Unit shall not have some amazing ability that just about every army would have if they existed.

The TIE Avenger violates the First and Second Laws.

Since you are a purist and therefore Despise EU you thereeoifre under estimate it. Do you actually know what the avenger was. The TIE Advanced X-1 is in the movies vaders trie in casde your forgetting. ah put your a purist of course you klnow you merely forget Putists to be considered lords of purism must know the film inside out and back to front.

Vader's TIE is not the TIE Avenger. The TIE Avenger was mass produced for normal TIE Fighter Pilots to compete with the superior X-Wings and A-Wings of the Rebel Alliance. Vader's TIE is just better because it's for Vader and not the common TIE Fighter Pilot.

Even if Vader's TIE was a prototype for the TIE Avenger, the main thing I'm disputing is TIE Avengers being used in force, not the fact that the most important guy in the Imperial Forces has a better Fighter.

And I'll tell you again: A Star Wars Purist does not necessarily know the films inside out and back to front. A Star Wars Scholar does. Don't assume they are one and the same thing. I just happen to be both, which may be confusing you.

TIE Avenger = No
TIE Fighters, Bombers, and possibly Interceptors = :D

I have the Avenger as a scenario editor unit, if people want it they have it by allowing Empire to build through there, but seeing as how it was not my intention for it to be used.... I wanted it to be buildable but have no one build it. Yes Thats what I said:)

Your getting the TIE Avenger Getting Mixed Up With the Far Superior TIE Defender. though you are right even though Pilots prefered the Avenger they got the Interceptor. and only pilots with proven experince with the AVenger got the Defender because at the time of the balle of endor they had just entered mass production and were rare but after the emporer's death the orders were never completed and the empire only started to use them at the time Bastion was attacked by the yuuzhan vong and by the time of their Defeat almost all interceptors had been replaced.

At any rate, including either the TIE Avenger or TIE Defender, portrayed as they are in the EU, will seriously alter the Empire's style of play from what we see in the movies.

Which is bad.

I only have one imperila general who has access to those and that's Darth vader his speciality is advanced technology and since he's the most important it makes sense he would get the best fighters.

Well sure that logic makes sense. But if that is the case why didn't he have the best fighters at the Battle of Yavin or the Battle of Endor, or even trying to locate the Millennium Falcon after the Battle of Hoth for that matter?

One thing nothing is clear about is what Darth Vader was actually doing at Yavin or on the death star for that matter. Remeber the TIE Advanced x-1 was the prototype and was tested at yavin and thus it was the best at the time.

He got the FIRST EVER super star destroyer that's certainly seems like the best to me. and do you know how many fighters it would take to equip that thing it doesn't show that much detail of all the starfighters in the escape from hoth so we cannot say but logic stands tht he would have had some avengers but if i rember rightly they wern't as maouevrable as an interceptor. So that may be why6 we didn't see any because vader may not have wanted to waste expensive equipemtn when interceptors were so much cheaper. cheilds won't protectt you if you run itno an asteroid. also the fighters at bespin were merely decoys to make them think they were seroius but if vader had wanted to destroy the falcon he would merely have had to order the ship to open up with main batteries.

There weren't any Interceptors in Empire Strikes Back in the asteroid field, only Fighters and Bombers. In fact there weren't any Interceptors in ESB at all, which probably means they weren't in use then (since Vader would obviously have deployed Interceptors to chase the Falcon before it entered the Asteroid Field).

You claim that Avengers were in use before the Battle of Endor. If that is the case why aren't there any in the Battle of Endor?

Oh and as far as I'm concerned, Vader got the ONLY ever Super Star Destroyer ;)

Simple they were being phased out in favour of the superior TIE Defender and do we really see loads of footage of the starfighter battles. If you check some of the literature it does state that there were several squadrons of both avengers and defenders but due to my meager collection at present i cannot find a viable quote becaue all my collection dates at least 5 years after endor.

do we really see loads of footage of the starfighter battlesYes we do, when was the last time you saw Return of the Jedi?

Surely in all the shots of the largest space battle in the Civil War we would have seen at least one Avenger, even if they were being phased out, or one Defender, even if they were being phased in.

But we don't. Why? Because they're only EU, and as such not continuous with Star Wars.

I do not relish the exhaustive scanning process but i have another factfile entry to upload shortly. and after re-reading it I have found a slight mistake in my memory since the Avenger was used as a trainer with very few only seeing combat service under Darth vader but only under him

http://dk_viceroy.tripod.com/images2)

it even gives a price for the TIE defender and TIE fighter it's a simple question of math


300,000 credits divided by 5 gives you the price of a TIE fighter

or in other words 60,000 for a TIE Fighter

EU contradicts itself.

You claim the Avenger is actually less effective then the Interceptor, less maneuvrable and slower while that is untrue. It should be the opposite.

As for the Defender in the Battle of Endor, it's thoroughly impossible. Shortly after Admiral Zaarin betrayed the Empire, the Defender was removed from service in the Imperial, the last ships being safely transported to Coruscant. The only ones still in use were under Zaarin's command and the ones captured by pirates.

Defenders never saw Endor.

Viceroy - the whole point of the Avenger and Defender being EU is that they didn't appear in the films.

Vostok - with the Generals, each player mst choose a General for MP, so there isnt any unbalancing. The reason i dont like removing units, like in ZH, is because i find it unrealistic. For example, even though Admiral Piett is an Aircraft General, I can still see him using AT-AT's. I was, however, thinking of offsetting advantages. Again using Piett as an example, he gains aircraft speed, build time, cost, firepower and armour increases, while suffering decreases in the same areas for mechs.

I only said it was less manoueerable not less effective. and there was

Colonel Maarek Stele and Lord Darth Vader figured prominently in early TIE defender missions to stop Zaarin. Only a handful of these ships were deployed as part of Onyx Squadron during the Battle of Endor.

and that is from the starwars.com data bank itself and we didn't see all of the battle of endor remeber the film focused mainly on endor's moon and the second death star there was quite a bit of the battle but certainly by no means all of it.

I say don not include the TIE Avenger and the TIE Defender because you already have the the TIE Fighter and TIE Bomber. If you did include the Avenger and Defender in the game, then you should explain the unit and where in the EU it comes from in the databank included on the game. All EU should be explained in the databank and include where in the EU they came from. The main reason for this is that not everyone knows hat much about the EU although it is very cool.

I'm giving the Defender to Dartn Vader as a general unit but maybe if there was a campaign for each general he could get Avenger re-infrocements.

Just had an idea

if you had Darth Vader and Admiral motti with vader as primary and motti as secondary commadning officers you'd get the avenger or maybe that could be the defender.

anyway the point is if you combine generals you could get a few more unique units depending on the combo.

Colonel Maarek Stele and Lord Darth Vader figured prominently in early TIE defender missions to stop Zaarin. Only a handful of these ships were deployed as part of Onyx Squadron during the Battle of Endor.Yeah, there were also Dreadnoughts around the back somewhere, plus a whole heap of Interdictor Cruisers and Assault Gunboats, and just in case the worst happened there was a backup Death Star.

We just didn't see them in the extensive footage of the space battle.

:rolleyes:

Why would they need an interdictor cruiser the Death star both 1 and 2 were home to an extremely powerful experimental Interdiction device. Oynx Squadron was there however the only squadron of TIE defenders. you'd hardly be able to see one squadron amongst thousands. I shall however look through the endor scenes and at least try to locate it's silouete. I shall know it when i see it.

Let me save you the trouble and tell you there is definitely not any Defenders in the movie. If you do manage to see one I'll relinquish my title of Star Wars Scholar and become a Star Trek fan. The reason the EU has said there was only a single squadron is exactly because you don't see any, and including any more than a single squadron would be way too much of a stretch of the imagination.

Nothing said their might not be a sliheoeuete or even an unidentified blur. considering since defenders were faster than a-wings that might be the case

Yep, that's right. Lucasfilm went to all the trouble of building models of the Defenders to put them in Return of the Jedi so that they just appear as a blur in the final edit :rolleyes:

I can't believe an EU author would have the gall to make them faster than A-Wings. Where do these hacks get off? They just shouldn't try to out-do the movies, it just ends up stupid.

Wasn't the Defender's first appearance in Tie Fighter?

Then it would make sense to make it faster then the A-wing.

Why would they need an interdictor cruiser the Death star both 1 and 2 were home to an extremely powerful experimental Interdiction device.

And that's why they needed the Imperial fleet the cut off the Rebels if they tried to escaped but hey, they could have used the Interdiction device and tractor beams. Damn they're stupid.

Imperial ships should be faster they are a military force and the rebels are a band of terrorists who should have been wiped from the face of the galaxy. :D

Very simple vostok

define the Acronym TIE in reference to the TIE Defender and then use some logic comparing number of engines. the answer is not only logical but painfully obviuos.

define the Acronym TIE in reference to the TIE Defender and then use some logic comparing number of engines. the answer is not only logical but painfully obviuos.No problem.

TIE stands for Twin Ion Engine. The TIE Defender has a Twin Ion Engine just the same as a TIE Fighter has a Twin Ion Engine.

The TIE Fighter is slower than the A-Wing. Since the TIE Defender not only has the exact same engine as the TIE Fighter (due to having the same TIE acronym) plus the Defender has the added power drain of employing shields, we can only assume the Defender is also slower than the A-Wing.

Wow you're right, the logic was painfully obvious...

I had a feeling you didn't know.

Triple Ion Engines it even says it in that databank entry i posted. it also say that the engines are a compltly redesigned vesion of the TIE Interceptor which means that since it has three very fast engines opposed to the a-wings 2 means that even with the sheilds and extra armnament it still has a significant speed advantage over the a-wing.

ALso it has three sets of solar panels that have a greater surface area which balances out the power drain off sheilds extra weapons and hyperdrive.

and the acronym is slightly wrong you forgot the s off the end of engine.

Twin Ion Engines meaning there are 2 engines in a TIE.

it's a common misconception that a TIE has only one engine when it heas at least two.