I hafta agree with ET that that sounds kinda lame. Then why is heaven there?

And another thing, who created heaven? was it God? Then why did he create Earth? Why was eating from that apple enough to send us there? What was so bad about it? Why were there already animals? They didn't do anything wrong. They should've stayed there.

Oh boy that was more off topic thhen i ever posted. But i'd like to know anyway.

Originally posted by Doomgiver
I hafta agree with ET that that sounds kinda lame. Then why is heaven there?

And another thing, who created heaven? was it God? Then why did he create Earth? Why was eating from that apple enough to send us there? What was so bad about it? Why were there already animals? They didn't do anything wrong. They should've stayed there.

Oh boy that was more off topic thhen i ever posted. But i'd like to know anyway.

God created heaven with Earth. Before Earth there was nothing. Except for God. He got kinda bored with it so he decided to make Heaven and Earth.

Here's how the earth was made:

The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [1] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning-the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning-the third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning-the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning-the sixth day.

Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [1] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.


Adam and Eve
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [2] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [3] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [4] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man [5] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin [6] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. [7] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam [8] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [9] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [10] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,

"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [11] '
for she was taken out of man."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame

The Fall of Man

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,

"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [1] and hers;
he will crush [2] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

20 Adam [3] named his wife Eve, [4] because she would become the mother of all the living.
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [5] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

That's the creation of the earth, the creation of man, and the fall of man in NIV.

So what you're saying is, befor Jesus died, EVERYONE went to hell. So there were no people going to heaven for the thousands of years before Jesus' birth? God must have been lonely.

Noooooo. The Jews had to earn their way to Heaven by sacrifices and such. But when Jesus came they didn't have to do that anymore. But the denied that Jesus is the Messiah so that's why they still do this stuff today. But if you do not accept that Christ died on the cross to pay your sindebt and rose on the thrid day then yes you are going to Hell. But if you do then your going to Heaven. I could sit here and type all about Heaven till this post is full and i still wouldn't scratch it.


They're just following their harts!

No they are following their lustful thoughts thinking that it is their heart. Their heart wouldn't want them to be gay.


"If gay marriage is legal, everyone in the world is going to be gay and we're doomed". Are YOU planning on jumping on the nearest guy to you once gay marriage is legal? Just because it's legal doesn't mean everyone will do it.

But it would influence it.. and no. I have no plans on jumping on any man. (Unless i am falling and he happens to be in the way)


Lyrnx

Close. Thread. Please. I do not want to see ANY of this crap in here. Must we have a religious debate in EVERY forum?!

:eek: That's got to be the friggin longest post i ever saw!

Originally posted by Lyrnx
No they are following their lustful thoughts thinking that it is their heart. Their heart wouldn't want them to be gay.


But it would influence it.. and no. I have no plans on jumping on any man. (Unless i am falling and he happens to be in the way)

Firstly, you have NO idea what their hearts want. So you can NOT judge that atall.

Secondly, why would it influence it? It's not like it's ILLEGAL to be Gay right now, so what difference would it have? And if YOU don't plan on becoming gay once gay marriage is legal, why would OTHER people who aren't gay decide to change? It's not like we're planning on making straight marriage illegal. :rolleyes:

That's got to be the friggin longest post i ever saw!
That's because we got a big ol copy n paste of genesis of the Bible, which was a waste because nobody will read it.

ah.. look .. a religious debate far from the senate.. :p

Originally posted by ET Warrior
That's because we got a big ol copy n paste of genesis of the Bible, which was a waste because nobody will read it.

..except for the first sentence.. (lol)

:xp:

Uh no... First you gotta accept that you are a sinner, and that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose again on the third day and trust Him as your Lord and Saviour.

XD i find it funnier every time i hear it.

and everytime i realize that someone really believes this it makes me really, really sad.. :(

and errm.. i'm far from offending anyone.. but people like those, who really believe the stuff that was just posted will doom mankind one day. not gays.

see it's ok if you guys want to lead a "better life" and want to be helpful and whatnot.. but you do not need someone to tell you, you should do so or you go to hell if you dont. you can do it all "on your own". if you stop praising your lord half the day you could do much more better things than you can do now..

religion wastes your time.

i dont do things for "god". i do them for mankind.

..

as for the topic..

i think i have to agree with mort-hog here..

and after all.. all the countries are on one earth.. so does this really matter?

true words ray... true words. And yes, i think this thread was ready to go to the senate since the second post. WEll i'm no beleiver as well but to think it's sad, uhm alright... to say out loud that you think it's sad is a bit... you know. But i don't know the word for it.

err.. i did not say it is sad, i said it makes me sad.

i never would say it is sad. but i rather would say it aloud than thinking it.

;)

ah ok. that's alright then.

So you're thinking God is funny? Ha ha ha ha ha.... *ahem* He does have a bit of humor in Him, but wait till Judgement Day comes... You'll be regreting every word you said about that.



Here's the entire answer that sums up Americas situation. Our forefathers would be ashamed that they even made this place away from Britain.

Anyone know of Soddom and Gommorrah? Well the story goes that Sodd and Gorr were so evil that God smote the two cities to ashes. The closer this world gets to being like those cities, the closer the Rapture is. And the Rapture I am greatly looking forward to.....



Lyrnx

So you're thinking God is funny? Ha ha ha ha ha.... *ahem* He does have a bit of humor in Him, but wait till Judgement Day comes... You'll be regreting every word you said about that.

What? What'd i do?

Religion isnt a joke. I mean, God is an awesome person. He's loving, caring, nice and all. And he loves you, even if you hated him, he'd still love you, like a sheep gone astray to a shepherd. But if you dont accpet and embrace his love, he will send you to hell, where there is eternal pain, suffereing, and the ternal seperation from God.

Originally posted by yaebginn
.. But if you dont accpet and embrace his love, he will send you to hell, where there is eternal pain, suffereing, and the ternal seperation from God..

(we have now 2004/07/12 :dozey: )

i dont care going to hell because i am not afraid of it. bah. i fear other things than those where it's not even sure (for me) if they exist.
if your "god" has something to say then, please, he can "show up" and tell me his "divine" opinion, but he does not. period. (dont tell me "he" is everywhere, i know that stuff.)

i will not regret anything nor will i waste my time and power (and, of course, my money .. :dozey: ) for someone/thing "who" doesnt even tries to make this world a better place.
yes, i have love and much more to give, but not for a god. yes, i do care about other people and respect them, but why should i need a god (or church) to tell me i should? my mind is strong enough to lead me through life without that i start whining everytime something is harder than expected.
i can live a good and creative life without worshipping anything. i can think for my own. i dont need a religious brainwash.

and this is what makes me sad. why doesnt mankind get that a peaceful together, taking care of each other and living a "good" life has nothing to do with a god or religion?? pah.

without religion mankind could be 500 years ahead of where it's now.

and thats what makes me sad. Knowin that when you die, unless you turn around, you're going to hell. That makes me sad. You dont grasp what Hell is. We tell people to go there in our daily life, but if we grasped what it was, we'd cringe everytime we heard the name. I dont even want Sadam Hussein to go there, its so horrible.

Oh wow, time to set things straight.

"Lifestyle" and "religion" are not mutually exclusive.

'Religion' dictates how you live your life, not just what you believe. Semantically, a 'religion' is the organised worship of one or more gods. Buddhism is not a religion.
You are not a Christian if you just claim to be one, you are a Christian if you live your life to Christian standards.
Lots of people claim to be 'moderate' Christians and believe 'parts' of the Bible and not others. No, Christianity is one package, you either accept all of it or none of it.

I do like to add this whenever Christianity comes up... Why are you a Christian?
God came to the prophet Abraham, who started the Jewish following. After 2000 years, they meandered away from God and He sent the prophet Jesus Christ, who, after his death, started the Christian following. After just 700 years, God came to the prophet Muhammed (saws). As it took only 700 years, it makes me think that the Christians got something very wrong very quickly. And as God has not come to any other prophet since then, it makes perfect sense to assume that Islam is the word of God.
Islam overrides Christianity, Islam is the new and updated word of God. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

If you are to believe in God, you should be a muslim. To be a Jew or a Christian is to deny God Himself.

Of course, that is a pretty big "if".


Modern society does not need Christianity. Individuals cater for their individual beliefs. Christianity does not make people happy. The wholly illogical argument against homosexuality is one example of this. People are increasingly questioning everything around them, and are not happy with believing something just because it says in an old mistranslated book. Why is homosexuality wrong?
Because the Bible says so.
That is not a logical or sensible answer.
People are questioning Christianity, some turn away and others stick to it.

Americans tend to the latter. Christian fundementalism is stronger in southern America than anywhere else in the world.
This thread itself is an example of how Americans refuse to question themselves, when the rest of the world do so daily.
Religion and the state should always be completely separate. Even the founding fathers of America knew that. If the two are linked, then you are left with a feudal state of a religious dictatorship, with the Government said to be divinely inspired. Dubya doesn't need majority vote, he is placed there by God! And as Christians refuse to question Christianity, they too will refuse to question their government.
Yes, the conservative American media love to paint itself as the example of freedom for the world over, and Americans love to lap up that lie. The world hates America, and the world is laughing at America.

Europe has for many centuries had atheist governments and has developed society in the interests of the happiness of their people, with change and development being the key. America has stuck to the same 'traditional values' for centuries and refused change. It is this that has left America 11 trillion dollars in debt. 11 trillion dollars.


Oh, and I already told you, I am from Bulgaria. I don't see how this assumption makes any difference whatsoever. I am not comparing country X with America, I am comparing the world with America.

America was built on Christian beliefs and still follows them and is one of the youngest countries. But its the most powerful, the richest, has the strongest military. It's also free and we talk normal. I dont know all about the muslim religion, so I wont debate with you on why its wrong. I know and believe that God is real, for the wonderful things he's done in my life. and yours, but you wont allow yourself to see it. You'll just say, 'Ooh, got lucky there'

And he loves you, even if you hated him, he'd still love you, like a sheep gone astray to a shepherd. But if you dont accpet and embrace his love, he will send you to hell, where there is eternal pain, suffereing, and the ternal seperation from God.

That sounds really loving... :dozey:

But alright, i see the thread has shifted back to America a bit. Again. Mort-hog is making some pretty good points, but so is Yaeb. There are a lot of stories about miraculous cures by the hand of God, and even if it wasn't God, but merely the believing (subconscious and thoughts and stuff can do more than you might think) it's a good example of religions being good for something. About America... that's a bad example.

I didn't read the whole thread, cuz that would take a lot of time, but I love dem "saying how bad america is" threads, especially when there are americans in them :D

Originally posted by yaebginn
And he loves you, even if you hated him, he'd still love you, like a sheep gone astray to a shepherd. But if you dont accpet and embrace his love, he will send you to hell, where there is eternal pain, suffereing, and the ternal seperation from God.

THIS is the part that really gets me going. I mean honestly, how can you believe that a deity who LOVES you would damn you to an eternity of suffering just because you chose to spend your time HELPING the other people he loves, as opposed to worshipping him? I know what love is, sir. And that is NOT love. I love my family, I love my friends, and I love my girlfriend. I would NEVER, EVER do anything that would cause pain or suffering to any one of those people, even for a few minutes, let alone all of eternity.


I also am impressed at the way that everything good that happens in your lives is the result of God's intervention, but the bad things are just random crap that happened, God had nothing to do with it.

Hey, you nkow Islam was founded by some guy that learned about Judaism and Christianity, but thought how they could be improved and started his own religion? Islam means: 'surrendering to God' or something like that. Now if your God really cared about that sort of thing, wouldn't all islamitic countries be destroyed like those two cities? Furthermore, it proves that Jezus could've very well been an ordinary guy that just wanted some attention, or better yet, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and people started worshipping him. (Go watch life of brian to give you a general idea). Then people could've made up the rest, like ghost stories.

Let's start a new religion! Worship the lord GL! Starwars is our holy 'book'!

Originally posted by Doomgiver
Hey, you nkow Islam was founded by some guy that learned about Judaism and Christianity, but thought how they could be improved and started his own religion? Islam means: 'surrendering to God' or something like that. Now if your God really cared about that sort of thing, wouldn't all islamitic countries be destroyed like those two cities? Furthermore, it proves that Jezus could've very well been an ordinary guy that just wanted some attention, or better yet, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and people started worshipping him. (Go watch life of brian to give you a general idea). Then people could've made up the rest, like ghost stories.

Let's start a new religion! Worship the lord GL! Starwars is our holy 'book'! Jesus was born jewish, and died jewish, christianity can't be blamed on him. He only wanted to change judaism.

Darth, you hit the nail on the head. Everyone's goal in life should be to better themselves and their Community. I do live in America and yes I geuss I am somewhat bias in my opinion of the US, but in thinking about that everyone else has the same right in whatever country they come from.

I am not here to say America is the best or anything like that, but I think I am correct in saying that almost everyone in the world knows who our President is..No? That must mean something. So many people not only in this thread, but in forums and newspapers and magazines all over the world criticize how we run things and how our system works. We always get blamed for everything and we never do anything right.

So many people from all around the world have opinions about the US in one way or another, but to be truthful how many other countries around the world get that same attention? China...maybe? Iraq...maybe? Europe...maybe? but not to the same degree that we get criticized. I know that we do some stupid stuff and we can not appease everyone all the time...we try, but to no avail.

While the world continues to spin I say we try to focus on things we have influence on, and try to live in that little piece of world that you do.

Tomorrow the world will still be here...I hope.

but I think I am correct in saying that almost everyone in the world knows who our President is..No?

Can say the same about Jack the Ripper...

Actaully, he doesnt really send us there. We choose to go there. if I said he sends us there b4, I was mistaken. If we dont accpet him and join him, then we go to Hell because we just didnt go to heaven. Its our choice. wrong. bad things to us arent just crappy luck. God could be punishing us for doing something, as a father punsihes his son, Satan could be tempting us, trying to become discouraged, or It could just be that it happened because we were disobedient and if we followe God's way, we wouldnt be in the trouble, or it could be that we were obedient and we are being persecuted for loving Christ. All of those has happened to me before. and Christianity is Jesuss 'fault' He created it by living. Before Judeism(sp?) was the right way to go, but then he came and Judeism 'evolved' into Christianity. It's like a tv show. Friends for example. it was going great. Getting good ratings, being a good show. Then it ended and evolved to focus on one character, making the show Joey, premering this Fall. There is nothing wrong with Friends, it just changed to make something better. It's debatable on whether Joey will be better than Friends, but you get my point.

Mort,
you say "the conservative American media" and I am here to say that there is absolutly nothing conservative about our media...its extremly liberal my friend and a reader can only beleive about half of everything that is said.

o and 1 other thing for you Mort,
By you saying that Islam is the true faith above and beyond Christianity and Judiasm is a waht every faith believes. Every religon beleives it is the correct religon, if it didn't it would not exist.

But one thing I have noticed...every forum that I have entered where there is an Islamic person, he/she always finds a way to say exactly what you just said. why do Islamic people always try to paint a bias picture in everyones head? Is it because it is one of the goals of your religon, just like communism...to spread?


My opinion is that Muslims just need to relax and stopped feeling so threatened all the time.

My 'bad luck' exists out of big *******s making fun of me and pushing em around because they're stupid and big and i'm smart and rather small. I don't suppose the Lord would change their entire beings if i started believing in them?

EDIT: Damn, you beat me to it! But seriously, he's pretty much right. First, there was judaism. it evolved into Christianity. So then that was the right thing to belive in. Then it evolved further into Islam.

Originally posted by B1GC
you say "the conservative American media" and I am here to say that there is absolutly nothing conservative about our media...its extremly liberal my friend and a reader can only beleive about half of everything that is said.

...say what? Our media is LIBERAL? Are you kidding me? There is nothing liberal about our media these days my friend.



@yaebginn - Well if I get to CHOOSE if I'm going to heaven or hell, I choose heaven. I just don't understand why anyone would choose hell over heaven, they must be stupid.

And I guess you're saying that God caused 9/11 to happen, so why are we going after the terrorists? I mean, they were just acting out God's will weren't they? We needed to be punished for our sinful behaviors.

Yaeb, you say that America is so strong for the time it exists, but Israel, the day it was declered, was attacked by all arab countries around, and we won. So Israel > America x99999999

No, I believe Sept 11 was Satan working through the terrorists who believe a false religion. and you say 'oh, its stupid to choose hell over heaven' but thats what you're doing. by not accpeting God as your heavenly father and savior, thats what you are doing, choosing hell.

The media is so liberal you can't even tell. When was the last thing that you heard good from the war in Iraq. The media tries so hard to not put good things about the war in the news becasue it makes Bush look good and that is the last thing the media wants. You never hear about Bush doing anything good...but have you notcied gas prices going down? ive see a 50 cent per gallon decrease. The economy is doing well and unemployment is down. No I am not a Bush fan or a Kerry fan they are both idiots. I am a McCain fan.

Besides all that lets think abou thow you get into the media. Most Newspaper, tv, and magazine writers are what? journalists. And where do you get a degree in journalism? A liberal arts school. and just like the name says...LIBERAL. The only conservative News station is FOX news. ABC, CNN, CBS, MSNBC....all liberal.

Yaebginn, you're saying that if i say 'God created everything', wich i do, since i'm only for 95% Atheist, I'm going to heaven? Sweet!:)

Originally posted by ET Warrior
And I guess you're saying that God caused 9/11 to happen, so why are we going after the terrorists? I mean, they were just acting out God's will weren't they? We needed to be punished for our sinful behaviors.

Wrong. Islam is NOT and I repeat NOT involved with anything with God. God let's things happen. Sometimes He says Yes to some things and sometimes He says No, whichever is better for the cause.

Or

Satan was most likely the guilty culprit for 9/11. Tempting Bin-Laden to do it. Satan has many powers on this rock. Satan started "The Mother Church". Twisting Christianity into Cathlocism.(sp?) God has nothing to do with Muhammed or Allah. The Korran is a phony book of lies made by the Devil himself. Only the Bible is the true Holy Book. Even now, Satan is here making you think that Allah and God are one. He is wily and will not stop until you decline Almighty God. But noooo, he won't stop there. Here's his plans for the future:

When millions of people dissappear out of nowhere the event known as the Rapture has occured. And the beginning of the Seven Year Tribulation...
During the Tribulation Satan will get a person, born from Romania, to claim that he is the Christ. Everyone, even Israel, will like him. the Anti-Christ (or the Beast in Revalations) will sign a treaty with Israel to have protection from the plans ahead. The Beast will make a sign (666) and whoever doesn't have it on their foreheads will be unable to buy or sell items. From Heaven God will unleash his wrath by seven seals.

Revelation 6:
"The Seals

1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.
5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart[1] of wheat for a day's wages,[2] and three quarts of barley for a day's wages,[3] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"
7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

After that The Beast will get all nations to come together at Megiddo (Hebrew for Armegeddon) and that is when the Lord God will come out of heaven and kill everyone who has the Beast's mark. The few amount of Christians that beleive in God and survived the Seven Year Tribulation will go to the Lord's Millenia reign on earth. after that God will make a new heaven and a new earth. One that will not end.


Yaebginn, you're saying that if i say 'God created everything', wich i do, since i'm only for 95% Atheist, I'm going to heaven? Sweet!

Nope. You gotta trust in God as your Lord and Saviour to get to Heaven...


Lyrnx

Alright fine. I do that too! When i'm in serious trouble, i pray to Him! So i'm gonna go to heaven...

About that sign on the forehead stuff: won't the christians help eachother? There are so many of them. What kinda trial is that?

Stop posting verses from the bible, if you want us to read it, post a link to wherever your copy and pasting from, because it takes up space, and we don't want to read it, because there is NO proof that your book is ANY more right than the Koran, or the Lord of the Rings.


I dont like the way you Christians get to change the rules to exclude people. First it was that God sends us to hell, but then I pointed out the fallacy of that and suddenly I choose to go to hell, but I don't want to choose Hell, that's just dumb. But then I don't get to choose where I'm going.....

Sometimes He says Yes to some things and sometimes He says No, whichever is better for the cause.
But I thought God already had the master plan that nobody can change...so why would he need to say yes or no? He'll just let things happen exactly as they're supposed to.

My GOD christians are more stupid than I thought. The whole believing in god because if you don't god will send you to hell is ****ing dumb. It's not a reason.

Christians belief that everyone is placed on earth as a test...yes life is a test, it obvios where you go if you pass or fail. It is a simple test though...if you truly love God and ask for forgiveness of your sins and you truly mean it then you will go to heaved...if not hell.

When the rapture comes all the true christians will disappear all at once (this includes children and mentally handicaped). Basically this is all the good on the earth and all at once things go into chaos becasue all the nonbelievers will be left. At this point all those left have seven years to correct thier lives and live for Jesus and love God. during this time the world will become one ruled by the devil himself. After the seven years the Lord and his angels will meet the devil and his angels on one battlefield and destroy him.

Many of these things are already happening. Europe is already forming into one nation with the Euro doller. Talks are already commencing of rebuilding the temple of Soloman, which happens to be the samn location of the Dome of the Rock. The Book of Revaltions speaks of many things that are already happening today. Funny how it was written thousands of years ago. The Bible is being proven to be true every day.

Doesnt say much for the Quran does it. Many say it is the book of the devil himself, to confuse the truth with his ways....do i beilief it? I just dont know, what about you?

Things like that scare me...

So, if i want to go to heaven, and say, that rapture is tomorrow, what should i do?

someone really lies. honestly. :rolleyes:

it really exceeds my understanding how some of you people can sit in front of a computer and post this stuff in an internet forum. how can you use and rely to the inventions and advantages of science if you completely deny it's results in such a wide spectrum?

and if i die, i die. my body dies and rottens away. even if there is a soul that goes whereever, there cannot be any pain, because pain is some information "produced" by my long rotten body, which isnt connected to my soul anymore in any way. pain is there to protect me from hurting myself (my body). it's simple: no body, no pain.

if i ever will go to "hell", there may be everything included naked girls dancing. but not pain.

so you may be scared by hell, but hey.. accept, respect and tolerate that i am not. open your eyes. there is enough to be afraid of. while you have a body.

I wish you guys did Philosophy of Religion like I do. Here are a few thoughts to make an theist’s head spin:

The Judeo-Christian God is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving. BUT:

If God is all-powerful, can He create an object that's too heavy for Him to lift?
If He is timeless, then how can He think or act outside of time, because time is necessary for thought and act?
If God is all knowing, then that means He knows what you will do tomorrow – and if He knows that, then there is no free will, because you are not free to do what you will do tomorrow. If there is no free will then we are just robots under God.
If God is all-loving, then why is there evil in this world? Either he is loving but unable to fix evil (so not all powerful) or all-powerful but unwilling to fix evil (not all loving).
If God can do anything, can He create a square circle?
Why did God allow the Hollocaust?
If God created the universe, then what created him? If we just say that He is neccesary and not contingent, then this is a move that is illogical. It would make more sense to say that the universe itself is neccesary, and to leave God out of it. Therefore God makes no logical sense.
Furthermore, God would surely want us to worship him out of our own free will (for it to be meaningful), but by having the concept of Heaven and Hell as understood by many posters in this thread, this is an unfair influrence on the way people think. Too many would be worhsiping God out of fear from going to Hell, as they have done in the past, which, you must agree, is the wrong reason to worship God. Therefore hell is a concept that is unrealistic to the nature and purpose of God.

Another point - it's all a load of bollocks. Creationist science is improvable, and other sciences are more realistic. Relgious language such as "God is good" is meaningless, so don't try and respond with that. Take the anaology of the garden in a jungle: two men come across it, one goes "there must be a gardener". The other goes "No, it's a coincidence. There can't possibly be a gardener in the jungle." So they decide to wait a day to see if a gardener comes. No-one arrives. "Ah", says the man "but the gardener obviously comes once a week" - so they wait a week. Still no gardner "Well he obviously is invisible" - so they set up nets - "well he;s obviously small enough to fit through the nets" ad infitium. The point is, whatever you say to a Christian fundemenalist such as the ones on this thread, they will still keep on going on with the same point, whilst refusing to take into consideration evidence of any kind. Therefore what they say is meaningless.

Also, on the subject of hell: most of you seem to have got your definition out of a Medieval book of theology. The modern Christian interpretation of Hell is being without God (whatever that means) and heaven is being with God (whatever that means). It makes no logical sense to say that God loves everyone and forgives everyone if you can suffer for eternity for a mere mistake.

Yeah those are good calls. Sure, there's a ****load of crap in the holy books but there are also a lot of facts. and commandments. Maybe it's from a guy that was always beaten and stuff, and said: 'thy shall not kill!' Then his friends always went to the hookers and he had no money for it, and he was jealous, so he said: 'Thy shall not have sex outside of marriage' annd on and on... that could also be it. I mean, it's so long ago, how are we going to check?

Originally posted by Gabez
I wish you guys did Philosophy of Religion like I do. Here are a few thoughts to make an theist’s head spin:

The Judeo-Christian God is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving. BUT:

If God is all-powerful, can He create an object that's too heavy for Him to lift?
If He is timeless, then how can He think or act outside of time, because time is necessary for thought and act?
If God is all knowing, then that means He knows what you will do tomorrow – and if He knows that, then there is no free will, because you are not free to do what you will do tomorrow. If there is no free will then we are just robots under God.
If God is all-loving, then why is there evil in this world? Either he is loving but unable to fix evil (so not all powerful) or all-powerful but unwilling to fix evil (not all loving).
If God can do anything, can He create a square circle?
Why did God allow the Hollocaust?
If God created the universe, then what created him? If we just say that He is neccesary and not contingent, then this is a move that is illogical. It would make more sense to say that the universe itself is neccesary, and to leave God out of it. Therefore God makes no logical sense.

Also, on the subject of hell: most of you seem to have got your definition out of a Medieval book of theology. The modern Christian interpretation of Hell is being without God (whatever that means) and heaven is being with God (whatever that means). It makes no logical sense to say that God loves everyone and forgives everyone if you can suffer for eternity for a mere mistake. Religious people have an answer to everything. For example, evil is because of the devil, and the holocaust was because the jews in europe sinned, and god was punishing them :rolleyes:

Okay, I updated my post with more stuff in the time it took you to reply. Go read it again.

The devil is a poor reason for evil. If you must know, then the only philisophically satisfying answer that I know of to the problem of evil is that God wants us to be perfect, and we can only become perfect through free will, therefore God can't intervene with our affairs, therefore evil is allowed, but eventaully everyone will be made perfect and the end will justify the means.

Problems with this: even if we're all perfect in the end, it still doesn't justufy a naked boy of six being ripped apart by hounds whilst his mother watches. There's no reason for that. Problem #2 is that if God is all powerful, surely He can intervine without ruining our free will (debatable, but I won't go into that). Ditto for the Holocaust - that does not sound like the act of an all-loving God, and seriously contradicts itself.

Doomgiver: I see the Bible as a description of ethics rather than an explanation to life the universe and everything (to nick a book title).

Then how come the Almighty One can't make something too heavy for him to lift? Answer: It's impossible. But he's all powerful, so he can do everything, even that, but also he can't... it's driving me nuts when i start to think about it.

I also had my questions about he all loving part. I say my religion is the best - starwars! It's easy:

1: You shall not turn to the dark side.
2: You shall learn the code of the sith.
3: You will make offers to GL in the form of money for starwars episode three.
4: Otherwise you will go to trekkieland!
5: You shall always try to turn the nonbelievers.
6: There can be only two. No that's a silly rule. Well, then i'm done! And christians need an entire bible for that. I need three movies and five sentences.

Heh, yeah Star Wars is great.

To get back on topic: Either China or Europe. Or both.

Edit: Russia's another possibility for the next 100 years.

Just noticed this: "The Bible is being proven to be true every day." - er, no. Bible prophecies are hardly an exact science. And it's called the Euro, not the "Europe Dollar". The Euro. EURO.

Also I just thought of a problem with the concept of heaven. If everyone there is good, and there's no evil, then there's no distinction between the two, and thus there's no free will. If I throw someone out of the window in Heaven it won't hurt them - if I make them a cup of tea it will have the same effect. Therefore everything becomes meaningless, and thus our choices become meaningless, so there is in effect no free will, because our choices won't mean anything. It's like a man who decides not to go out of a room, not knowing that the door is locked. He has made the choice, but it is an illusion - as a matter of fact he has no free will.

Howzabout the EU?

EDIT: That topic dissapeared since, what, the second post?

Hee, yeah, but I thought it was an interesting topic, so I wanted to bring it back. And when I said "Europe" I meant the EU.

Oh. I missed that part.

About the heaven: You're friggin right! Mayeb it's about the philosify (I know that's spelled wrong) of 'good guys stay good guys' but it must be very boring there and it's only a matter of time before evryone there goes postal and gets banned to hell, wich is a bit sucky, since that could've also happened without years of boredom. Heck i can't even stand one day of boredom! And the onlyother option is mind control, wich is also kinda sucky.

i wouldnt mind if they called it euro dollar. i mean they also call it euro cents..

but thats just a name anyways..


and i think the reason why the eu was formed is mainly economic. to say it is a sign of the evil is plain .. err.. sad, y'know?

wow, I'm gone for a few hours and look how much has been posted since. whew. ok. doomgiver, in order to get to heaven, you must admit that you are a sinner, believe that jesus is God's sona nd died on the cross so that you can go to heaven, and confess your faith. that means tell someone that you are a christian. ok, Hell is eternal seperation from God, buts thats only part of it. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Great Pain. and pain is also phycological, is a girlfriend dumps you atfer a year, you feel pain, but I have no idea, nor do I want to know, the kind of pain there will be in hell. and no, heaven isnt going to be boring, because there is free will, there is just no sin. you cant do anything wrong nor have any desire to. I cant even imagine it, its beyond my capabilities. And heaven is immense, it goes on forever, not just time-wise, but it just is so BIG. I mean, it fits every believer from all eternity in there. It's gonna be huge. And a few have tried to make a star wars religion, but it cant be, because its not true. George is the creator of it and he himself has said its not real and he doesnt like it when the people try to make on because its just a movie (and books and such) And there's too much to go back and read right now, but re-post your questions in shorter posts, and I'll try to answerr them.

You obviously didn't read anything I posted, yaebginn, and I'm certainly not going to "re-post my questions in shorter posts" for your convinience.

What you are saying is philisophically meanignless (see the anology of the garden in the jungle I used). People make logical points and you just go "Ah, but God is good" and stuff like that. You can't make that move. If you respond with a statement you picked up from the Bible, then it is meaningless, because you have no expereience of what it actually means. You've just remembered it from Sunday School. Furthermore, you say WHAT the God of classical theism is like, but you don't say WHY or HOW. THerefore your post is meaningless - I might as well just say "Bob is good". It doesn't mean anything. You may think it does, but it doesn't.