First of all i apologize if i dont speak english very well ( italy here )
SECOND OF ALL : ACCORDING with the post of "ILLEGALLITY" where u accuse people to speak about an illegal version of the game, i would like to inform that ALL this post is based on WHAT'VE SEEN FROM VIDEOS that has been published on the LUCAS site, a VIDEO of E3 and a lot of info about different players ( that's legal ), ALL the rest of the post is just based about MY PERSONAL OPINION considering JEDI OUTCAST and trasling it on JA.
that's all :
i've heard a lot of info about JA, i've seen some videos and spoke with people who have seen it!
That's my opinion and i hope u'll agree with that!
JA is a really funny game.. just a JO with a lot of improvements!
but there are i think mistakes that will never push JA at level of HIGH competition games like CS.. Q3 UT2003 ecc.ecc.
That's why :
the SIEGE mod is funny.. but if u take as example RTCW, it's less tatics, less strategic.. more spamms.. people run and jump all the map ( try to jump and get over your cover in RTCW and u'll be massacrate by gunz ).
That's why the q3 engine is not an engine for STRATEGIC game. but for skilled high reflex games.
Right now there are 3 ways to play JA ( as JO before )
SIEGE : funny way to play but i dont personally think there can be a good championship ladder about this mod.. that's too fast, lack of strategy couse also a SCOUT can escape from a jedi! he just jump for all the map making him impossible to hit! and all the game will be a "JUMP HERE.. JUMP THERE" shooting at everything around u
FFA with gunz and force : Well it is a really funny way to play but.. sincerly do you think someone would be interested in making a competition in a game where each player can jump 20 meters tall... run 3 times a human...firing with concussion,rocketlauncher, rifles, pistols. detonator while using force powers????
i personally think it's TOO MUCH :P
DUEL NO FORCE : classic duel with saber vs the enemy, it's maybe the ONLY way to organize something with JA... the only bad thing is that at long duels becomes annoying, couse just people stand in front of the enemy making everythime the same 2 or 3 good moves.. hoping to hit him without being hitten!
____
What i suggest is ( as done for JO ) :
study the game and realize a mod that will give support for TEAM GAME, like classes game more similiar then COUNTERSTRIKE.. exactly as the SIEGE but also for TEAM GAMES!
game slower.. weapons more deadly
then for duels the BEST WAY i realized to play the game is to play 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 with full forces but with balanced powers:
grip
drain
lightning
push
pull
at max 2 level!
this drastically change the game in a better way. making importat using the right strategy and at the same time having a good skill in combact!
___
Listen me when i say that the JO big mistake was to be TOO SPAMM and TOO QUAKE 3 style.. without a good balanced of classes.. a good balanced of weapons/force/saber! ( basically it HASNT any balance )
___
i hope that's will not repeat with JA or it will be necessary another mod to adjust the game!
Just i'm NOT SPEAKING for funny games.. the game is preatty funny, i'm speaking to USE JA to make high level championship.. and maybe also let it be part of World cyber games!
***JUST i ADD that i've NEVER SEEN the game...so i could be wrong but..., ALL THIS POSTS is based about what i've seen from videos and what people told me about!.. just i realized that JA is preatty similiar to JO in most things! that's why i spoke like that, JO suffered with this things.. i hope JA will not suffer too***
cya guy!
if u have any purpose contact me via icq :35433605
cya!
No, the games modes are: Seige, FFA, CTF, TEAM FFA, DUEL, Power duel and thats all. i hope JA will not suffer too*** What are you talking about???? JO was a best seller so JA wont fail.
No comment...because I can't even read what you wrote...
Well it is a really funny way to play but.. sincerly do you think someone would be interested in making a competition in a game where each player can jump 20 meters tall... run 3 times a human...firing with concussion,rocketlauncher, rifles, pistols. detonator while using force powers????
i personally think it's TOO MUCH :P
well i guess the jedi knight series if only for good gamers then
I think you said the JK games are no good for competetive play? That's totally not true. There was some competetive play for JK, and quite a bit for JO.
Translation? Please? I'm with Emon on this I can't even read his posts!!
he wants the game slower and more similar to CS with less damaging weapons and less jumping more like bf1942 where you duck most of the time.
Take a look at tribes 2. its fast yet more strategic than 90% of the games. ITs about aerial combat and midair shots yet the team play is clearly there.
I myself prefer a faster paced game and wish that ja is faster than jo
I see now. Ok but BF1942 did keep you ducking and I don't want that in JA.
Hard to deside.
no guys i didnt mean that!
i played tribes 2, rtcw, q3, i played also them in italian and european competitions... so please i'm polite and i'm not offending anyone so if u wanna answer please be quite and polite :
What i mean is that if u wanna consider JK as a good game.. IT IS!
if u wanna consider JK as a game where u must use skill, reflex, good time and aim... IT IS!
if u wanna consider JK as a funny game where u have a lot of light effects, a lot of powers and big weapons crushing the world around u... IT IS!
if u wanna consdier JK has a STRATEGIC game.. or as a game that could be compared as BEST WORLD GAMES and so gain a place inside "high competition levels" world.. IT IS NOT!
___
i personally consider JK as a game JUST for duels! couse it's the best thing it has but modality like TFFA with weapons, will be just a " have a lot of frag" game style.. will never climb the ladder of "popularity"
____
personally maybe u think i'm just a common guys speaking about something doesnt know with non sense!
modestly i played jk at european ladder levels, tribes 2 at european CASH tournaments and several games sponsorized by LEADER - SAMSUNG and NGI for World cyber games!
I'm not an idiot who is not able to find good and bad things in a game! and that's what i fear!
I belive in jk3 ( if not i would not been waiting for it ) but around me i see incoming games like HL 2, Tribes 2.. Quake 4!
and they are PLANNED to be popular multyplayer games.. WILL JA BE at their same level???
i hope!
for competitions i mean a game where BIG COMPANIES organize cash tournaments around the world, with players invitated from different countries or cities to play for money! that's happen with most popular games.. and there is a reason! couse they OFFER BIH competitions!
i hope JA will be the same! but JO didnt at all. just in part but not at all!
So you're saying JK games are not high level stategic based? Okay, they aren't supposed to be.
Originally posted by AV4T4R
JA is a really funny game.. just a JO with a lot of improvements!
Of course they are very similar, because they both use the same basic engine, with, as you say, improvements in the JA version. Personally I don't see that this will have any bearing on the game's success.
but there are i think mistakes that will never push JA at level of HIGH competition games like CS.. Q3 UT2003 ecc.ecc.
Well, the games you mention have all had higher levels of investment to keep them successful in the online arena. Q3, UT and UT2K3 were all specifically designed for online play, and have been continuously developed and marketed with this in mind. They all fall into the more classic 'run-and'gun' type FPS mould.
The Jedi Knight series has always been a different breed of animal, specifically because it mixes in a strong element of melee combat, and a set of Force powers that can fundamentally change the style of play. A key factor that you need to keep in mind is that not everyone enjoys melee combat. It requires a different skill set, and yes, a different set of strategies and tactics to get the best out of it. In essence, most FPS players can pick up Q3 and UT2K3, and get into the guts of the game without too much problem. Not everyone can adapt to the style of play in the Jedi Knight games, in my view, and although the community support is very strong for the game, it may not achieve the mainstream appeal of the other titles you mention.
the SIEGE mod is funny.. but if u take as example RTCW, it's less tatics, less strategic.. more spamms.. people run and jump all the map ( try to jump and get over your cover in RTCW and u'll be massacrate by gunz ).
That's why the q3 engine is not an engine for STRATEGIC game. but for skilled high reflex games.
SIEGE : funny way to play but i dont personally think there can be a good championship ladder about this mod.. that's too fast, lack of strategy couse also a SCOUT can escape from a jedi! he just jump for all the map making him impossible to hit! and all the game will be a "JUMP HERE.. JUMP THERE" shooting at everything around u
Well, I must have missed something, because I haven't seen any article, review, or interview that says Scouts can jump all over the place without getting caught, or indeed, fragged. I haven't seen any evidence that says there will be no strategy involved in this game mode either. We know that the Dark Side scout will have access to a jetpack...and the Light side a cloaking device. Hopefully this class has appropriate weaknesses, as well as appropriate strengths. The aim of the game is not simply to frag the scouts...but to achieve team-based objectives. As far as jumping everywhere goes...I assume that only the Jedi (Dark or Light) will be able to use the Force in Siege mode, so only they should be able to Force Jump around the map. That's not to say they will be indestructable.
FFA with gunz and force : Well it is a really funny way to play but.. sincerly do you think someone would be interested in making a competition in a game where each player can jump 20 meters tall... run 3 times a human...firing with concussion,rocketlauncher, rifles, pistols. detonator while using force powers????
i personally think it's TOO MUCH :P
That is the whole point of the game - that you can do all of those things. And that takes me back to my previous point that not everyone is willing to adapt to that style of play, which may explain why JO/JA will not become more mainstream and appear at events like Cybergames. Besides, for competitions, there is always the option of allowing only certain Force powers, guns, etc., on maps in order to achieve a perceived better balance. After all, this is what Epic did with UT2K3 for competitions - they revamped it slightly specifically for competition matches.
DUEL NO FORCE : classic duel with saber vs the enemy, it's maybe the ONLY way to organize something with JA... the only bad thing is that at long duels becomes annoying, couse just people stand in front of the enemy making everythime the same 2 or 3 good moves.. hoping to hit him without being hitten!
That's largely down to player choice...not a restriction of the game itself. People are free to choose whichever strategies suit them to succeed in combat - just like some people exclusively use rocket launchers or rail guns in Quake 3. People will obviously try to get the best weapons and master their use to win a game. That is what competition is about. But players can still adopt different strategies, and utilise different weapons and skillsets that suit them.
study the game and realize a mod that will give support for TEAM GAME, like classes game more similiar then COUNTERSTRIKE.. exactly as the SIEGE but also for TEAM GAMES!
game slower.. weapons more deadly
Now you have just contradicted yourself. You said above that Quake 3 was all about twitch reflexes and fast gameplay...and now you're asking for slower gameplay like Counter-Strike. You can't have it both ways. Lots of people enjoy playing Counter-Strike because of it's slower pace, and perceived extra realism - but the same holds true for long-standing fans of the Jedi Knight community. I for one like the faster style of play, and the freedom of choice between ranged, melee and Force combat.
And anyway, the Siege mode is a Team Game - it's designed from the ground up for team play.
then for duels the BEST WAY i realized to play the game is to play 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 with full forces but with balanced powers:
grip
drain
lightning
push
pull
at max 2 level!
this drastically change the game in a better way. making importat using the right strategy and at the same time having a good skill in combact!
You're entitled to your opinion...but that doesn't mean you're right. I too would like to see 2v2 and 3v3 Duels going on, but that's not to say that is the only way forward to make it appeal to more players seeking to enter competition ladders. Not everyone wants to Duel alongside another player - some people prefer 1v1.
Anyway, I'm going to hold off judgement about whether JA will be successful or not until I've actually played the game modes on offer. After a while we should get a better understanding of what needs to be tweaked, and more importantly, what needs to be left alone to make the game an enjoyable experience in the longer term.
The only thing I really, really don't want to see are any more community-dividing patches that mess with fundamental gameplay. People need to give the game a chance, and learn all the new moves, and try out all the different strategies that will no doubt come to light, before making an outcry for changes to the basic mechanics because they keep losing...
And I think that's all I have to say...
Dang beat me at it StormHammer. ;)
k let's see the game and let's make our best to let it become great ;)
I think I get what he's saying and if I'm correct, I agree.
A lot of other games like Tribes, RTCW, Counter-Strike etc. are looked upon as having "professional level competition" due to the heavy involvement from players in the "competitive community" those respective games have.
You see large cash prize tournaments for those games because there is such a large competitive player base in them to warrant it.
Jedi Outcast was never really looked upon as a "serious" game to compete in by a lot of hardcore gamers because the involvement in league and ladder play was very small, even when the game was still new and the player base was huge.
A member of our clan has been pushing cal
http://www.caleague.com/) to support JA and it looks like it's a go at this point.
twl
www.teamwarfare.com) will be supporting JA again and due to a large demand they will even be doing 2v2 ladders.
=)
Now it's pretty much up to the players to keep these leagues and ladders alive by actually signing up for them and competing on them.
The ladders and leagues for JK2 pretty much all flopped because it was hard as hell to get people to go compete on them; I hope this won't happen again.
You mention about jumping really high, and using BFG-like guns, and it NOT being for competitive play.. Did we forget about a classic called DUKE NUKEM 3D... That was one of many Ladder games that is still played. Jedi Outcast in some respects is the same ordeal, just better graphics, and set in a universe where there is a FOrce and can use a lightsaber, which kick ass as we all know.
Lets just all agree that JA will be an awesome game, with a healthy mod community and awesome SP & MP :D
Well IMHO, if we want JA to be a competative game, it's up to US, the community, to make it so.
So all you mod makers and all you competative gamers, go for it. Buy this game when it comes out, play and promote the hell out of it, and we'll see what happens. And you mod makers out there, make some good mods too (not pathetic admin mods or endless saber mods and duel maps, but how about solid balanced CTF and Siege maps, and that sort of thing?).
Play competatively, think competatively, and it'll happen, if enough people do it.
; )
That's how its done!
Originally posted by Kurgan
Well IMHO, if we want JA to be a competative game, it's up to US, the community, to make it so.
Play competatively, think competatively, and it'll happen, if enough people do it.
; )
That's how its done!
I totally agree - up to a point. We could have a very strong and competitive community, but without ongoing support and investment from the developer/publisher, it may not become more mainstream, or feature in World Cyber Games, which is what AV4T4R seems to be concerned about.
Epic had to take a lot on board to revamp UT2K3 for this kind of world-standing competitive play, because the vanilla version was not viewed seriously enough by the majority of competitive players. Epic kept pushing, and were very proactive in getting the game accepted at the higher levels where cash prizes come into the equation.
So I really don't feel that if the hardcore community gets behind the game that JA will automatically become recognised as a competitive game that should be taken seriously in terms of tournaments where cash prizes are on offer. Lucasarts especially need to use their marketing clout to push the MP side of the game in this direction, and lobby for it's inclusion at the 'higher levels'. Was JA on show at QuakeCon? And if not...why not. To garner more support, it needs to be pushed at every opportunity as a viable platform for competitive play.
The community can only do so much...IMHO
Originally posted by StormHammer
Was JA on show at QuakeCon? And if not...why not. To garner more support, it needs to be pushed at every opportunity as a viable platform for competitive play.
The community can only do so much...IMHO I know JKII was at QuakeCon last year - I remember seeing a picture. However, I think that some of the most successful modes - things that make 'war games' like CS, RtCW, MoHAA and SpearHead, ET, and so on more popular for online play - are the objective based team play. CTF maybe, but tug-of -war, and infiltration/elimination and things like that. JKII just didn't have those, and somewhere between the patches and the SC/ASC BS JKII settled into a very respectable but not world-class community of between 1000 - 2000 players at any given time.
I see Siege as Raven/LA attempting to provide that missing element, and I also assume (hope) it will be immune from so much of the 'wh0r3z / l4m3rz' BS ... THAT will be a boon to the online JA community. But it also depends on the maps that come with the game, and are there early on. If Siege mode doesn't get traction in a larger community by the time some other MP games hit (perhaps HL2 or Halo) come out, JA will settle into a smaller community as well.
Mike
Originally posted by AV4T4R
That's why the q3 engine is not an engine for STRATEGIC game.
WTF? RtCW and ET are both strategic games built on a modified Q3 engine.
And the engine has nothing to do with strategic gameplay. Gameplay at all for that matter. WTF indeed.
Beside the fact that JA could be a really good game; i play in a community called NGI that organize stuff for WCG and manage players involved in Starcraft, Warcraft, Fifa, Quake etc.etc..... so i can talk with people, enjoy at events where the "leaders" talks about what they need in these games!
so the MAIN concept that grow up from the discussion is :
a game is competitive if:
it offers a LOT of different solution to solve a problem :
it's not only incentered in the spamm and the "good aim" but in tatics, in planning a strategy or other things!
if it has a LARGE community that support it and play it!
Now let's make this example... let's image QUAKE3 if IT WOULD NOT have popularity :
People buy the game, and they see that's all u have to do is to jump jump jump and fire before the enemy! OK it's funny at the beginning.
Now after 2 months people still play on servers fragging a lot, just jumping, chaning weapons, running for the map!
after 4 months we will start seeing bests players.. players that win more often then others.. stronger players etc.etc!
Now slowly the game will adapt at this situation.. so the BEST players will be the ones able to JUMP, changing weapons in air.. AIM u with a perfect shot.. and recover health while fightning!
Now this game will BORE people that would not like to play ONLY this way! couse it can be FUNNY or COREGRAPHIC at first times.. but slowly after 5..6..7 months it will annoy players couse it's everytime the SAME thing... just JUMP, FIRE.. who better aim.. more often win!
Considering a game like RTCW where if u make an error. u DIE.. and often the good coordination with you other team mates let u win or let u loose!
Imaging a game like tribes where your PERFECT time coordination between ATTACKS. DEFENDERS and CAPPER allow u to gain the victory... it mix : AIM, REFLEX with good strategy, voice control system, perfect team coordination : BASICALLY it MIX a lot of concept that INVOLVE people to play couse they dont see everytime the "SAME GAME".. but something more interesting, with a lot of different roles, with a lot of different way to play, with competitions and challanges!
If u see good things in JO, surely it has a LOT of good aspects!
but for example if u take DUEL NO FORCE of JO, sincerly i played it and i can ASSURE u i have a large experience in that... most ot time people just move strafing all the time at 2 or 3 metres of range just SWINING the saber in the air hoping to hit them or making some special move like LOUNGE that most of time has advantages on other moves!
Now.. assuming that as u have seen the MOST popular way to play JK is DUEL NO FORCE.. there should be a reason right??
The reason is that a COMMON server is just PURE SPAMM game... without any control of the game. just RUN AND SHOT with your flachette cannon and spamm all around with drain and lightning!
THAT'S CAN BE FUNNY.. INTERESTING... ENJOINABLE.. but surely without future! or the future there could be only for a small community that like this kind of gametype... but it will never grows up!
Just balancing a game should not be so difficult :
Image if JA would have :
Characther slow as RTCW style
Really dangerous weapons.. i mean u should GET COVER from them.. and not avoid shoots just jumping or rolling for the map
if the game should be more incentred on team play or.. also in DUEL concept.. in a good managing of strategic elements, maps, mixed with good aim and skill::: it will be different
BUT JO IS :
weapons barely hit, just couse the COMMON soldier can roll, jump , run as SUPERMAN, carry 9 type of different weapons, 5 items, and 3 different detonators ( WHERE THE F... can he carrys all these items O_O?? )... using all force powers... using a lightsaber without penalities.
if the most common FF tatics in the game WOULD NOT BE just activate ABSORB, SPEED. JUMP and run for the map shooting missiles launchers and flachette cannon vs other players at 400 kph speed and making jump 20 meteres tall for all the map!
MAYBE it should be mooooooreee effective on communities..
DAMN it's called JEDI KNIGHT but did u never seen a JEDI or a Bounty hunter or a STORMTROOPER fight like JO style? it's not a JEDI it's a SUPER-TECNOLOGICAL-GENETIC MODIFICATION OF A JEDI.... the most IDIOT JO characther is STRONGER then YODA!
damn it's a non sense :P
i think the game can be cool couse DUEL mod is intersting but right now it cant compete with other games ( and i mean IT CAN capture the interestes of communities ) couse it totally WRONG the gamestyle! it's just a SPAMM FUNNY COREOGRAPHIC game! but not a game that offer competition.
As u said there could be a MOD that will modify all of this! but belive IF COUTNERSTRIKE or WARCRAFT III or RTCW are so famouse is not only couse the companies spent a lot of money on them!
but couse RTCW hasnt players that run and act and fight as a JK characther! it's ALL slower, more dangerous, more difficult to do. u should FIRST use your mind THEN act.. in JK i can JUMP happy all around the map shooting around me!... if i do that in other games i'll immediatly DIE!
let's consider this :P
Originally posted by AV4T4R
so the MAIN concept that grow up from the discussion is :
a game is competitive if:
it offers a LOT of different solution to solve a problem :
it's not only incentered in the spamm and the "good aim" but in tatics, in planning a strategy or other things!
if it has a LARGE community that support it and play it!
Well, that's just someone else's opinion of what a good 'competitive' game should be. Perhaps it's right...perhaps it's wrong.
Now let's make this example... let's image QUAKE3 if IT WOULD NOT have popularity :
People buy the game, and they see that's all u have to do is to jump jump jump and fire before the enemy! OK it's funny at the beginning.
Now after 2 months people still play on servers fragging a lot, just jumping, chaning weapons, running for the map!
after 4 months we will start seeing bests players.. players that win more often then others.. stronger players etc.etc!
Now slowly the game will adapt at this situation.. so the BEST players will be the ones able to JUMP, changing weapons in air.. AIM u with a perfect shot.. and recover health while fightning!
Now this game will BORE people that would not like to play ONLY this way! couse it can be FUNNY or COREGRAPHIC at first times.. but slowly after 5..6..7 months it will annoy players couse it's everytime the SAME thing... just JUMP, FIRE.. who better aim.. more often win!
Sorry...but I fail to see the point you're making. Quake 3 is used in tournaments a lot...yet you're saying it's not a very good game for competitive play due to it's repetitive nature. Your argument completely cancels itself out. People would not use Quake 3 in tournaments if it was not suitable for the 'competitive arena', they would surely use something else. So the simple fact is that a majority of players find the fast, jumpy, twitch-aim play style acceptable, and suitable for tournaments.
Considering a game like RTCW where if u make an error. u DIE.. and often the good coordination with you other team mates let u win or let u loose!
Yes, in team-based games it is obviously essential to develop good team integration, communication and tactics in order to prevail against your opponents. But then....I thought that was the whole idea of team-based games.
Imaging a game like tribes where your PERFECT time coordination between ATTACKS. DEFENDERS and CAPPER allow u to gain the victory... it mix : AIM, REFLEX with good strategy, voice control system, perfect team coordination : BASICALLY it MIX a lot of concept that INVOLVE people to play couse they dont see everytime the "SAME GAME".. but something more interesting, with a lot of different roles, with a lot of different way to play, with competitions and challanges!
I still fail to see your point. Yes, it helps to have a good mix in a game mode for it to gel together, and again for team-based play it is essential to have the right game mechanics (and maps) in order to get the best out of the experience. Yet again, though, you are holding up a game that was designed exclusively for online MP as a model for how it should be. Of course the game is balanced properly for MP...because that was how it was designed from the ground up. The JK series, on the other hand, have always contained both SP (which has usually been the main focus) and MP (which is now starting to develop a better focus - possibly due to the fact the game is built on Q3 tech which has robust MP support).
If u see good things in JO, surely it has a LOT of good aspects!
I totally agree.
but for example if u take DUEL NO FORCE of JO, sincerly i played it and i can ASSURE u i have a large experience in that... most ot time people just move strafing all the time at 2 or 3 metres of range just SWINING the saber in the air hoping to hit them or making some special move like LOUNGE that most of time has advantages on other moves!
In JO that may be the case...and it may even be the case in JA, but until we can actually try out JA to see how 'balanced' and 'effective' the saber combat model is, it's hard to say with any certainty whether it will simply resort to people swinging their sabers around like maniacs hoping to score a hit. There will undoubtedly always be players who choose to play this way, and forego any attempt at learning to time their moves, practice basic strategy, or adopt the skillset needed to prevail for any length of time. With the increased number of moves - including counter-measures - that will be available in JA, hopefully people will move away from simply attempting the same attacks over and over as they perceive that strategy is less effective than adopting a mix of different moves.
Now.. assuming that as u have seen the MOST popular way to play JK is DUEL NO FORCE.. there should be a reason right??
The reason is that a COMMON server is just PURE SPAMM game... without any control of the game. just RUN AND SHOT with your flachette cannon and spamm all around with drain and lightning!
THAT'S CAN BE FUNNY.. INTERESTING... ENJOINABLE.. but surely without future! or the future there could be only for a small community that like this kind of gametype... but it will never grows up!
That's how you view it, and you're entitled to your opinion - but I don't see that this fast and furious style of play is any different from vanilla Quake 3 Arena. People run around and use whatever means at their disposal to frag their opponents. The major difference between Q3 and JO/JA is that you have an even greater choice in how to tackle your opponents - the inclusion of melee saber combat and Force powers alters the style of play dramatically, and I would argue that by it's very nature, JO/JA is more strategic and tactical than vanilla Q3 because of these very factors. You cannot simply rely on having the most powerful weapon at your disposal...if someone can use a Force power on you to strip away that advantage. Yes, there will always be issues of balance, because balancing so many factors in these games is harder than simply ensuring weapons 1-9 function correctly.
Image if JA would have :
Characther slow as RTCW style
Really dangerous weapons.. i mean u should GET COVER from them.. and not avoid shoots just jumping or rolling for the map
if the game should be more incentred on team play or.. also in DUEL concept.. in a good managing of strategic elements, maps, mixed with good aim and skill::: it will be different
I don't see how you can claim jumping and rolling is the only way players avoid getting shot. The more skilled players I have seen will take out their lightsaber in FFA to deflect incoming blaster fire, or use Force push to deflect incoming rockets and Heavy Repeater secondary fire. As I said before, you cannot simply rely on getting the biggest and 'most deadly' weapon to win, because for most of the weapons in JO/JA there are counter-measures.
I disagree that player movement should be slowed down in the game - after all, you can choose to walk, or run, or use Force Speed (and risk being caught short of Force mana when you need it in combat). It seems to me that the crux of your complaint is that it is harder to kill your opponents...and surely that by itself indicates that there is more strategy and sufficient counter-measures in place already. Just because it is harder to frag your opponents does not mean the game modes are no good for competitive play. It only means you have to work all the harder to win.
BUT JO IS :
weapons barely hit, just couse the COMMON soldier can roll, jump , run as SUPERMAN, carry 9 type of different weapons, 5 items, and 3 different detonators ( WHERE THE F... can he carrys all these items O_O?? )... using all force powers... using a lightsaber without penalities.
if the most common FF tatics in the game WOULD NOT BE just activate ABSORB, SPEED. JUMP and run for the map shooting missiles launchers and flachette cannon vs other players at 400 kph speed and making jump 20 meteres tall for all the map!
MAYBE it should be mooooooreee effective on communities..
DAMN it's called JEDI KNIGHT but did u never seen a JEDI or a Bounty hunter or a STORMTROOPER fight like JO style? it's not a JEDI it's a SUPER-TECNOLOGICAL-GENETIC MODIFICATION OF A JEDI.... the most IDIOT JO characther is STRONGER then YODA!
Hehe...but that's the nature of the game. The simple fact is, you are a Jedi, with access to a full range of Force powers, and so of course you have these rapid and 'large' movements across the maps. You are a kind of Superman...but so is everyone else in the game, which evens things out. This large scale movement is one of the defining aspects of this series of games. And having access to a huge range of weapons is no different than 100 other FPS games out there which do the same thing (including Quake 3 and UT2K3). No one complains about having access to all the weapons in those 'competitive' games. :rolleyes:
i think the game can be cool couse DUEL mod is intersting but right now it cant compete with other games ( and i mean IT CAN capture the interestes of communities ) couse it totally WRONG the gamestyle! it's just a SPAMM FUNNY COREOGRAPHIC game! but not a game that offer competition.
Again, you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm sure a large section of this community would disagree.
As u said there could be a MOD that will modify all of this! but belive IF COUTNERSTRIKE or WARCRAFT III or RTCW are so famouse is not only couse the companies spent a lot of money on them!
but couse RTCW hasnt players that run and act and fight as a JK characther! it's ALL slower, more dangerous, more difficult to do. u should FIRST use your mind THEN act.. in JK i can JUMP happy all around the map shooting around me!... if i do that in other games i'll immediatly DIE!
The thing that comes across very plainly to me is that you enjoy a particular style of gameplay - the team-based, objective-based and 'slower-paced' style of play found in Counter-Strike and Enemey Territory, etc. The pace of those games is appropriate to their 'style' of play, and their more 'realistic' setting.
But the simple fact of the matter is that Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy are not 'meant' to be realistic. As a Jedi, you do have access to a range of abilities far removed from those seen in traditional shooters, and it helps to define these games and set them apart.
I think it would be truly sad if every game had to 'conform' to some unwritten (or written) standard to be considered for things like the World Cyber Games. You might as well simply make every game the same, and throw originality out of the window. And that would be a sad state of affairs. I'm not for one moment suggesting that there have not been (and will not be) issues around the MP aspects of JO/.JA, but you seem to be attacking practically every aspect of the game simply because you can't get a kill in two shots a lot easier because someone is moving at a crawl across the map. I don't consider that to be particularly great gameplay either.
Team-based play is not the only kind of competitive play out there. Deathmatch tournaments are still played, with a single player taking the winnings, and on the whole there is not a great deal of strategy required in such games. Dominating the most powerful weapons and power-ups while bunny-hopping around the maps is still the order of the day...
Hopefully some of the team-play issues that dogged JO have been fully addressed and fixed in JA. Siege mode is a definite step in the right direction - and with it's range of classes, each with limited equipment and weapons at their disposal, and a greater emphasis on objective-based play, I think we will see a slightly 'slower' pace with more strategic elements and stronger integration and communication between team-mates. Certainly, I hope that teams will need a good mix of the different classes, so there will only be a few Jedi running around each map. Other players will have to rely on vehicles, and yes, better strategy, in order to survive.
Anyway...I really don't think we can judge Jedi Academy until we have actually played it, and assessed anew any shortcomings.
I Agree with your point of view,
maybe my point is too switched in considering the game in a "hyper-realistic" way.
But just let me explain my point, for the others thing i agree with u :
My personal game tatisc in MP JO server usually is
running around with lightsaber, deflecting most shot and suddenly push back all missle, secondary fire of weapons u cant deflect.
Grip 1 player, throw him with grip inertia down a bridge and immedialy push him if the fall is far away from me!
if there are not falls, grip him and start kicking him till dead ( i matched that i can kill a player in 2.2 seconds while grip-kicking and being really difficult to be pushed couse i move the ewnemy around the map making me difficult to aim with the push )
if not, just drain continuesly jumping and doubletapping jump to kick EVERYTHING apporoch me too near... while jumping i perform red swing in the air or FAST blu lounge immediatly when someone is near or in the ground!
and all of this is done with 12 players in the area! so i mean u really see people be THROWN around the map or drained or cutted in half ot grip-kicked...
or best way i like to SABERTHROW and pull someone so he cant block the saber, while pulled grip him and side-kick someone other.. while gripping him i kick other players around me and then i GRIP - PUSH my target down a fall killing him, then SPLASH damage wiht lightning a 3 then DRAIN.
all of this only using the saber.. if we add the waepons ok.. sincerly i start using speed 3, and spamming the area with falchette and heavy repeater secondary fire.. pushing to be not counterattacked and draining to let people dont have any way to escape!
It's fun.. i NEVER SAID that it's not fun and it's CANNOT be a gamestyle! surely it's MORE complex and dyanmics then ANY quake or UT2003 :P
surely it also can be MORE effective as " SHOT'EM'UP duel style "
but maybe it's MY PERSONAL opinion, i sincered prefer a jedi knight where u wield a lightsaber and move around the map performin cool moves but SUDDENLY getting in a defense mode couse 2 stormtrooper start shooting at u and u must perform defensive manovre to approch them or to get u save while LASER are burning the air around your head!
and the stormtrooper get cover near the wall to approch u trying to avoid your force power!
just my opinion, a game more similiar to a REALISTIC way, it could be NOT bad.. just different, surely what i mean is that maybe MOST of the game should not be just "reflex or high mouse skill" but also, intelligence, good planning of the situation.
i dont mean GAME SLOWER couse players are too fast, but couse a MORE realistic physic in the game allow people to play a MORE REALISTIC combact situation.
If u see QUI GON and OBI WAN fightning vs droids u see them killing most of them but.. with rationality, keeping attention WHEN to deflect and WHEN to cut! and then when the drooidikas arrives they realize that it's too dangerous to approch them in a direcyt way and they find another way... maybe in a "realistic JO" u could play like they play in the movies!
But it's just my opinion :P i agree and i like to play JO ( and then JA ) as it works now! but i personally think that more a game has a comples Physic and game logic.. and more is opened to different solution to solve the problems! it means more way to play.. more fun.!
Sorry if i'm used to this but it's my game experience :P surely all of us will have their experience.
consider TEKKEN!
TEKKEN is 3d platform game.. where people seems to fight at human speed ( also if they perform impossiblie moves ) but they fight as the reality, moving , dodging, jumping and kicking at "real speed" most of times!
now in TEKKEN u have to fight and keep attention to enemy moves performing counterattacks or blocks to win, dodging at the right time and making good combo!
in JO U have to do THE SAME!.. dodgin at the right time, doing combo, attack and couner attack. EXACTLY the same of TEKKEN!
the only way is that TEKKEN seems realistic if u see it ( i talk about game physic ) and JO seems totally unrealistici :P
image a TEKKEN with lightsaber where u play exactly as JO, with same speed, model physic and model movements!
then image a TEKKEN where ppl run and fight as in JO.. it would be more similar to DRAGONBALL GT fight style :P
it just my opinion i repeat,, i like both the game but i PERSONALLY think that 1 of them could have a future.. and 1 of them would only remeain a FUN GAME for STARWARS FUN!
i hope to be wrong... next future will show the truth!
Originally posted by AV4T4R
My personal game tatisc in MP JO server usually is
running around with lightsaber, deflecting most shot and suddenly push back all missle, secondary fire of weapons u cant deflect.
Grip 1 player, throw him with grip inertia down a bridge and immedialy push him if the fall is far away from me!
if there are not falls, grip him and start kicking him till dead ( i matched that i can kill a player in 2.2 seconds while grip-kicking and being really difficult to be pushed couse i move the ewnemy around the map making me difficult to aim with the push )
if not, just drain continuesly jumping and doubletapping jump to kick EVERYTHING apporoch me too near... while jumping i perform red swing in the air or FAST blu lounge immediatly when someone is near or in the ground!
and all of this is done with 12 players in the area! so i mean u really see people be THROWN around the map or drained or cutted in half ot grip-kicked...
or best way i like to SABERTHROW and pull someone so he cant block the saber, while pulled grip him and side-kick someone other.. while gripping him i kick other players around me and then i GRIP - PUSH my target down a fall killing him, then SPLASH damage wiht lightning a 3 then DRAIN.
all of this only using the saber.. if we add the waepons ok.. sincerly i start using speed 3, and spamming the area with falchette and heavy repeater secondary fire.. pushing to be not counterattacked and draining to let people dont have any way to escape!
There are many different ways to kill opponents. For instance, I know people who will mindtrick+snipe people, and I myself like to attack with the sabre then pull out a repeater while they're expecting a lunge. Because of all the different tools available - force, guns, sabre, there are heaps of different strategies one can use.
It's fun.. i NEVER SAID that it's not fun and it's CANNOT be a gamestyle! surely it's MORE complex and dyanmics then ANY quake or UT2003 :P
surely it also can be MORE effective as " SHOT'EM'UP duel style "
but maybe it's MY PERSONAL opinion, i sincered prefer a jedi knight where u wield a lightsaber and move around the map performin cool moves but SUDDENLY getting in a defense mode couse 2 stormtrooper start shooting at u and u must perform defensive manovre to approch them or to get u save while LASER are burning the air around your head!
and the stormtrooper get cover near the wall to approch u trying to avoid your force power!
I agree, that would probably be cool.
just my opinion, a game more similiar to a REALISTIC way, it could be NOT bad.. just different, surely what i mean is that maybe MOST of the game should not be just "reflex or high mouse skill" but also, intelligence, good planning of the situation.
i dont mean GAME SLOWER couse players are too fast, but couse a MORE realistic physic in the game allow people to play a MORE REALISTIC combact situation.
...I find that games SUCH AS Counterstrike and RtCW are reflex+high mouse skill games. Define a more realistic combat situation.
If u see QUI GON and OBI WAN fightning vs droids u see them killing most of them but.. with rationality, keeping attention WHEN to deflect and WHEN to cut! and then when the drooidikas arrives they realize that it's too dangerous to approch them in a direcyt way and they find another way... maybe in a "realistic JO" u could play like they play in the movies!
Yes, well the better players don't just run at the enemy and swing, otherwise they'll get cut up.
I really think that we'll have to wait to see what sort of competetive play we'll see from JA.Perhaps after September 17. :)
First of all im going to say that team based game play my favorite, its more rewarding and i like startegy. Now in JO i never got that, i agree with the italian that its a jump fest, you cant deny it, it is, i dont get satisfaction from a kill like i do in enemy territory. Thats why im looking foward to siege, i think the core problem of this style of gameplay is the jedi, everyone wants force powers. So im looking forward to siege so there will be classes with no force powers and no superhuman jump, its going to add more strategy im sure, and i hope theres a jedi limit, because IMO the force powers take away the team gameplay. I still like JO mp but it gets boring before et does. Please this is just my opinion i bought JO for the sp mostly but im buying JA for the multiplayer because i hope it has evolved into a more orgaized mp.
Stategy can be used in anything. JO MP might have been Quakish, but I remember using a tactical analysis in CTF.
i remember i collaborated ( i helped him in balancing the features of the mod ) with Renegadeofpunk for the realization of MOVIE BATTLES!
It's a really cool mod couse players are slower, weapon are REALLY deadly but at the same time u DONT loose the corepgraphic and fast-style of the game!
The mod is a sort of Counterstrike CLASSES rolebased team vs team mod.
u can choose, bountyhunter , jedi, sith, soldiers... and i like that couse it's REALLY balanced!
bountyhunter has only 1 missile, jetpack ( with fuel ) and 2 kind fo weapons + sniper
stormies has 3 life ( the game was NO RESPAWN team vs team. so most classes have only 1 life ) and 1 thermal detonator.. only 50 hp but after all they have 3 lifes :P they represent not a STRONG characther. but a LOT OF weaks characthers!
let's try that :P then we can repeat it for JA
My major nags about JO were excessive auto-defense (it looked like someone had typed the old IDDQD and it worked) and inefective guns(pea-shooters) and sabers(glowsticks ;p)
(I hated when I was right being the running enemy flag carrier swatting him like crazy and the guy blocked everyhit with his back turned to me... crazy huh?)
The points mentionned above made force powers the best weapon in the game... it's always easier to kill with a lightning...and if the target has absorb... just kick him into that pit. And if you are lightside on ctf..just engage absorb and if possible speed and who's ghonna stop ya? (ok of course there's always a counter but it's still more effective than weapons and sabers)
The weapons became the extra and force the main arsenal.
Obviously the force powers like run and jump make a target harder to hit but it's one of the reasons it's there. no gripes there.
I can say i like a class system with soldiers packing gunz and shields and jedis packing lightsabers and force. But some people dont agree with me. The option to turn class system on and off is the best thing and it exists in JO...except like most useful commands it's "hidden" as a CVAR. You could also tweak the game speed and damage rate...all using CVARS... alot of good people didn't know this or didn't know how to effectivelly use them..and the bigtime servers rarely used them as well.
Now... If JA has the same speed as JO i can't say I'll be displeased. The weapon/saber efficiency has to be different...well if it's not at least i'd like to know if the CVARs stay ;) Same for a class system (not counting siege).
nevertheless... from what i've read in the articles, raven's posts here in the forums, official website(coooool) i'm pretty confidant the game will totally rock. The new anims are very promissing... all im wondering is what i call the bane of JO... great defense vs poor offense.
Anyway... we'll all soon find out ;)
I really didnt read all the posts (just half) but i guess i got the idea of the thread =/
i do think jo was strategic, because you really needed to think your moves and atacks, otherwise you would get seriously owned. (i am bad with english too).
Jedi knight series are very diferent from quake 3 or UT, i dont know why are you all comparing them. Only noobs played JO like a fps game.
I never played the other versions of jo i just played 1.02 and i must say it was incredibly fun the mix of combat and rpg in MP (single player sux, developers shouldnt have wasted their time doing that, well not that sux but its just that MP makes the game). I hope Ja is the same, but better, much more better.
I know it will, i was just saying.
Its true what you all were saying about the new versions because it............splited the players (is there a better word?) and thats not good.
The moderators can send letters to raven or whoever made the game and pressure them to not doing that.
I know this i kinda off topic but this is my first post =)
Could anyone tell me if JA will be more lagy because it has better graphics or it would be the same as JO (internet spped i mean)?
And dont you all think there should be and expansion for ja but just for MP?
BTW this forum looks exactly the same as the dayofdefeat forum
:eek:
Ok thats all
I never played the other versions of jo i just played 1.02 and i must say it was incredibly fun the mix of combat and rpg in MP (single player sux, developers shouldnt have wasted their time doing that, well not that sux but its just that MP makes the game). I hope Ja is the same, but better, much more better.
Jo is an fps game it was intented to be played as an fps and only noobs like you played it as an rpg!!:rolleyes:
Not to start another lamer thread but this guy has got jk2 totally wrong.
Strategy??? Whats the strategy in using the amsitting emote and talking about the weather and other assorted bull**** if you want an rpg SWG is the way to go.
You have missed the entire idea of the post yes it is about strategy but not the strategy of a saber combo!! Strategy as in ctf strategys, you know competitive play! read the posts before you post about rpgs!!
And Jk2 single player being crappy what are you on:confused: :rolleyes: ??
I understand this is your opinion this is just my counter opinion so dont take any offence. :D
Have a nice day:)
I would argue but since I have a huge doubt in the original posters power of speech I won't bother.
IC
so you think i am wrong? ok..........
strategies in ctf, yes there are strategies, thats obious.
I am a noob (haha:D) because i played it as an rpg?, i never said i did, i just said the game had that feeling, and well fps in JO never hapened, simply because nobody give a demn on guns in an starwars game. If you want fps, play counter strike, who cares if it was intended to be a fps, everybody played it in third person using lightsabers, thats the only reason people bought the game.
If you want strategic games, play strategic games like age of empires or star craft. If you want this kind of game be, "strategic" you probably will get bored soon.
The reason everybody played the game is because of the rpg feeling in an action game. And with rpg feeling i mean, to play the game..........just for fun, doing whatever the heck you want.........without objectives or some..........accepting challenges and proving you are the best............i dont know if i make myself clear, i dont really know how to express my ideas in a foreign language.
Well at east this just my opinion of JO, it doesnt mean i am correct or wrong , its just the way i played the game and the way i consider people played the game.
I didnt meaned single payer sucked, because it "could have being" much more better game if they would have used that time
in improving the MP part of JO (and also JA, but oh well) that is as i said before what makes the game.
And its a fact that JA will never be at high competitions like quake or other games, and why is that? simply because they wasted their time doing the SP of JA (yes its fun, yes its cool, but as i said above it would have being better if bla bla bla).
I am just saying it would have being a much more solid game.
Nice day to you too ;)
So let's see, you're saying that Raven wasted their time putting guns into the game, because nobody buys star wars games for guns?
I guess that will come as a shock to the developers of "Republic Commando" since that will be a Star Wars game with no lightsabers or force in it.
Not to mention the entire DF series began with Dark Forces, another game with no lightsaber or force.
And you're saying that people only bought JK2 so they could use sabers?
What about all the people who bought it because it was a sequel to Jedi Knight, a game that successfully combined guns, sabers, and force?
Even Sabers only gets pretty boring after awhile (just check some of the complaining threads if you don't believe me), and while some people play nothing but that, a great many people play with all the weapons and force powers, as it was meant to be played.
Are you saying that Guns in a Star Wars game make it automatically uncompetative?
Or are you saying that because its Star Wars nobody will use guns? Last time I checked the weapons were fun to use and came right out of Star Wars... they are as authentic as the Lightsaber.
Is your assumption that saber fighting is non-competative then?
Raven has confirmed that they will have classes and lots of other weapons in Multiplayer, so I guess it will follow the same pattern as JK2, according to you.
Agreed Kurgan. Dark Forces originally began as an FPS without guns. Additionally, you just owned. :D :cool:
The guy says JA wont be as popular as Halflife Counterstrike...as if thats a bad thing. CS is a one of a kind, it has more servers/players than all other FPS games. I dont understand why its the most popular, but I wont deny that it is. I never saw anything very spectacular about it.
The last thing I want is all the CS "l33t hax0r1ng d00d5" to play Jedi Academy. They can play CS and leave us alone. :)
CS is an abomination. It was once good, but now it's the spawn of hell.
I agree with AV4T4R that when you look at the game it doesn't seem like its got strategy and great game dynamics,
if someone were to look at a sabre duel between two players and see someone win then sure,
It "looks" like mindless spam, and it doesn't "Look" Elegant but thats the saber system we got ****but if you play it*****, it is elegant, it is competitive and it does take some practice.
Its not like if someone were to watch a 1v1 q3 or Ut2k3 for the 1st time, you could instantly notice the skill involved like great timed shots with accuracy beyond belief, sure they'd make it look easy, ***but when you play it****, you'd find it isn't
I personally like to play JO and JA for guns myself since the sabering is getting a little worn thing for me, so Im one of those people who basically bought it for some CTF some FFA and siege
aim and shoot its not the most balaced weapon set ever, but its fun I think Raven is out to make a fun game
they did, well.
as Kurgan said if the community wants to make it competitive it will, me I don't want to be competitive in JO/JA it lacks something I can't quite put my finger on in the dynamics department