So how exactly in Ja will we level up our force powers.
Maybe just going through levels, like in JO.
You can pick them if I remember correctly.
Yeah you can pick them :) It's more like the JK system this time, and the more levels you play (you don't have to play all of them), the more forcepowers you can train.
Originally posted by Blademaster_109
So how exactly in Ja will we level up our force powers.
[frustration on] Given that there are two open threads at THE VERY TOP OF THE LIST about force powers, WHY OH WHY do you feel the need to open YET ANOTHER force power thread, and YET AGAIN make a thread with an absolutely f-ing meaningless title ... haven't you been asked again and again to use REAL titles and to not start threads that duplicate existing ones already heavily in play?!?!?!?!?! [/end frustration]
So my answer to your question ... we haven't seen definitively, but it seems like a hybrid between JK and JO - you use the missions to 'train' a force power, then you are supposed to have choices about powers as you progress. Sounds interesting.
Mike
The JK system was far superior in terms of replayability. I mean, for every secret that you found you could amend your powers as a reward, but after once playing through JKII you knew what powers were going to advance.
But in academy they could have considered things like kills, accuracy etc. along with secrets discovered to boost your knowledge of the force, it would give people an extra incentive to play through a few times. :cool:
Actually, I always thought it'd be better if you rewarded not just finding secrets, but playing a particular role once you have the ability to choose light or dark side. Assuming you're a student at the academy, you're presumably going to be picking light side, so saving innocents, resolving things without violence, etc. would be rewarded, but would take a while for you to advance (and would make you REALLY powerful once you got up to a particular level). Alternatively, if you chose to resolve things through an exercise of raw power, if you chose killing everyone in the level, and if you don't mind killing a few innocents on the way, then you'll gain darkside levels quickly, but will plateau out after a certain point. That way you'd be rewarded not just for doing things like finding secrets, but for playing true to a particular side of the force.
So if i get this right. All that skills you get in SinglePlayer can you use in MultiPlayer or? is it like JK2 multiplayer that you choose what powers you want to have? :confused:
Originally posted by txa1265
[frustration on] Given that there are two open threads at THE VERY TOP OF THE LIST about force powers, WHY OH WHY do you feel the need to open YET ANOTHER force power thread, and YET AGAIN make a thread with an absolutely f-ing meaningless title ... haven't you been asked again and again to use REAL titles and to not start threads that duplicate existing ones already heavily in play?!?!?!?!?! [/end frustration]
So my answer to your question ... we haven't seen definitively, but it seems like a hybrid between JK and JO - you use the missions to 'train' a force power, then you are supposed to have choices about powers as you progress. Sounds interesting.
Mike
There's not really much point in me typing anything because he just said it all :D
IMO the jk system was far better than jk2's :)
I hope you get to use ur character force powers.
Nope, you just collect force powers but never use them through the game. :)
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by >BawBag<
The JK system was far superior in terms of replayability. I mean, for every secret that you found you could amend your powers as a reward, but after once playing through JKII you knew what powers were going to advance.
But in academy they could have considered things like kills, accuracy etc. along with secrets discovered to boost your knowledge of the force, it would give people an extra incentive to play through a few times. :cool:
Only if you found *every secret* did you get any reward ... how frustrating! I agree that it made it interesting to pick and choose your strengths. The problem was that the powers themselves were less useful. JK often made me recall the line 'ancient weapons and hokey religions are no match for a blaster at your side ...'
I hope they find a nice balance with JA. Like you (and others) said - make experience count for something, allow you to 'train up', and so on.
Mike
Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
IMO the jk system was far better than jk2's :)
I'm just hoping that DeusEx2 and JA signal the return to the open-ness of DeusEx1 and JK1 ... the whole 'Q3-Engine Era' has seemed to be about games that are very graphically nice and realistic with great sound and controls, but also shorter, more linear, less interactive than the previous era ... and they offered the same level of character creation and interaction with the characters' progression (i.e. none). JO stands out because at least your character *does* progress, you just have no say over what that progression looks like.
Mike
Originally posted by Blademaster_109
I hope you get to use ur character force powers.
By this do you mean that when you go from [SP] to [MP], you transfer not just the character but also your powers?
That would be a problem for those who don't play [SP][ at all, or play alongside [MP], don't you think?
Not that its' a bad thought, though ...
Here's an interesting idea - character creation for [MP] with a force power setup that 'gracefully scales' to the point allocation of a server. In other words, you would go into a 'Record Force Allocation Priority' mode, then click the powers and levels in the order you would like them added, so that when you hit a server with 66 points rather than 72 (e.g.), your setup knows that level 3 jump will be lost. What do you think?
Mike
Originally posted by txa1265
I'm just hoping that DeusEx2 and JA signal the return to the open-ness of DeusEx1 and JK1 ... the whole 'Q3-Engine Era' has seemed to be about games that are very graphically nice and realistic with great sound and controls, but also shorter, more linear, less interactive than the previous era ... and they offered the same level of character creation and interaction with the characters' progression (i.e. none). JO stands out because at least your character *does* progress, you just have no say over what that progression looks like.
Mike
That's a common failure in games and movies today: style over substance. All flashy graphics and visuals, big cool-looking explosions, but nothing terribly compelling about it and/or a cursory story. I can rattle off plenty of films that have come out in recent years which were big on spectacle and VERY short on plot/character development. I think the same thing has been seen (albeit in a slightly different way) in the gaming industry. It's always been true that Id Software's own games have laughable "storylines" and are more about killing things in a particular environment (although Q2 was a nice departure to a degree). Q3 is a perfect example. Single player was basically just multiplayer with bots. Frankly, I never really liked Q3 as a game, but as an engine, it let you do some cool things. However, it always seemed to be more focused on multiplayer than on single player. You don't need a story or writers or any of that stuff for multiplayer. You just point and shoot and hope that the explosion looks pretty.
For a while, I think we've seen a number of games that had either no story or a very linear, rides-on-rails kind of story. Even some of Ravens own games have been like this. Soldier of Fortune seemed less about the story itself (although there was a story present) and more about killing people VERY graphically in a bunch of different environments. Elite Force had a good story, actually, but was still very linear. Games like the MOHAA series for the PC are other examples of this trend. They were much more about setting and set pieces of action than about a compelling story. IE: most people remember the "Saving Pvt. Ryan" level of MOHAA (Omaha Beach), but as a part of a story itself, it didn't really do anything. It was just a cool place to have a level. There was also very little about the MOHAA games that was dynamic.
I think what we're seeing in games, or at least what we can HOPE to see in games, is a new style of game. Part of the problem with the abovementioned games is their focus and the mindset that went into designing them. On the one hand, you have the multiplayer-focused games like Q3 and UT. These games decided to focus almost exclusively on what made for good multiplayer action, and they did a terrific job, depending on your tastes (I was always more of a UT fan, myself). Games like MOHAA, Elite Force, Soldier of Fortune, RTCW, and even JO were wedded to an older paradigm for single player games, where the player plays through a set series of levels. As the player advances, the challenges become more difficult, but the player is given bigger and tougher tools to deal with the challenges. That's it! That's your format. Whether it's getting to the level where you get the rocket launcher, or getting to the level where you're given access to blue stance for sabre fighting, it's all fundamentally the same thing: beat a level, get a new toy. And you HAVE to do it sequentially.
Along the way, there have been other games that stretched the boundaries like Deus Ex or System Shock 2. System Shock 2 I played (I never played Deus Ex), and I have to say that while it was cool, it was also not nearly as visually stimulating as the other games I mentioned. I'm hoping that with JA, we'll start to see a new trend in games where interactivity with the environment, interactivity with your character, and a break from the linear method of playing from level to level to level (talk about Super Mario Bros. comparisons...). I'm sure there will still be plenty of linear-focused FPS games that stick to the format that goes as far back as Wolfenstein 3D (the game that started it all), but I'm very much looking forward to a change of pace. It'd also be nice to see a game where if you pick a particular level, you DON'T get to pick a different level (IE: I pick the mission to Tatooine, which means that the other two missios I could've picked at that stage are opted out). This would require games to be, in a sense, three times as long, though, since you wouldn't want the single player campaign to be over in four missions. But with DVD drives on the rise, why the hell not? Sure it'd take longer in development, but the product would be worth it, I think.
Originally posted by txa1265
By this do you mean that when you go from [SP] to [MP], you transfer not just the character but also your powers?
That would be a problem for those who don't play [SP][ at all, or play alongside [MP], don't you think?
Not that its' a bad thought, though ...
Here's an interesting idea - character creation for [MP] with a force power setup that 'gracefully scales' to the point allocation of a server. In other words, you would go into a 'Record Force Allocation Priority' mode, then click the powers and levels in the order you would like them added, so that when you hit a server with 66 points rather than 72 (e.g.), your setup knows that level 3 jump will be lost. What do you think?
Mike
Good point
Originally posted by txa1265
Only if you found *every secret* did you get any reward ... how frustrating! I agree that it made it interesting to pick and choose your strengths. The problem was that the powers themselves were less useful. JK often made me recall the line 'ancient weapons and hokey religions are no match for a blaster at your side ...'
I hope they find a nice balance with JA. Like you (and others) said - make experience count for something, allow you to 'train up', and so on.
Mike
It was a bit annoying when there was ONE secret you couldn't find.... but i enjoyed exploring those levels anyway. :)
The thing about the force powers, lightsaber and weapons in JK1 was that they were all equally useful... unlike JO where the saber and force powers were invincible and made the weapons pointless. ( i had a rocket launcher for about 2 levels before i even noticed i had gained one. i then used it a whole TWO TIMES in the SP game. :( )
Almost any level in JK1 could be played with the saber, with force powers, with weapons or with any mix of the above. :D
Yeah, JO definitely subscribed to the same style of game design with ever increasing guns/powers the higher your levels go. And yes, when you were finally adept in the force, you didn't need the guns at all (which I thought was kind of cool). Be that as it may, it was still new level, new toys. JK at least let you customize things to a degree, although it also only let you get certain powers at a certain point in the game if memory serves. I suspect JA will operate similarly, although you may pick different powers/weapon loadouts for different missions at the same level. IE: for the next three missions, which you can do in any order you want, you have the option of choosing new levels in Force Push, Force Lightning, or Mind Trick. You can only pick two new levels, though, and you won't actually need any of the powers to complete the levels, although they'll really help and some powers will help more on certain missions than others.
Alternatively, you could be given a set number of assignable stars or a set amount of training sessions that you can undertake before going on the mission, where you'll be able to pick from all of the force powers useable in the game. As the game progresses, you simply undertake more training sessions and can customize your character as you see fit, though obviously certain powers are recommended for certain missions (but you wouldn't be limited in your choices). I think either system would work quite well.
Choosing your own Force powers means the level designers can't make puzzles that rely soley on Force powers, which means there must be alternate solutions, which means there is more replayability per level.
Originally posted by Emon
Choosing your own Force powers means the level designers can't make puzzles that rely soley on Force powers, which means there must be alternate solutions, which means there is more replayability per level.
That was a great thing in Deus Ex and JK. In JK they restricted your possibilities, but you could always choose to put no stars on things. So they couldn't assume you had anything. However, I assume you'll get your 'primary' force powers (push, pull, jump, speed) early on and there will be some assumption of having them. To me that is actually a good thing - don't assume I'll have level 3 anything, or grip/lightning/whatever, but jump 1 or 2 and some level of speed should be a fair assumption for level design.
Mike
Originally posted by txa1265
That was a great thing in Deus Ex and JK. In JK they restricted your possibilities, but you could always choose to put no stars on things. So they couldn't assume you had anything. However, I assume you'll get your 'primary' force powers (push, pull, jump, speed) early on and there will be some assumption of having them. To me that is actually a good thing - don't assume I'll have level 3 anything, or grip/lightning/whatever, but jump 1 or 2 and some level of speed should be a fair assumption for level design.
Mike
I'm pretty they will requite you to have at leats lvl 2 jumping. I like BIG starwarzy levels, and you can't navigate around them without force jump!!
This would require games to be, in a sense, three times as long, though, since you wouldn't want the single player campaign to be over in four missions. But with DVD drives on the rise, why the hell not? Sure it'd take longer in development, but the product would be worth it, I think.
You've hit on one of the big barriers in the games which is content creation. A lot of games have become short, and even the larger games don't take nearly as long to play as something like the original DOOM - even though the levels seem larger.
One solution to this would be a subscription service with new levels every month - a more slowly unwrapping story that could take an entire year to play. Looking at the time it took to build JA vs. the cost of the game vs. even a small monthly subscription for a year, I believe a company could make it work. Releasing a game that's about as long as JA and then about 2 months later adding monthly content as time rolls along - you could build a pretty impressive game over time - provided you built an engine that could integrate the RPG aspects of the game into the levels.
The point is, that developers can't work for free!! They have to get paid! So only very succesful games (or games from very rich developers, like EA) get continuous updates :(
If there really would be such a game, it would require a monthly fee I'm sure :( Oh and how much do you think it costs Raven to license the QIII engine? Not as much as when the engine was brand new, but still, far from free of charge I think...
Originally posted by HertogJan
The point is, that developers can't work for free!! They have to get paid! So only very succesful games (or games from very rich developers, like EA) get continuous updates :(
If there really would be such a game, it would require a monthly fee I'm sure :( Oh and how much do you think it costs Raven to license the QIII engine? Not as much as when the engine was brand new, but still, far from free of charge I think...
I'm sure that someone had run the business model for this at some point ... but I have no idea what it would look like. To set up a subscription you'd need to deliver content on a regular basis - say quarterly. You'd need to keep LucasArts plugged in, to get permission for everything. You'd need to employ a small team consisting of mappers, modelers, and so on, as well as allocated testing and QA resources. You'd need to come up with fresh ideas for a 'mission a quarter' or something - and that mission would have to be long enough (a couple of hours or so) to warrant the cost, but not so large that it is overly resource intensive (otherwise no profit).
Not exactly an easy task ...
Back on topic - one of my sons got the 'Star Wars Epic Duels' board game for Christmas, and it has 'special' cards for attack/defense which were about aim and power and movement and such ... and got me thinking. It would be interesting in JA to get the Deus Ex ability to enhance your aim and things like that. Imagine that finding all other secrets on a level opened a final secret area that contained a aim enhancer for a gun, or a fast charge mod for the disrupter or whatever ... and of course you'd still get the extra Force Star ;)
Mike
I'm sure that someone had run the business model for this at some point ... but I have no idea what it would look like. To set up a subscription you'd need to deliver content on a regular basis - say quarterly. You'd need to keep LucasArts plugged in, to get permission for everything. You'd need to employ a small team consisting of mappers, modelers, and so on, as well as allocated testing and QA resources. You'd need to come up with fresh ideas for a 'mission a quarter' or something - and that mission would have to be long enough (a couple of hours or so) to warrant the cost, but not so large that it is overly resource intensive (otherwise no profit).
I'll admit I don't know all the details, but here's a quick business model.
JO - JA ~ 18 mo. @ $50 for a new game.
Ongoing @ $5/month for 18 mo. $90.
The question would probably wind down to how much content would they get out and how often - monthly or quarterly - and how many people would sign up - probably less than would buy the game. I'd probably be willing to shell out $10/month for 2 or 3 good levels a month which would mean $120 a year - which is even more.
Originally posted by txa1265
Back on topic - one of my sons got the 'Star Wars Epic Duels' board game for Christmas, and it has 'special' cards for attack/defense which were about aim and power and movement and such ... and got me thinking. It would be interesting in JA to get the Deus Ex ability to enhance your aim and things like that. Imagine that finding all other secrets on a level opened a final secret area that contained a aim enhancer for a gun, or a fast charge mod for the disrupter or whatever ... and of course you'd still get the extra Force Star ;)
Mike
Yeah, one of the cool things about System Shock 2 and other RPGs like Fallout and Fallout2 was the way you could get upgrades for your weaponry and equipment. This would be a neat feature in a Star Wars game, say, giving you the option of getting a variable length blade for your sabre, a power enhancer for your blaster, or a larger clip (energy pool, I guess) for a particular gun. That sort of thing. It'd make the weapons a bit more varied and would also make the game a bit more replayable.
As for this other idea, it's intriguing, but I wonder about the incremental costs to a development house in taking that road. It may be that doing one big project at a time, rather than smaller projects, is actually more economical because you deal with each stage at once. There's also human resources to factor into this. If your QA people are constantly having to work on the latest module for your ongoing game, will they still have time to be working on your much larger games as well? You might almost have to change the business model for your entire company (IE: change to a company that puts out only incremental games). I'm honestly not sure, since I don't know about game development at that detailed a level.
Originally posted by Solo4114
Yeah, one of the cool things about System Shock 2 and other RPGs like Fallout and Fallout2 was the way you could get upgrades for your weaponry and equipment. This would be a neat feature in a Star Wars game, say, giving you the option of getting a variable length blade for your sabre, a power enhancer for your blaster, or a larger clip (energy pool, I guess) for a particular gun. That sort of thing. It'd make the weapons a bit more varied and would also make the game a bit more replayable.
Imagine a enhancement for your E11 in the first levels of JO that made its' shot description something other than 'forward' ;)
Or something that made your Bryar charge up 2nd for in 1 sec rather than 5 ...
Mike
Exactly. Or something that made the bowcaster and the DEMP, oh, I don't know...useful? :) I can't believe the DEMP is coming back. Unless we're faced with some serious mechanical badguys, that gun just took up space in the game where a cooler gun could've gone.
Hey - I liked the DEMP :) - it took out AT-ST's faster than anything else (not to mention those big robot guys (can't remember the name).
As far as getting "better aim" - I don't know if I like that much - it would take some of the FPS out of it and make it too RPG. Maybe for some guns like the blaster rifle it would make sense - or sniper sway. I do like the idea of getting bigger clips for guns though - that would be a nice power-up.
As far as the subscription service goes - it would mainly be map building - not really engine enhancements, which would have to be done probably on a yearly basis. I was just thinking one day about so many of the good SP maps out there that don't get finished or are just missing that little umph to really be top notch. And of course no one has really invested much time into scripting decent cut-scenes or telling much of a story. My guess is it's not a matter of know how but time - and what better way to make it worth people's time than to pay them for it. Hell I'd start my own little company, but my guess is that licensing fees and the like would be outrageous - not to mention the anti-piracy piece to make sure the maps don't end up everywhere. Just kind of musing into the ether.
Originally posted by Solo4114
Exactly. Or something that made the bowcaster and the DEMP, oh, I don't know...useful? :) I can't believe the DEMP is coming back. Unless we're faced with some serious mechanical badguys, that gun just took up space in the game where a cooler gun could've gone.
I didn't like the bowcaster in SP, but in MP - esp Jedi Master (bye bye in JA) I whoop a** with it ...
DEMP - only good for mechs.
Mike
Originally posted by >BawBag<
The JK system was far superior in terms of replayability. I mean, for every secret that you found you could amend your powers as a reward, but after once playing through JKII you knew what powers were going to advance.
I have to agree with you. I did prefer JK’s Force level-up over JO’s. That extra level of control allowed you to fine-tune your powers as you saw fit, with the option to completely ignore some Force powers if you wished. And JK automatically placed Force stars in the powers you would have to use in certain parts of the game, so you could never get stuck. When you think about it, JK was extremely forgiving in it’s setup and design.
But in academy they could have considered things like kills, accuracy etc. along with secrets discovered to boost your knowledge of the force, it would give people an extra incentive to play through a few times.
I’m not sure how that would work. I don’t see how your accuracy with a weapon, or number of ‘kills’ would improve your knowledge of the Force. I can see a better connection if you had choices in how to get past some obstacles, and consistently use Force powers to help you progress…so you advance more rapidly in the Force that way, by actually using it. I suppose you could equate it with a game like Dungeon Siege, where the more you use a particular ability (like melee combat), the better you gradually become at that ability. To my mind, that would make a great deal more sense in terms of Force powers. If you want to be able to jump higher…then you need to use Force jump more often early on to build up that ‘ability’. You could still then have the game ‘take control’ and increase certain abilities automatically to a bare minimum if the next level requires it – although to be honest I’d prefer more choices in how to get past an obstacle, so you can’t really get stuck because you don’t have a particular Force power.
Originally posted by Solo4114
Actually, I always thought it'd be better if you rewarded not just finding secrets, but playing a particular role once you have the ability to choose light or dark side. Assuming you're a student at the academy, you're presumably going to be picking light side, so saving innocents, resolving things without violence, etc. would be rewarded, but would take a while for you to advance (and would make you REALLY powerful once you got up to a particular level). Alternatively, if you chose to resolve things through an exercise of raw power, if you chose killing everyone in the level, and if you don't mind killing a few innocents on the way, then you'll gain darkside levels quickly, but will plateau out after a certain point. That way you'd be rewarded not just for doing things like finding secrets, but for playing true to a particular side of the force.
I like this idea, and I agree that it would be a bit more ‘realistic’ in the context of the role you are playing. It follows on from what I said above, and reintroduces the ‘moral code’ of play that was only really touched on in Jedi Knight. If they had revitalised the morality aspect, and improved it along the lines you indicated, then Jedi Outcast could have been a very different type of game. As we know, in JA you will simply ‘pick’ your Force powers (which is better than nothing), but it is still a far cry from what could be achieved by introducing the moral elements. Considering the game has some more of those RPG-lite elements (like character customisation, etc.), it seems almost strange they didn't decide to go that next step further. Not to turn the game into an RPG, but to make it even more of a hybrid, like Deus Ex. Genre-mixing, like this, is nothing to be sneezed at, and can deliver an excellent gameplay experience if properly developed and implemented. I know that games like Deus Ex are not to everyone’s liking, but I did like that game a lot, myself, and JK certainly showed the hallmarks of what was possible. I think it’s a missed opportunity, along with potentially increasing (rather than axing) stealth elements. As far as stealth goes, I don’t think the engine could handle it, and it wasn’t enough of a priority to make the necessary changes (assuming they could have been made to an acceptable standard). Jedi Outcast could have been so much more interesting if the levels had been designed with stealth in mind, so you could truly sneak into a base, achieve an objective, and then if necessary, fight your way out again. The problem again lies in the linearity of design, not only in terms of the levels, but in the way that your ‘enemies’ don’t actually move around. I would have much preferred having Mind Trick earlier on, and using it more effectively to get through sections of a level without simply killing everyone. As it is, JA will have practically no opportunity for stealth, and while I don’t mind action and combat, but surely the teachings at the Jedi Academy would be to use violence only as a last resort, not a first (and only) choice. I wouldn’t even raise the issue if JA had a similar concept and structure to JO…but it doesn’t, and from my POV demands an even more radical approach, to include greater stealth elements, particularly for a Padawan learner sent on dangerous missions. Maybe it’s something they could consider for another game in the series.
Originally posted by txa1265
Only if you found *every secret* did you get any reward ... how frustrating! I agree that it made it interesting to pick and choose your strengths. The problem was that the powers themselves were less useful. JK often made me recall the line 'ancient weapons and hokey religions are no match for a blaster at your side ...'
Hmmm, I think I know what you mean. The problem in JK for me was that some of the more useful powers seemed to be unlocked quite late in the game, and so you only had limited use of them. Things like Persuasion would have been nice to have earlier on, to bypass some enemies in the early stages, rather than have to fight them all. Some people might consider that having some of the powers earlier on would make the game easier, and that would be right if the other gameplay mechanics remained exactly the same. But this need not be the case if the game is carefully designed and balanced enough to take a wider range of skills into consideration for each stage of the game.
I do agree that it was a bit annoying that you had to find all of the secrets on a level to get some extra Force stars. I would have preferred something similar to way they’ve done it with Elite Force 2, to be honest. You collect ‘starships’ as you go along (obviously hidden in secret areas), and X amount of starships allows you to unlock a secret level. There are something like 8 secret levels to unlock. Now, if Force stars had been cumulative, you could have collected, say, 5 stars, and then been able to pick a new Force power, or upgrade an existing one. This would have been a far more effective, and rewarding method, in my view. Or you could simply limit the number of Force stars on a level to 2 or 3 (while still having more secret areas), and you just spend the number of Force stars you found in that level on the Force power of your choice. I’d actually prefer the latter method, I think, and I’d definitely like to see a return to having the choice to allocate Force stars to Force powers of my own choice to upgrade them as I went along. Collecting Force stars may not make sense in the real world, but in a game context I find it perfectly acceptable, manageable and workable.
I'm just hoping that DeusEx2 and JA signal the return to the open-ness of DeusEx1 and JK1 ... the whole 'Q3-Engine Era' has seemed to be about games that are very graphically nice and realistic with great sound and controls, but also shorter, more linear, less interactive than the previous era ... and they offered the same level of character creation and interaction with the characters' progression (i.e. none). JO stands out because at least your character *does* progress, you just have no say over what that progression looks like.
Yet again, I have to agree. I can’t share your hope about JA though. Although JA promises to be less linear, and has some interesting features and a return to more choices, it still does not have the scope of choice that was available in JK, particularly in relation to the Force powers. Less linear levels, and less linear mission progression has to be applauded, and is very welcome, but I still feel as if they have not taken a step far enough along that particular road.
Originally posted by Solo4114
Along the way, there have been other games that stretched the boundaries like Deus Ex or System Shock 2. System Shock 2 I played (I never played Deus Ex), and I have to say that while it was cool, it was also not nearly as visually stimulating as the other games I mentioned. I'm hoping that with JA, we'll start to see a new trend in games where interactivity with the environment, interactivity with your character, and a break from the linear method of playing from level to level to level (talk about Super Mario Bros. comparisons...). I'm sure there will still be plenty of linear-focused FPS games that stick to the format that goes as far back as Wolfenstein 3D (the game that started it all), but I'm very much looking forward to a change of pace. It'd also be nice to see a game where if you pick a particular level, you DON'T get to pick a different level (IE: I pick the mission to Tatooine, which means that the other two missios I could've picked at that stage are opted out). This would require games to be, in a sense, three times as long, though, since you wouldn't want the single player campaign to be over in four missions. But with DVD drives on the rise, why the hell not? Sure it'd take longer in development, but the product would be worth it, I think.
I totally agree. We are still seeing some very linear games being developed, and while they may very well deliver an enjoyable gaming experience, and can still be acceptable as a form of gameplay, I would definitely like to see more games buck the old trends in favour of something new.
I don’t think JA is going to revolutionise things in a big way with it’s selectable mission format, but it’s certainly a welcome change from the norm, and even a step beyond Deus Ex. DX still had a linear level progression, but excelled in giving you multiple paths and choices to achieve your objectives within those levels.
The idea of making a choice between missions, and having the other mission then removed as a choice, would also be a natural progression, and allow for even greater replay opportunities. As you stated, though, it would mean making a considerable number of missions at the outset, so that your ‘limited selection’ still equates to a fairly long and enjoyable gaming experience. I can’t actually see this idea being adopted by any game developers. I think Raven has made a smarter move in this context…you can miss a mission per tier, if you wish, but at the expense of a possible additional Force power. I think they said you could get through by just playing about 80% of all available levels, which seems quite acceptable to me. Personally, I’ll be trying all of the available missions…but as you say, if one of those missions per tier became ‘unavailable’ according to your choices, then it could encourage you to play through the game at least a second if not a third time, to see what you missed, and make some different choices. This kind of flexibility is definitely something I think more of the gaming industry needs to take on board in future developments, because as my gaming preferences change, I find myself starting to avoid games that I think are going to be too linear. I know that Doom 3 is going to be a very linear experience, and I suspect Max Payne 2 will follow in the footsteps of it’s predecessor in this regard, and I am not looking forward to those games as much as I am games like JA, Far Cry, STALKER, Deus Ex 2 and Thief 3. Even Half-Life 2 is supposed to allow a more open design and multiple paths to objectives.
The fundamental principle here is that games don’t have to be linear. Game worlds can be as open as the developer allows…and the story need not suffer as a consequence if enough thought goes into it’s implementation via a more freeform design.
Originally posted by toms
Almost any level in JK1 could be played with the saber, with force powers, with weapons or with any mix of the above.
Now that you mention it, yes, you’re right. In JK I didn’t find myself relying just on Force powers and saber…I kept switching between everything in my arsenal to suit each encounter or obstacle. In JO, the saber+Force combination was definitely very powerful, and negated the usefulness of many of the weapons. I still used guns, but definitely not as much after I’d gained more Force levels, and practised a bit with the saber. With an even greater emphasis on these particular elements in JA, I’m still quite surprised they are expanding the arsenal of guns, instead of reducing it. I don’t really have a problem if the number of guns is reduced, if they are going for a particular style of play…i.e., more like a proper Jedi, and less like a rogue mercenary. Kyle’s background and story are different, and so the diverse arsenal fit very well with him and his past experience. From a Padawan’s stand-point, however, a large array of guns would seem a less obvious choice, even under Kyle’s tutelage. I’m not saying there should be no choice of blasters…but I would expect it to be more limited. Perhaps they will limit the scope for blaster use in SP in other ways, such as reducing the amount of ammo lying around, so in effect you can use a wide variety of weapons, but only in a limited context. In a way, that would be a little more realistic, while not limiting you to Saber alone.
Originally posted by Solo4114
I suspect JA will operate similarly, although you may pick different powers/weapon loadouts for different missions at the same level. IE: for the next three missions, which you can do in any order you want, you have the option of choosing new levels in Force Push, Force Lightning, or Mind Trick. You can only pick two new levels, though, and you won't actually need any of the powers to complete the levels, although they'll really help and some powers will help more on certain missions than others.
Alternatively, you could be given a set number of assignable stars or a set amount of training sessions that you can undertake before going on the mission, where you'll be able to pick from all of the force powers useable in the game. As the game progresses, you simply undertake more training sessions and can customize your character as you see fit, though obviously certain powers are recommended for certain missions (but you wouldn't be limited in your choices). I think either system would work quite well.
I don’t think it will necessarily be the case that Force powers won’t be needed to complete levels, especially with later levels. This is one of the reasons why you get the tiered approach…because you’ll need Force powers from the previous tier in the next tier, and so on. I am also going to assume that you get a couple of standard Force powers to kick start you right at the very beginning (Speed and Jump, probably), because they will probably be needed throughout the game to overcome certain obstacles. Obviously, the Forces you choose should affect the gameplay to a certain extent, and I’m hoping the mission design is open enough that it caters for this kind of variety. I would expect at least a few opportunities in each level to use any of the Force powers within that tier, so in a way, you’re right that having the wrong Force power in such an instance won’t bar you from completing the mission, but it may bar you from finding a particular secret area, or gaining access to a particular area.
As for the idea of training sessions, I’d really like to see it. If you return to the Jedi Academy between most of the missions, then I’d hate to see the opportunity wasted to try out new Force powers, new saber moves and new weapons in the training areas. As I stated in other posts, the Jedi Academy needs to feel alive, and populated, and actually serving the purpose for which it was established – training new Jedi.
Originally posted by txa1265
That was a great thing in Deus Ex and JK. In JK they restricted your possibilities, but you could always choose to put no stars on things. So they couldn't assume you had anything. However, I assume you'll get your 'primary' force powers (push, pull, jump, speed) early on and there will be some assumption of having them. To me that is actually a good thing - don't assume I'll have level 3 anything, or grip/lightning/whatever, but jump 1 or 2 and some level of speed should be a fair assumption for level design.
Yeah, I agree. As I said above, though, I think that’s where the ‘tiers’ come in. The missions in the second tier will assume you have X, Y, Z powers, and should be designed accordingly, and the same goes for the third tier. They may not know exactly which Force power you are missing per tier (if you choose not to complete all missions), but if you have 80% of Force powers from each tier, they can certainly design the levels in the next tier within that context. So I don’t think it will go as far as assuming you don’t have a particular Force power, and allowing multiple ways to overcome obstacles, unfortunately. I think you’re right about the ‘primary’ force powers, and that you will be required to use these throughout the game to complete all of the missions. In a way, this is similar to the way JK gave you a particular power at a certain point in the game, because you would need it on that level. Where I can see variation is in powers that are not really required for ‘environmental puzzle solving’, like lighting or grip or absorb, etc. They may help you in combat, but won’t really affect your ability to overcome an obstacle, whereas not having Jump or Speed might prevent you from completing the game.
Originally posted by txa1265
Back on topic - one of my sons got the 'Star Wars Epic Duels' board game for Christmas, and it has 'special' cards for attack/defense which were about aim and power and movement and such ... and got me thinking. It would be interesting in JA to get the Deus Ex ability to enhance your aim and things like that. Imagine that finding all other secrets on a level opened a final secret area that contained a aim enhancer for a gun, or a fast charge mod for the disrupter or whatever ... and of course you'd still get the extra Force Star
I really like this kind of idea, but then I really liked Deus Ex. ;) Being able to modify weapons as you go along to improve aim, power, etc., would add yet another layer of options to the experience. The problem, though, is having to allow for that extra level of flexibility – and I know it was a major headache in the development of Deus Ex for them to get everything balanced just right so that you could do everything the way you chose. It would also require that when you first start out, everything is inherently neutered to some extent, so that it can be upgraded later. There’s nothing wrong with that, but in terms of the fast-track development process for JA, it would be an unlikely inclusion. I just wish this kind of thing was more of a consideration for this kind of game, because as I stated above, with the emphasis on being a Padawan, there is far more scope for RPG elements like this than in previous outings in this series.
Originally posted by StormHammer
I have to agree with you. I did prefer JK’s Force level-up over JO’s. That extra level of control allowed you to fine-tune your powers as you saw fit, with the option to completely ignore some Force powers if you wished. And JK automatically placed Force stars in the powers you would have to use in certain parts of the game, so you could never get stuck. When you think about it, JK was extremely forgiving in it’s setup and design.
I’m not sure how that would work. I don’t see how your accuracy with a weapon, or number of ‘kills’ would improve your knowledge of the Force. I can see a better connection if you had choices in how to get past some obstacles, and consistently use Force powers to help you progress…so you advance more rapidly in the Force that way, by actually using it. I suppose you could equate it with a game like Dungeon Siege, where the more you use a particular ability (like melee combat), the better you gradually become at that ability. To my mind, that would make a great deal more sense in terms of Force powers. If you want to be able to jump higher…then you need to use Force jump more often early on to build up that ‘ability’. You could still then have the game ‘take control’ and increase certain abilities automatically to a bare minimum if the next level requires it – although to be honest I’d prefer more choices in how to get past an obstacle, so you can’t really get stuck because you don’t have a particular Force power.
I like this idea, and I agree that it would be a bit more ‘realistic’ in the context of the role you are playing. It follows on from what I said above, and reintroduces the ‘moral code’ of play that was only really touched on in Jedi Knight. If they had revitalised the morality aspect, and improved it along the lines you indicated, then Jedi Outcast could have been a very different type of game. As we know, in JA you will simply ‘pick’ your Force powers (which is better than nothing), but it is still a far cry from what could be achieved by introducing the moral elements. Considering the game has some more of those RPG-lite elements (like character customisation, etc.), it seems almost strange they didn't decide to go that next step further. Not to turn the game into an RPG, but to make it even more of a hybrid, like Deus Ex. Genre-mixing, like this, is nothing to be sneezed at, and can deliver an excellent gameplay experience if properly developed and implemented. I know that games like Deus Ex are not to everyone’s liking, but I did like that game a lot, myself, and JK certainly showed the hallmarks of what was possible. I think it’s a missed opportunity, along with potentially increasing (rather than axing) stealth elements. As far as stealth goes, I don’t think the engine could handle it, and it wasn’t enough of a priority to make the necessary changes (assuming they could have been made to an acceptable standard). Jedi Outcast could have been so much more interesting if the levels had been designed with stealth in mind, so you could truly sneak into a base, achieve an objective, and then if necessary, fight your way out again. The problem again lies in the linearity of design, not only in terms of the levels, but in the way that your ‘enemies’ don’t actually move around. I would have much preferred having Mind Trick earlier on, and using it more effectively to get through sections of a level without simply killing everyone. As it is, JA will have practically no opportunity for stealth, and while I don’t mind action and combat, but surely the teachings at the Jedi Academy would be to use violence only as a last resort, not a first (and only) choice. I wouldn’t even raise the issue if JA had a similar concept and structure to JO…but it doesn’t, and from my POV demands an even more radical approach, to include greater stealth elements, particularly for a Padawan learner sent on dangerous missions. Maybe it’s something they could consider for another game in the series.
Hmmm, I think I know what you mean. The problem in JK for me was that some of the more useful powers seemed to be unlocked quite late in the game, and so you only had limited use of them. Things like Persuasion would have been nice to have earlier on, to bypass some enemies in the early stages, rather than have to fight them all. Some people might consider that having some of the powers earlier on would make the game easier, and that would be right if the other gameplay mechanics remained exactly the same. But this need not be the case if the game is carefully designed and balanced enough to take a wider range of skills into consideration for each stage of the game.
I do agree that it was a bit annoying that you had to find all of the secrets on a level to get some extra Force stars. I would have preferred something similar to way they’ve done it with Elite Force 2, to be honest. You collect ‘starships’ as you go along (obviously hidden in secret areas), and X amount of starships allows you to unlock a secret level. There are something like 8 secret levels to unlock. Now, if Force stars had been cumulative, you could have collected, say, 5 stars, and then been able to pick a new Force power, or upgrade an existing one. This would have been a far more effective, and rewarding method, in my view. Or you could simply limit the number of Force stars on a level to 2 or 3 (while still having more secret areas), and you just spend the number of Force stars you found in that level on the Force power of your choice. I’d actually prefer the latter method, I think, and I’d definitely like to see a return to having the choice to allocate Force stars to Force powers of my own choice to upgrade them as I went along. Collecting Force stars may not make sense in the real world, but in a game context I find it perfectly acceptable, manageable and workable.
Yet again, I have to agree. I can’t share your hope about JA though. Although JA promises to be less linear, and has some interesting features and a return to more choices, it still does not have the scope of choice that was available in JK, particularly in relation to the Force powers. Less linear levels, and less linear mission progression has to be applauded, and is very welcome, but I still feel as if they have not taken a step far enough along that particular road.
I totally agree. We are still seeing some very linear games being developed, and while they may very well deliver an enjoyable gaming experience, and can still be acceptable as a form of gameplay, I would definitely like to see more games buck the old trends in favour of something new.
I don’t think JA is going to revolutionise things in a big way with it’s selectable mission format, but it’s certainly a welcome change from the norm, and even a step beyond Deus Ex. DX still had a linear level progression, but excelled in giving you multiple paths and choices to achieve your objectives within those levels.
The idea of making a choice between missions, and having the other mission then removed as a choice, would also be a natural progression, and allow for even greater replay opportunities. As you stated, though, it would mean making a considerable number of missions at the outset, so that your ‘limited selection’ still equates to a fairly long and enjoyable gaming experience. I can’t actually see this idea being adopted by any game developers. I think Raven has made a smarter move in this context…you can miss a mission per tier, if you wish, but at the expense of a possible additional Force power. I think they said you could get through by just playing about 80% of all available levels, which seems quite acceptable to me. Personally, I’ll be trying all of the available missions…but as you say, if one of those missions per tier became ‘unavailable’ according to your choices, then it could encourage you to play through the game at least a second if not a third time, to see what you missed, and make some different choices. This kind of flexibility is definitely something I think more of the gaming industry needs to take on board in future developments, because as my gaming preferences change, I find myself starting to avoid games that I think are going to be too linear. I know that Doom 3 is going to be a very linear experience, and I suspect Max Payne 2 will follow in the footsteps of it’s predecessor in this regard, and I am not looking forward to those games as much as I am games like JA, Far Cry, STALKER, Deus Ex 2 and Thief 3. Even Half-Life 2 is supposed to allow a more open design and multiple paths to objectives.
The fundamental principle here is that games don’t have to be linear. Game worlds can be as open as the developer allows…and the story need not suffer as a consequence if enough thought goes into it’s implementation via a more freeform design.
Now that you mention it, yes, you’re right. In JK I didn’t find myself relying just on Force powers and saber…I kept switching between everything in my arsenal to suit each encounter or obstacle. In JO, the saber+Force combination was definitely very powerful, and negated the usefulness of many of the weapons. I still used guns, but definitely not as much after I’d gained more Force levels, and practised a bit with the saber. With an even greater emphasis on these particular elements in JA, I’m still quite surprised they are expanding the arsenal of guns, instead of reducing it. I don’t really have a problem if the number of guns is reduced, if they are going for a particular style of play…i.e., more like a proper Jedi, and less like a rogue mercenary. Kyle’s background and story are different, and so the diverse arsenal fit very well with him and his past experience. From a Padawan’s stand-point, however, a large array of guns would seem a less obvious choice, even under Kyle’s tutelage. I’m not saying there should be no choice of blasters…but I would expect it to be more limited. Perhaps they will limit the scope for blaster use in SP in other ways, such as reducing the amount of ammo lying around, so in effect you can use a wide variety of weapons, but only in a limited context. In a way, that would be a little more realistic, while not limiting you to Saber alone.
I don’t think it will necessarily be the case that Force powers won’t be needed to complete levels, especially with later levels. This is one of the reasons why you get the tiered approach…because you’ll need Force powers from the previous tier in the next tier, and so on. I am also going to assume that you get a couple of standard Force powers to kick start you right at the very beginning (Speed and Jump, probably), because they will probably be needed throughout the game to overcome certain obstacles. Obviously, the Forces you choose should affect the gameplay to a certain extent, and I’m hoping the mission design is open enough that it caters for this kind of variety. I would expect at least a few opportunities in each level to use any of the Force powers within that tier, so in a way, you’re right that having the wrong Force power in such an instance won’t bar you from completing the mission, but it may bar you from finding a particular secret area, or gaining access to a particular area.
As for the idea of training sessions, I’d really like to see it. If you return to the Jedi Academy between most of the missions, then I’d hate to see the opportunity wasted to try out new Force powers, new saber moves and new weapons in the training areas. As I stated in other posts, the Jedi Academy needs to feel alive, and populated, and actually serving the purpose for which it was established – training new Jedi.
Yeah, I agree. As I said above, though, I think that’s where the ‘tiers’ come in. The missions in the second tier will assume you have X, Y, Z powers, and should be designed accordingly, and the same goes for the third tier. They may not know exactly which Force power you are missing per tier (if you choose not to complete all missions), but if you have 80% of Force powers from each tier, they can certainly design the levels in the next tier within that context. So I don’t think it will go as far as assuming you don’t have a particular Force power, and allowing multiple ways to overcome obstacles, unfortunately. I think you’re right about the ‘primary’ force powers, and that you will be required to use these throughout the game to complete all of the missions. In a way, this is similar to the way JK gave you a particular power at a certain point in the game, because you would need it on that level. Where I can see variation is in powers that are not really required for ‘environmental puzzle solving’, like lighting or grip or absorb, etc. They may help you in combat, but won’t really affect your ability to overcome an obstacle, whereas not having Jump or Speed might prevent you from completing the game.
I really like this kind of idea, but then I really liked Deus Ex. ;) Being able to modify weapons as you go along to improve aim, power, etc., would add yet another layer of options to the experience. The problem, though, is having to allow for that extra level of flexibility – and I know it was a major headache in the development of Deus Ex for them to get everything balanced just right so that you could do everything the way you chose. It would also require that when you first start out, everything is inherently neutered to some extent, so that it can be upgraded later. There’s nothing wrong with that, but in terms of the fast-track development process for JA, it would be an unlikely inclusion. I just wish this kind of thing was more of a consideration for this kind of game, because as I stated above, with the emphasis on being a Padawan, there is far more scope for RPG elements like this than in previous outings in this series.
Fantastic and detailed post, I wish I could do that with my time.
since there will be vehicles in JA then teh demp is almost a must ;)
Speaking of force powers...
I was playing the other day and dinking around with the different force levels. Most of them increase power in a fairly natural way - except one: Pull.
Has anyone switched between force pull 2 & 3? 2 seems so weak compared to 3. You have to aim directly at the victim and you might pull him down or pull his weapon but that's about it. It's nearly useless for grabbing items up like 3 is. 3 is so powerful you can yank an entire platoon hundreds of feet in the air where they crash to their death. There's a huge gap between the two force levels that doesn't exist in any of the others (push for instance). I hope they fix that for the game.
By the way, anyone know what's up with the point system? Everyone's at zero - did they kill it?
Yeah pull is a very extreme example of this. Push is relatively well balanced, but pull lvl 2 still is pretty useless, because it's as "efective" as lvl 1, but with the added ability to pull the weapons from enemies hands...
yeah. in sp it was silly.... you could walk into a room, pull the weapons from the hands of a whole platoon and then slice them up at your leisure as they ran around like fools... they need to add in the ability for disarmed troopers to either run after their weapons, to fight hand to hand or to draw pistols or something.
I always thought pull Lvl 3 was too powerful... you should have to actually aim at the weapons to pull them, not just in the general direction. :(
Well, some of them did re-arm themselves, and higher troops wouldn't lose their weapons. But I'd love to see them fight hand to hand like in MotS ... that was such a cool change from JK. I remember playing it, pulling away guns and moving to the next guy - only to start taking damage from behind where the first guy was punching me!
There were threads here about the mis-match of push/pull at level3. Personally I think Puch 3 was too weak and Pull3 too strong. Example: stealth level on Cairn, where the elevator is coming up and you can pull-throw the whole lot of them to their death, having to deal with 1 or at most 2. Push - like from Ep1:TPM where they destroy droids, I'd like push 3 to certainly have lethal potential.
Perhaps Dark powers should make a big jump in power at level 2 and small jump at level 3, whereas light powers would make a smaller jump in strength at level 2 and a bigger jump at level 3.
Mike
Ditto - I want push 2 to be more powerful. I think you should be aiming at someone's weapon to pull it out and only one at a time. I also think pull 3 should be a little more limited in how high you can pull people - although I have to admit it was really fun :).
And push should start doing damage at level 2 at least - and be fairly lethal at 3. It was too weak - and I think at 3 had too wide an arc.
Originally posted by Reprehence
Ditto - I want push 2 to be more powerful. I think you should be aiming at someone's weapon to pull it out and only one at a time. I also think pull 3 should be a little more limited in how high you can pull people - although I have to admit it was really fun :).
And push should start doing damage at level 2 at least - and be fairly lethal at 3. It was too weak - and I think at 3 had too wide an arc.
Yes, I tend to agree, and I still think this sort of think could be addressed by bringing back the ability to 'power up' your Force, like you could with Force Jump in JK. Or even in a similar way to JO's Jump, where the longer you hold down a key, the higher your jump depending on your Force level.
So a quick tap on a key pulls a weapon from someone's hand...but if you power it up, you pull them over...and if you power it up more, you pull over several enemies at the same time. The same sort of thing could be done for Push. A quick tap on the key pushes over one enemy...but powered up it pushes over several.
It's not as if there are not already weapons that you can power up in secondary fire mode, so implementing this kind of thing for the Force powers again would not be too outlandish.
id seemed silly that you could casually pull the weapons from groups of most people, but some people you just couldn't.
I'd also go for the "hold down" approach. With tougher enemies hanging onto their weapons for longer. You could have a cool animation of them hanging onto their weapon and being dragged slowly towards you until they finally let go. :D
How about a double tap system. You point at someone and press the button.... and it only affects them (holding down the button for longer effect)
you double tap the button and it affects a wider arc (again holding down for more power) but with less power and more force drain.
this could work for other force powers like persuasion and push too...
I know this is a strange analogy, but in the interest or making the game playable for new players as well as for ... seasoned players like us, perhaps they could adopt a system like Golf games like Links have. By that I mean having an 'Easy Force' check box, which would then be a 1-press full use system. For experts, you disable this, and you get the double press and power-up effects. That could even be in the training, or integrated into the difficulty settings.
I have no idea how that would work in MP ...
Mike
I can't believe the DEMP is coming back. Unless we're faced with some serious mechanical badguys, that gun just took up space in the game where a cooler gun could've gone.
The DEMP2 was great for multiplayer, after all it was unblockable after all.
Originally posted by Kurgan
quote:
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I can't believe the DEMP is coming back. Unless we're faced with some serious mechanical badguys, that gun just took up space in the game where a cooler gun could've gone.
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The DEMP2 was great for multiplayer, after all it was unblockable after all.
And even for SP it was very useful against the mechs and AT-ST's. I'd take the DEMP 10:1 over the Flechette and Merr-Sonn ...
... and as I said elsewhere, in the context of JA's supposed load-out scheme it is interesting having specialized weapons ...
I didn't realize it was unblockable in [MP] ... guess that shows how much I play ;)
Mike
The DEMP was very effective against mechs in JO SP :) But I didn't like the gun really... Although it looks a bit like the Jawa gun, it doesn't feel good to me :)
Ah heck, I'm addicted to my saber and E11 anywayz :)
Don't know if this was answered already, but you've got your standard force powers that go up the further you get in to the game, then you've got dark and light force powers. The more missions you take on in the game, the more powers you can get, you can get dark and light powers and choose witch ones you want !
For mutliplayer it's the same as JK2, you can choose the jedi skill, so Jedi Master has the most points you can devide over your powers !!
Originally posted by crazy_elmo
Don't know if this was answered already, but you've ...
If this is related to the warez version, please either refrain from posting or at least use the 'spoiler' tag, as the GAME IS NOT OUT YET!
Mike
How is that a spoiler?? I'm sure all of that is going to be right in the manual. And why must we assume warez when someone gets on here to spend THEIR time anserwing a specific question that was asked. And relatedly, why did you even read this thread if you don't want to know the answer to the question posed in it?
Originally posted by JediCrow
How is that a spoiler?? I'm sure all of that is going to be right in the manual. And why must we assume warez when someone gets on here to spend THEIR time anserwing a specific question that was asked. And relatedly, why did you even read this thread if you don't want to know the answer to the question posed in it?
Hmmm ... the post I replied to looks different than I remember it when I replied. I apologize for that ...
However, the post has a tone that suggests someone who was speaking from memory rather than speculation, which is what I'm sure I reacted (or over-reacted ;) ) to last night. So crazy_elmo, if I mis-read your toine, again I apologize for making an assumption.
We should still be speaking from speculation - which is why I keep looking here. If not, as I said, if it is from knowledge only possible from playing the game, then it should be bracketed in spoiler tags.
Mike