Not in principle, of course. However, Tarkin quotes are frighteningly like general ideas in the US.
Tarkin: Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.
US: Nuclear weapons help promote the peace!
Tarkin: I think you overestimate their chances.[loses fight]
US: We'll stop those communists in Vietnam![loses war]
Anyone else think they are more alike than is comfortable?
Similarities, yeah
The same, nah
The Empire is purely evil, I mean cmon its obvious.
The US isnt really evil, they may be a little greedy (dont get offended plz), but they wont kill anyone in their way.
I see it more like this...
the US in the Clinton era was like the old Republic. Bill gets impeached (Vallurum sp?) and then Bush comes in and starts attacking countries for no reason (Tarkin)... ;) hehe j/k
they are both powerful but not the same, the empire just destroys planets to make somebody give up info, the us just uses its power when it sees fit
they are both powerful but not the same, the empire just destroys planets to make somebody give up info, the us just uses its power when it sees fit
How is that different? :)
In the first part of your comment you basically say that the Empire uses it's power when it sees fit. :)
Just pointing out that that was a rather vague comment. :D
Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are one and the same either. :)
There are similarities. But that can be said about many nations though. ;)
Attacking countries for no reason? :confused:
This isn't a good idea. A flame war will start soon enough... =S
flame war eh!? sounds awsome,oh those flames..yeah.
ummm similarities i see, but not enough to be compared.
Originally posted by ZBomber
This isn't a good idea. A flame war will start soon enough... =S
that's why i'm watching this thread like a Raven... play nice children ^^
My opinion is that the US doesn't have any similarities (or not enough) to make them anything like the Empire. The Empire IMO was created from the histories of many different old empires, may it be the Roman and/or the Nazi's and/or more, who knows. I'm tired, i want lunch... *walks out grumbling*
...remember.... i'm watching
the empire uses its power to scare people to get information, i dont think george bush would destroy somebodys home country just to find out where the communist party is meeting
I think you'll find there are communist partys in the USA roaming free..
yeah and its not like bush threatens a members home country to find out where the party meets or something
And it's not like the Emperor threatened to kill a whole planet for information either.
That was all Tarkins decission. :)
But then again, he didn't dissaprove of it much either, I'm sure. :D
I sense a flame war.
There's a lot of similarities. Don't underestimate the president. He's evil...
Bush is an arrogant cowboy and uses intimidation to get what he wants but hes not evil. The US is similar to the Empire in that it bullies others around and thinks that its always right. Now sometimes its nessesary to step in and make a point to a war torn country like Liberia for instance. Thats where the US and Empire differ, the Empire would just invade a world and kill anyone who dissagreed.
I have a feeling that when George Lucas created the Galactic Empire, he invisioned how the world will be in later years. Completely corrupt, brainwashing the people and having a huge army/navy that spans across the galaxy. Although I don't think the U.S. is currently like that, it may end up that way (I think the whole world is very screwed up right now). Bush isn't attacking countries for no reason, Saddam is a very vile, evil, person who really doesn't deserve to live on this earth and has brainwashed his people into hating the rest of the world.
I disagree about how the U.S. gets involved in everyone else's business, but why are we talking politics with a bunch of teenagers and young adults?
I disagree with this post.
I'm not sure if anyone posted this yet, but here is what the Galactic Empire is exactly like:
Roman Empire + Third Reich of Germany.
Rome was a republic in BC era.
The Roman republic was ruled by the Roman Republican Senate. (and I don't mean GOP. Let's keep is civilized please)
A time of war came, and Julius Caesar was elected to be a "chancelor" to Rome. He turned his Chancelorship into an Empire. After that it was an Empire until Rome's fall just before the Middle Ages.
Germany was a republic with ever increasing borders. A time of war came, and the armies of Germany lost. Through a time of economic hardship, they elected a chancelor....Adolph Hitler.
Other elements that Lucas borrowed:
*Hitler's SS had storm troopers.
*The Nazis are racist and bigoted, just like the Empire.
*In Rome there is a hill called the "Palatine." Sounds an aweful lot like Palpatine.
Reasons why The Empire is nothing like the USA:
*despite what many non-americans think, the USA is not an empire. The last time we expanded our borders was when we added Hawaii as a state in the 50s. Since then we have actually reduced our borders (granting independence to the Phillipines for example).
*We are a Democratic Republic with all the checks and balances. We have a Tri-branch government which prevents us from becoming a dictatorship. We also have the US Constitution which is the ultimate law of the land. If laws are established, and are then reckoned unconstitutional, then such laws are abolished.
*Vietnam was similar only to the situation in Endor. (George Lucas, From Star Wars To Jedi Even then the comparison is highly flawed. The Soviet Union and China had plans to spread Communism to all corners of the world. This is evident in how many nations converted. (North Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, China, Mongolia, Romania, Chech, Poland, Belarus, etc...) The Ewoks were not embracing a new governmental system. They were cavemen-like teddy bears that didn't understand technology. All in all, it is not a very good analogy.
*If Star Wars were like USA vs. Vietnam, then SW would need a second empire teamed with Ewoks vs. Galactic Empire. The rebel alliance doesn't count because the Galactic Empire was SO MUCH bigger.
*The USSR was more like the Galactic Empire in that they were constantly spreading their borders and the system of Communism (which was a threat to Democracy). If you want to make a better comparison, then Battle of Endor is more like USSR vs. Afghanaistan.
*Bush is not a dictator. while this is not relevant to the thread, I feel that it must be mentioned. Bush was elected under the democratic system I mentioned above. There are checks and balances. The US Constitution declares that Presidents shall only serve 2 terms maximum. There is nothing that any politician in the executive branch can do to change this, no matter how hard they try. At the same time, I am a believer that WMD did exist in Iraq. Where is it now? Most likely not in Iraq, but probably moved to Jordan or Syria.
*The United States AND British forces invaded Iraq: a country led by a cruel and murderous dictator. He and his staff were guilty of murdering thousands of Kurds <sp?> and Kuwaitis. If anything, the USA and Britain were the Rebel Alliance freeing the Ewoks (Iraqis) from the reign of the evil Empire (Saddam).
*In the Galactic Empire, how many women are officers? (in the EU Admiral Daala was, so there's one) How many non-white people are Officers? (I don't recall any non-white imperial humans ever.) How many non-human officers are in the Empire? (Grand Admiral Thrawn was a Chiss, so there is one.) The Galactic Empire is bigoted and prejudiced. The United States is not this way. Yes there is prejudism among the people, but the law of the land prevents the government from it. "All men (and women!!) are created equal." In this, the Empire and USA have absolutely no similarities at all. The Empire's new order is nothing like United States' Constitutional practices. We have minories in governing positions. We have women Senators, Representatives, and Governors. We have not had any women Presidents yet, but there is no law preventing it.
*Finally, in the Empire if you spoke against the government, you would be arrested and executed. In the USA, people speak out against the government all the time. It's called the first amendment. I hated the Clinton years, and I was more than happy to share my view with others. Some of you hate Bush? God bless you for your opinion, and for the freedom to share it. Again, completely different than the Empire.
The result? The USA has very little in common with the Empire.
Proudly American,
Jedispy
Don't want to get into a political discussion but couldn't hold it :D
*We are a Democratic Republic with all the checks and balances. We have a Tri-branch government which prevents us from becoming a dictatorship. We also have the US Constitution which is the ultimate law of the land. If laws are established, and are then reckoned unconstitutional, then such laws are abolished.
A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y
a great democratic country.
I mean, every person can surely say their opinion. Look at the people who oposed to the war. They were not neglegted because they had another opinion, no they were totally listened too and had great dialogues with the "i am with bush" people...
Oh and let's not forget how good usa had been to people who thought differently and believed in communist, They didn't jailed them, neither have they ended their career. There wasn't a black list no....absolutely no...Macarthy was totally democratic...
and let's not forget of the good south(and north)...black people are the same as white...there is absolutely no difference...no difference at all...Racism...what is that. USA don't know that....
And let's not forget the ultimate democratic way of beginning a war by ONE man. Totally democratic. Especially if that man is an idiot then he surely is making the war for all the country, for all the millions people...
etc..
:p
oh and :Bush was elected under the democratic system I mentioned above. There are checks and balances.
sure, the election wasn't a rullette...they didn't numbered the votes over a dozen times NO, it was totally democratic...there wasn't a great fuss of how(?) the florida votes where numbered...nonono the election was clearly democratic...the people choosed their leader :rolleyes:
Storm Troopers anyone? think about it
Originally posted by jedispy
Reasons why The Empire is nothing like the USA:
*despite what many non-americans think, the USA is not an empire. The last time we expanded our borders was when we added Hawaii as a state in the 50s. Since then we have actually reduced our borders (granting independence to the Phillipines for example).
*We are a Democratic Republic with all the checks and balances. We have a Tri-branch government which prevents us from becoming a dictatorship. We also have the US Constitution which is the ultimate law of the land. If laws are established, and are then reckoned unconstitutional, then such laws are abolished.
*Vietnam was similar only to the situation in Endor. (George Lucas, From Star Wars To Jedi Even then the comparison is highly flawed. The Soviet Union and China had plans to spread Communism to all corners of the world. This is evident in how many nations converted. (North Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, China, Mongolia, Romania, Chech, Poland, Belarus, etc...) The Ewoks were not embracing a new governmental system. They were cavemen-like teddy bears that didn't understand technology. All in all, it is not a very good analogy.
*If Star Wars were like USA vs. Vietnam, then SW would need a second empire teamed with Ewoks vs. Galactic Empire. The rebel alliance doesn't count because the Galactic Empire was SO MUCH bigger.
*The USSR was more like the Galactic Empire in that they were constantly spreading their borders and the system of Communism (which was a threat to Democracy). If you want to make a better comparison, then Battle of Endor is more like USSR vs. Afghanaistan.
*Bush is not a dictator. while this is not relevant to the thread, I feel that it must be mentioned. Bush was elected under the democratic system I mentioned above. There are checks and balances. The US Constitution declares that Presidents shall only serve 2 terms maximum. There is nothing that any politician in the executive branch can do to change this, no matter how hard they try. At the same time, I am a believer that WMD did exist in Iraq. Where is it now? Most likely not in Iraq, but probably moved to Jordan or Syria.
*The United States AND British forces invaded Iraq: a country led by a cruel and murderous dictator. He and his staff were guilty of murdering thousands of Kurds <sp?> and Kuwaitis. If anything, the USA and Britain were the Rebel Alliance freeing the Ewoks (Iraqis) from the reign of the evil Empire (Saddam).
*In the Galactic Empire, how many women are officers? (in the EU Admiral Daala was, so there's one) How many non-white people are Officers? (I don't recall any non-white imperial humans ever.) How many non-human officers are in the Empire? (Grand Admiral Thrawn was a Chiss, so there is one.) The Galactic Empire is bigoted and prejudiced. The United States is not this way. Yes there is prejudism among the people, but the law of the land prevents the government from it. "All men (and women!!) are created equal." In this, the Empire and USA have absolutely no similarities at all. The Empire's new order is nothing like United States' Constitutional practices. We have minories in governing positions. We have women Senators, Representatives, and Governors. We have not had any women Presidents yet, but there is no law preventing it.
*Finally, in the Empire if you spoke against the government, you would be arrested and executed. In the USA, people speak out against the government all the time. It's called the first amendment. I hated the Clinton years, and I was more than happy to share my view with others. Some of you hate Bush? God bless you for your opinion, and for the freedom to share it. Again, completely different than the Empire.
The result? The USA has very little in common with the Empire.
Proudly American,
Jedispy [/B]
*I 'll like your reply and it true alot Non-American think we are empire which true we are not if we were we would take over the world a long time ago or tried to.
*Your point on law are almost perfect but law could easy be broken with little ease.Anyone could break a law and people here in the US do it all the time.Trust i have done it a couple of time(But i wont tell anyone here)
*One the third point your totally right there talk teddy bears come on where do some people come up with an analogy like that?
*am skipping the next two to qoute on the Bush thing.You got no prove still,but that has nothing to to do with the topic.Well Bush cant be a dictator even if he wanted to he does have what it take to be a dictator.He a foolish man and would rush into everything anyway(O crap off topic i stop now)
*I hate this.Come no way that so not true look at the Iraqis there still killing US soldiers.U dont see those little teddy bear killing each other because one of them friendly with Rebel Alliance so that flaw answer.Plus Saddam got to be a Ewok as well
I agree with the last two thing you posted
I just want to post what i think.
Dont bother me about it.
Has much as the intentions are honorable, I think the main reason for "freeing Iraq" is the oil. The main reason for helping Kuwait was oil. The US doesn't seem to care a lot about countries with no oil or any useful ressources. Of course you would ask "There's the WMD and the freeing of people". Then hmmm...go free the following countries out of tyranny and oppression: Tibet, Cuba, Iran, etc. The list goes on and on...
You are sadly mistaken, lukeiamyourdad. The US is not extracting any oil for their own use. You must have been brainwashed by those anti-america people. The US is using the money from the oil to help the Iraqis. And I don't think the US would spend billions and billions and billions of dollars just to get the US soldiers killed and murder Iraqis just for the oil.
I think this topic would get some interesting replies if it was posted in the "Senate". However ever it is not. I was just wondering isnt this a little off topic?
Yes the US does have Similarities with the Galactic Republic/ Galactic Empire. However I wont debating this topic as I feel its not the place to do so.
Lynk Former said:
The Empire IMO was created from the histories of many different old empires
I can see from most of this that there's a lot of evidence to back this up, but IMHO I think Lucas borrowed a bit from Tolkein. For example, as I said in my post in "Some things I never got about SW but are fun to wonder about... " Endor is Elvish for "Earth" or "The world".
You can follow the same basic plot elements...... Get R2 (The ring) to Alderaan(mount doom). You'll have Obi Wan(Gandalf) to help you. On the way you'll meet Han(Aragorn) and Chewie(Gimli) etc.
Lost in the Death Star (Mines of Moria), Ben(Gandalf) dies to save you from Darth Vader(in this case a Balrog).
There is an overwhelmingly powerful evil, the emperor (Sauron) and if Luke(Frodo) turns to the dark side(succumbs to the ring), he will fail.
One of the companions, Han(this time Boromir) turns his back on his friends(tries to take the ring from Frodo) but comes back to shoot Vader off Luke's back(try and save Merry and Pippen)
Lucas borrowed from a looooooooooot of things. The Star Wars saga is a set of movies made from cutting and pasting different ideas. (explained in a crude way lol)
Originally posted by TK8252MJL
You are sadly mistaken, lukeiamyourdad. The US is not extracting any oil for their own use. You must have been brainwashed by those anti-america people. The US is using the money from the oil to help the Iraqis. And I don't think the US would spend billions and billions and billions of dollars just to get the US soldiers killed and murder Iraqis just for the oil.
And you aren't brainwashed by Bush's propaganda?
Think dude. What's the point in spending billions if you don't get a bigger compensation? Goodness? Every country is controlled or lead by businessmen. They think like bussinessmen not like intellectuals.
You'll see that 20 years from now you'll get oil for a cheaper price then the rest of us.
I'm not brainwashed by anyone I'm looking at facts from different sources. You have to open up and stop saying we can do no wrong we are always right always good. It leads to very bad behavior.
jedispy-
excellent points. in fact, the only reason why the US could be likened 2 the empire is coz both are in dominant military positions.
lukeimyourdad & tk8252-
both of u are right--and wrong.
The US is not extracting any oil for their own use
yes, you're right--it's not. the US isn't exacting profit from iraq's "vast" oil deposits.....her control over them is rather limited at the moment. u should note, too, that the US is spending HUGE amounts of money on its occupation of iraq...indeed, it's expected to spend 200 BILLION dollars over the next 10 years alone (assuming the UN doesn't step in, of course, to share the burden). really, it has little (immediate) financial gain to benefit from....even in the long run, the US stands to gain little , given that iraq's supply of oil is damn near crippled.
that's not to say, however, that the US's decision to invade iraq was fuelled solely by altruistic concerns...
Think dude. What's the point in spending billions if you don't get a bigger compensation? Goodness?
exactly. whenever a country makes a decision, it first determines whether the decision is made in its best interests. as selfish as this may sound, it's really good & proper. the liberation of iraq WAS in the US's best interests....but not really in the oil context. potential benefits include the creation a whole new market for not only america but the world as a whole, the removal of a dictator whose very existence & supposed control of weapons of mass destruction has been a thread to peace & stability for a long time, the destruction of a body which has been known to fund terrorist activities in the past & many others besides.
so yeah, oil wasn't really a factor in the US's decision to invade iraq. potential gain for the US, however, was....and as such, both of u guys r, to some extent, right....so u can let go of each other's necks now....:D
and imyourdad....is that really a picture of you as avatar? coz if it is, i'm gonna start siding with u a lot more often..... :p
ben-*cough*yes*cough*certainly not*cough*Famke Janssen*cough
:D
I agree with most of the things you said.
Heard Bush's speech yesterday? What a load of crap. Litterally telling all the countries to send money and get their soldiers killed for absolutely no gain.
As for market it does open up for everyone else but the United States will get a preferencial price over oil meaning it will cost them less to get the oil from the iraqi while selling them for probably the same amount as in any other countries. In other words, the oil companies will make more cash.
I've never understood actually why Bush so wanted everyone to back him up before the war. France, Germany and Russia are actually not a target and them helping just might make them hated by the extremists. I think they're just looking over heir people.
The UN is the most worthless, full of crap organization that is just about as useful as the senate in The Phantom Menace.
The UN as innefective as it is, is the only crap left of unity this world has.
I guess people don't understand how a business man thinks. You don't spend for nothing...
The UN as innefective as it is, is the only crap left of unity this world has.
Probably a typo..... but I agree with both ways. The UN is the only scrap of unity this world has left, but it has no power.
If the UN had power, however, we may be dealing with an empire of our own. The only way so diverse a group could agree enough to form a government would be through a central leader. This is starting to sound too much like the plot for Phantom Menace, so I'll let it go now.
I'll just start this idea off, if someone agrees/disagrees, they can carry it further I'll probably respond.
I've been out of this post for a while so I'm not sure if anyone else addressed this. The argument about the Iraqi Oil is the worst one ever. So far Gulf War 2 has cost American taxpayers over $80 billion. If this were all about oil, then that would be the worst policy ever, and the President would have been blocked. As it is the U.S. Congress voted for official war funding in support of the Gulf War 2. Here is where the oil argument is flawed:
1. It is estimated that there is more oil in the ANWR (Alaska National Wildlife Refuge) than all of Iraq and Kuwait. It would cost U.S. taxpayers only about $15 million dollars to develop oil drilling in the ANWR. This is FAR less than the $80 BILLION that Gulf War 2 cost. Plus we wouldn't have to pay another country for oil. The oil in ANWR is American oil.
2. The UN had economic sanctions on Iraq after Gulf War 1. This prevented Iraq from pumping enough oil to their full potential. As it was there was an official UN policy of Oil for Food (even though France provided guns for food Thanks Jaques ChIraq!!! But I digress as this is not relevant here.) Again it comes down to what do we get out of it. Oil is not enough. It would nto have cost the American taxpayers $80 billion to have the UN lift the sanctions.
So as you can see, the oil argument is of no worth and full of fallacies.
It would make better sense to say that America wants (needs really) an economically strong ally in the Middle East. And this is what I believe is what is in it for us, not that it is a bad thing. America does need a powerful ally in the Middle East other than Israel. Iraq is completely ideal
for this.
1. The Baath party established a fairly secular state. Unlike many of the countries in the Middle East, Baathist Iraq had a form of "seperation of mosque and state." Christians were actually allowed to openly practice their religion (within reason of course. Iraq still was not a free nation.)
2. Iraq has the potential for becoming the Switzerland of the Middle East. They have the most developed oil drilling system. Economically they can potentially stand on their own....as soon as they get on their own two feet.
Jedispy
Star Wars people, Star Wars. If you wanna go in that direction start a thread in the cantina or something.
You could simply move the thread Lynk.
There is no doubt about this that oil wasn't the only reason. Saying that it i is flawed.
The american conservatist established a way that George Bush follows.
America must still be as powerful as it is today in 50 years and have a grip on the world economy forever.
1. It was a fact long ago that Iraq was the most advanced and open minded middle eastern country, giving women rights to go to school, drive a car, etc.
It is also a fact that Saddam hates the muslim extremists and they also dislike him for giving rights to women and such. So technically he wouldn't give a damn WMD to Al-quaida or whatever.
2. The middle east is go up into flames not long from now and the US knows this fact. Saudi Arabia has a lot of terrorists on its territory and is one of the most integrist countries of the middle east. If Bush' crusade was to liberate people, it would be "liberating" Saudi Arabia.
Anyway, people should look at this a bit differently. There are three factions in Iraq: the kurds, the sunnites and the chiites.
Now in the time of Saddam, he held a gun to everyone's head and told them to play nice with each other. Now that he's gone, the threat of a civil war between all the different factions flies over their head. It could turn out worse then people think.
That kind of civil war will lead to massacres that the americans will not be able to stop. It's gonna be worse then it was before
Star Wars does borrow a lot from the rise of the Roman Empire and the German Third Reich. That said, Lucas is not telling a dead story, the story of the Roman Republic becoming an Empire set in space, he is telling a living story, a story that is relevant to all democracies now and for the rest of Earth's history, because history, for whatever reason, tends to repeat itself. Democracies elect bad leaders, bad leaders exploit the fear of the people, bad leaders use this fear to consolidate their power, and with this power they become dictators. Now, if the public knows these steps from point A (democracy) to point B (dictatorship), then they can undercut the would-be dictator. I believe that is the thrust of the Prequels, telling a cautionary tell that is accessable to a mass audience.
Because it can happen here, people. Democracy may be the best system of government mankind has come up with, but it is about the most fragile. It relies on the people taking a full role in how the country is governed, and if there comes a time when the people surrender that role to their leaders, then the game could really be up. Terrorism and war are two historical ways that leaders have exploited the people and taken their rights and power from them, and we live in an era of terrorism and war.
Lucas wrote his first drafts of Star Wars when Watergate was in the news. According to Mythmaking, Lucas was heavily influenced in his creation of the Empire by the fear that Nixon would use the military to remain in power even if he was impeached and convicted in the Congress. (In fact, even sources inside the White House didn't know what would happen if Nixon was impeached according to the PBS documentary Watergate Plus 30.) In that, the Empire was heavily influenced by events happening in the US.
No i won't move it i'll close it, current affairs are aright to talk about, if you want to do that make a thread in the senate and talk about it there. Here it's Star Wars and it's influences. NOT what's happening in Iraq and how much we love/hate/support Bush.
Has much as the intentions are honorable, I think the main reason for "freeing Iraq" is the oil. The main reason for helping Kuwait was oil. The US doesn't seem to care a lot about countries with no oil or any useful ressources. Of course you would ask "There's the WMD and the freeing of people". Then hmmm...go free the following countries out of tyranny and oppression: Tibet, Cuba, Iran, etc. The list goes on and on...
i agree completely!!! GO AL GORE!!!!!!!!!! lol
:firehead
I didn't read most of the above btw.
The US shares about as much similarity with the empire as any other powerful country.
The US just does the sort of things that you consider 'acting like the empire' more than other countries because they're such a big country.