This is not a flame post or an I hate raven post for I think they have done a fine job with JA.

I for one am pleased.

If i have a small complaint its about the use of the graphics engine.

heres an example of a clone trooper done in UT new graphic engine and have to ask myself why? if the technology is capable of more today?

http://www.planethalflife.com/polycount/info/ut2003/clonetrooper/clonetrooper.shtml)

again this is not a complaint post

its more jus curiosity as to why the chooice was made to stick with the same engine instead of the more advanced stuff thats out there now.

Ok that trooper looks kick ass but i think it was because they were used to it and could create the game without learning everything again. Hope that answers your question.

I see there being a couple of reasons:

- Development time in general

and

- Development time in specific.

By "Development time in general", I mean that the first real UT-engine game isn't yet out - that will be Deus Ex: Invisible War in late November. They have been working together for quite a while, and the original DX was also Unreal based. When an engine is being developed, it takes considerable time for your team to develop programming 'chops' with the new tools.

By "Development time in specific" I mean that since Jedi Outcast was fully coded in the Q3 engine, so that changing engines would mean recoding the lightsaber system, force powers, and on and on and on.

I don't think either of those worked in favor of Raven getting a game out in a reasonable amount of time. We have heard that Republic Commando will be a Unreal Engine game next year. We have no idea what or when any followers to the Jedi games will be.

Mike

thanks txa that seems like a pretty reasonable explanation for the choice.

I wonder if devs have started taking into account the shelf life of the technology they've chosen to run with.

I mean it would prolly be easier to port Jk over to the DOOM 3 engine.

Which would blow away UT graphics by far.

But the same reasoning applies that we wouldnt see the next incarnation for three to four years.

P.S.

The next incarnation of Tribes is gonna be a UT based game.

Raven uses Id engines. It's as simple as that.

Which is why Quake IV, being developed by Raven in partnership with Id, is on the new Doom engine.

Which is why future Raven games will be on the new Doom engine.

If you want to see a Star Wars game using Unreal tech, you had best look to Lucasarts, who are currently making Republic Commando. They might decide to make the next Jedi Knight game (if there is one) themselves, if they can train up enough people on the Unreal tech. to develop two games on it simultaneously.

But you'd have to ask why they would ditch Raven, who made a great game in JO, and an enjoyable game in JA (although IMHO it has flaws and a format that is growing at bit stale).

Having said that, I'd love to see some of the old JK team rounded up under one roof and told to let loose on a new Jedi Knight...using an up-to-date modern engine.

Well this is not a UT engine fan thread I was merely using that model as an example of what is out today.

Can't wait for Quake4 though any ETA on that?

engines aren't just graphics. The q3 engine is WAY fewer bugs than ut2k3. The q3 engine's features make a lot of sense while ut2k3 is missing some especially in the area of server configuration. Plus no matter how much detail you take out of ut2k3 it still runs far slower than jk3.

The Unreal engine is actually older than the Q3 engine, and that model doesn't look all that spectactular really compared to JA.

First off all, the only thing about it is that it's all shiny, that can be done with shaders. Second, look at how that armor is all "stretchy" as if it were cloth rather than metallic or plastic armor. His proportions look off, giving him a more "cartoony" look than the typical JA skins. Compare the clone troopers made for the AOTC TC project even and tell me I'm wrong. I'm not saying it's a bad model, but there's better out there, that look more like the character it's trying to portray.

The reason Raven choose the Q3 engine is because they are very experienced with it. They've done Elite Force (the first third party game made with the Q3 engine if I'm not mistaken), Soldier of Fortune II and Jedi Outcast.

Doing Jedi Outcast also gave them a base to work on with the series. Doing all those force powers and melee combat (which was NOT in the game to begin with) takes a lot of effort and time. They had to build a huge amount of stuff onto an engine that was basically just a run and gun arena only shooter.

Like Mike Gummelt said, if they had gone with a new engine that was truly "groundbreaking" you would have had to wait 3-5 years for the game rather than 1 year like you did. Heck, Doom3 and Half Life 2 aren't even out yet, and how long have those fans had to wait for a sequel?

How many games based on the Unreal II engine have been made so far? I guarantee you, had Raven used the Unreal2 engine to make JA, you'd still be waiting for the game.

And by the time it was released you'd look at it and said "why didn't they use a new engine, this looks so dated and old."

That's just the nature of graphics technology.

Instead of getting all upset about the graphics not being the latest thing, I do what a great number of gamers do and point out that gameplay is far more important. A pretty game that isn't fun or is boring or buggy won't get played as much as a stable game that's fun and complex. And which game would most people rather buy, a game that looks average and gets 60 fps, or a game that looks great and get 10 fps?

Most people that have a problem with JA have attacked it's gameplay, because at that heart.... gameplay is king.

And yes, unlike LucasArts, Raven is a smaller company with less resources. They can't afford to double their development cycles just so they can win the "prettiest game of the year" award.

You know that was actually an aterthought that that model wasn't an official model.
But still shows what the modelers are doing with their engine.

You also have to remember that the root cause of alot of performance problems is
"Bloat Ware XP".

No need to get defensive Kurgan.

BUt I do point out that while gameplay is important this is a visually driven field
after all we are looking at a screen.


I know its hard to stay leading edge on every front but for those that do lies the reward and riches of establshing new precedents which are only qualified by huge sales numbers.

No offense was taken, I honestly think their line of reasoning makes sense and I honestly do think that Clone Trooper model, while good, is inferior to the ones I've seen made for the Q3 engine (namely for JK2).

That isn't to say it couldn't end up being better, but we've had star wars models made for about every game on the face of the earth, that alone doesn't mean that that would make a better star wars game engine. Unless of course you're saying that you'd be happy with UT2k3 if it just had Star Wars characters in it.

I'm sure Unreal tech would make an excellent platform for a JK game, it would just take them a few years more to get used to the engine and add in all the stuff that isn't there (ie: a robust melee combat engine, a force system, etc).

I'm looking forward to Republic Commando as well (even though we know next to nothing about it right now, save one cinematic), but it's a long ways off.

Wow that does look pretty intense.

I say we are about 5-7 years away from photo realistic game graphics.

Put on a VR helmet and step into the Matrix.

I am the chosen one.:D

There are several reasons why Raven would continue using the same engine.


It's cheap, they might not have even had to buy another full license
Existing base of JO to add on to
Relatively easy to add new graphic capabilities, as seen in JA
Support for mods, old JO projects can be easily ported, modders aren't forced to learn a new engine


When I played through JO, it looked pretty good at the time. MP was just an eye sore, because it was so buggy. JA's SP looks fantastic, and the MP is pleasant to look instead of making me want to gouge my eyes out. Simple fact is that the game looks simply great, not incredible or revolutionary, but great. It gets the job done, and it's very pleasant to look at because the art is properly designed, which is much more important than the engine itself. Bad artists on a good engine mean an ugly game.

And as for that Unreal tech model, it's not very impressive. Nothing that wasn't done for JO, or could be done in Q3.

I must say I was more impressed with UT (the original) than Q3.

At the time, Q3 had slightly better graphics but the game feature wise was pretty bare bones. A lot of that had to do with the fact that the UT authors had plenty of time to refine the engine from Unreal, whereas Id was starting from scratch with a brand new engine that had higher system requirements.

The same will probably apply here. I wouldn't expect the new FPS games coming out with brand new engines to be as feature rich and stable as the ones coming out for established engines right now.

And no, I don't use XP (I agree, it's bloatware I don't need), but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that Q3 is going to run better on today's systems than Doom3. ; )

You don't have to agree with me on the models of course, but compare for yourself:

http://www.aotctc.com/site/modules.php?set_albumName=album04&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php) (Jedi Outcast)

vs.

http://www.planethalflife.com/polycount/info/ut2003/clonetrooper/clonetrooper.shtml) (UT2k3)

Not to mention the brutal boost in system requirements... Jedi Academy looks just fine with my Geforce4 MX on a 1.3ghz. It runs fairly smooth, and looks anything but bad. It's fine just the way it is, for this generation of gaming PCs anyways :P

Well anybody that doesnt expect to upgrade hardware in order to run Doom3 wellshouldn't expect to be able to run a playable game.


Im lookin at prolly going p4 4.something by the time the game is out with all the hyper this n that.

I was thinkinof sticin with Radeon but see it havin some problems so far.

Then again by that time next year they should have more stable batches of cards off the production lines.

Well it is a better rendered model but you see the obvous res differences between the two.

Raven will make use of the astounding shading capabililty in the Doom 3 engine for the next incarnation of Jedi Knight and give us models with real intricate depth and face detail.

I think we have hit the apex of 3d animation as is obvious in JA cause the faces are pretty detailed already.

I think the next phase is going for 3d realism.

I love the journey 3d animation has taken over the years in filling out this digital universe thats been created.

Kinda like bringin the lens into focus to reveal all the detail thats always been there.:D

Actually I downloaded a Clonetrooper model for JK2 that was made some time ago that has the same "shiny plastic" shader effect as the UT2k3 version, but I think it's done a lot better.

It actually looks more shiny rather than a guy with a big plastic bag around his armor. ; )

I'll see if I can find some screenshots of it to put up, maybe later.

I agree, if the modeler for the UT2k3 engine had better skills he could probably do a better job, but this isn't the best example to use to show off the "superiority" of using that engine vs. Q3 tech (as represented by JK2).

And remember that isn't even JA... which can have higher poly models than JK2.

Like Mike Gummelt said, if they had gone with a new engine that was truly "groundbreaking" you would have had to wait 3-5 years for the game rather than 1 year like you did.

Hell yes ! I might get run over a bus by the time it takes to do the above said..... Games are big business nowadays, and lucasarts has shown that it is smart enough to adopt the latest and greatest technologies available to promote their almighty starwars license.

Plus Ive replayed most of the JO SP maps with my JA character, that is GREAT !

I loved JA too, and I'm glad we didnt have to wait ages for it !

MTFBWYA

And who's to say that the new game that could have been JA would have been all that great since it would be a experimetal phase for Raven for a new engine and having to re-implement all their techniques into the engine, and learn new things to do which would probably have their share of bugs on at least one release before it is polished up and tweaked. Course I also read somewhere that JA would probably be the last star wars game on the Q3 engine, since the newer engines are offering potential that the Q3 Engine offered when it was first made.

And who's to say that the new game that could have been JA would have been all that great since it would be a experimetal phase for Raven...

Exactly. Why mess with a winning formula. SW gaming fans : Remember "Rebellion", "Force Commander" those real-time strategy goof ups...... I'm glad they stuck with q3 for the JO sequel. Sure, in the future they'll have to move on, but that's the future ! I think q3/JA has one good expansion pack left in it !

MTFBWYA

well i agree and also add that when the time comes to port over to a new engine alot of things dont have to be reinvented just adapted.

Originally posted by Astrotoy7
Exactly. Why mess with a winning formula. SW gaming fans : Remember "Rebellion", "Force Commander" those real-time strategy goof ups...... I'm glad they stuck with q3 for the JO sequel. Sure, in the future they'll have to move on, but that's the future ! I think q3/JA has one good expansion pack left in it !




i totally agree and i do hope they make an expansion pack in the near future, before attempting to dev a game using a new engine.


and that UT clone trooper, IMO, isn't as realistic as the models in JA or even JO for that matter.

Rumors I heard say Raven is planning on making JK3 with the DooM 3 engine, heavily modified for saber combat and such. Then again, these are just rumors.

To Me Game play is what counts the most.. and I think most people agree. well the numbers still playing Counter Strike will agree :) I like JO and am in no rush to buy JA (most prob wait for Xmas as that way some one else pays for me to play :p ) I have been playing Vietcong, though its a buggy game I find myself loading it up still... maybe in a few more patch's it will be a great game.

not trying to go off topic but how many of you played C&C Renegade. as I thought it was a well made game as in the in game features and the out of game features (as in being able to look up online what rank you are and all that) the only thing that let the game down to me was it being quite choppy in the graphics. at the time of me playing my system was not that far out of date. yet with a geforce 2 64 meg and a 1gig proc, plus cable con it seem to still be quite choppy.

also posted in this thread was some one saying about the Next Jedi Knight Game OMG this one only just out and your looking to the next hehehehehehehe

also wile thinking about Graphics you also have to take in to account that Game companies want to stay with how fast technology is moving, they also want to keep a medium of what plays have at home. believe it or not most game players cant afford to keep buying new computers. so when they make games they try to keep it within a min spec as well as what the highest spec as well.

ok sorry for the rant but wanted to share my thoughts on the many points posted in the thread :)