It's quite laughable actually, the Harbor is completely out of control. Is somebody intending to actually make a profit on this site? Or is it non-profit? Either way, would it not be a good idea not to drive users away?

It's all well and grand to shut down threads that don't "contribute" etc., yet what's being done about the whole DJG crap (Which is annoying the crap out of most people) and the polls being changed etc.,? Why isn't this being moderated?

As a user, I expect this to be shut down quite quickly, but I would suggest you stop giving your user priority to the Mods here, and actually give some thought to the majority of the users, who (wow) are not moderators.

Say that I'm just being a nuisance if you want, the fact is a huge percentage of the user base feel like this place is being badly moderated. The moderators don't have to answer to anybody, really, seeing as supermods don't get involved much. Silly threads such as the monkey one are shut down; what do you expect people to do? Come on to a Lucasarts forum and talk about Da Vinci over fine wine and cheese (With crackers)

I'm sorry to be of any trouble, you're probably aware that I've pretty much abandoned this place, but I got a few emails from people on this board giving me updates on what was going on, and they seemed pretty mad about the whole thing. If you wanna keep your user base, you're gonna have to sort something out quickly. And that something certainly doesn't involve altering poll results or peoples custom titles. Or shutting down the 'What Celebrities do you Hate' topic, and replacing it with 'What do you hate about the Harbor'.

Of course, since people have been unhappy for a long time here, and it's fallen on deaf and somewhat egotastical ears, I don't expect any other response other than to have my thread closed with a sarky comment from a Moderator.

Ok -

t's quite laughable actually, the Harbor is completely out of control. Is somebody intending to actually make a profit on this site? Or is it non-profit? Either way, would it not be a good idea not to drive users away?

It's non profit. And the Harbor has driven too many users away. To illustrate the point - one of the main reasons MILegend didn't join this forum was because of the Harbor. Old posters on TSB forums are staying away from the MI forum because of the Harbor. Hopefully that answer all your questions about the volume of users on the forum also.

It's all well and grand to shut down threads that don't "contribute" etc., yet what's being done about the whole DJG crap (Which is annoying the crap out of most people) and the polls being changed etc.,? Why isn't this being moderated?

The polls? Stuff like this has been going on at TSB/Mojo forums since around 1996. Is it overly funny? No, but it's amusing. :¬: <== Just like that's amusing. ;-* Maybe whoever did the title changes went to far, but that's not really related to either this forum or anything moderators could have done with it.

Say that I'm just being a nuisance if you want, the fact is a huge percentage of the user base feel like this place is being badly moderated. The moderators don't have to answer to anybody, really, seeing as supermods don't get involved much.

Actually, we are getting involved now, and we're doing what we should have done from the start, which leads me to...

Silly threads such as the monkey one are shut down; what do you expect people to do? Come on to a Lucasarts forum and talk about Da Vinci over fine wine and cheese (With crackers)

... no, but a little more style wouldn't hurt. :¬: Some silly posts are fine, but the Harbor is way beyond that.

Or shutting down the 'What Celebrities do you Hate' topic, and replacing it with 'What do you hate about the Harbor'.

The point here is that we wanted to use a little bit of sarcasm and irony to tell people why threads are closed and that we're going to start moderating the forums more. Maybe we shouldn't have assumed that people would understand that, but hey. The can always read this post now. ;

:/

Is it overly funny? No, but it's amusing. <== Just like that's amusing. ;-* Maybe whoever did the title changes went to far, but that's not really related to either this forum or anything moderators could have done with it.


It's amusing to the moderators, but on the whole the users don't find it at all funny, especially at a time when all the users and moderators alike are demanding some normality be restored. At least, I THOUGHT the mods were.
Also, two of the people that were changing the custom titles were moderators. I know you can't control them but it still makes the users angry that they're being undermined so hugely.


Actually, we are getting involved now, and we're doing what we should have done from the start, which leads me to...


Getting involved byyy.... closing threads and replacing them with "sarcastic" threads, and messing with poll results.


... no, but a little more style wouldn't hurt. Some silly posts are fine, but the Harbor is way beyond that.

I agree the harbor needs more substance, but if all people have to talk about is the amount of monkeys in south america, then stopping them from talking about that will only result in... no talking at all. There has to be another way in which users can share a common interest, if the problem is that bad. Which it is. It really, really is.


The point here is that we wanted to use a little bit of sarcasm and irony to tell people why threads are closed and that we're going to start moderating the forums more. Maybe we shouldn't have assumed that people would understand that, but hey. The can always read this post now. ;


The sarcasm and irony isn't working :)

Proof?

A whole big bunch of users have left Lucasforums.

And not just small time n00bs either. I'm talking Das Mole, Zoom, Edlib, myself. They've only left until some order is restored (ORDER. I was looking for that word earlier :/) but at the moment the only order being served is "sarcasm and irony". It's a shame because the Harbor users were a lovely, friendly bunch quite nice...

I don't want to just come and shove all this in your face as one big complaint, but there doesn't seem much else to do. People have confronted moderators before about bad decision making while closing topics... Half of my own (usually crap) topics remained open while other, half intellectual ones were closed. But usually when they confront Mods they're just thought of as whining and complaining.

Maybe the Harbor should be completely restarted? From scratch? If need be, I can put time into it. I don't know, we could do cheesy stuff like weekly drawing competitions or... an idea that isn't so lame. Share a common interest throughout the users so conversation can always remain slightly smart. Get the users involved in game making. There are loads of engine out there. RPGmaker, SCUMM, AGS...

It's only a suggestion, but at the moment the Harbor (and entire forum) is clinging by a thread to being completely dead.

I agree the harbor needs more substance, but if all people have to talk about is the amount of monkeys in south america, then stopping them from talking about that will only result in... no talking at all. There has to be another way in which users can share a common interest, if the problem is that bad. Which it is. It really, really is.

By getting more involved we're obviously starting new topics also. Seriously, it's better to have a slower forum than a bunch of messages that makes the majority of users not wanting to post on any of the MI forums at all. That is sadly the case now.

The sarcasm and irony isn't working :)

Well, it was a long shot I guess now, but really, I had expected most Monkey Island people to understand stuff like that.

And not just small time n00bs either. I'm talking Das Mole, Zoom, Edlib, myself.

Again it's too bad that people want to leave because we want to have less lame topics that really only are spam (or at best borderline). However, in the "big scheme" of things the real old-timers left a long time ago, partly because of the Harbor. Not that I'm saying that any of the names above should leave.

Half of my own (usually crap) topics remained open while other, half intellectual ones were closed.

We left most older topics open as they seem to be dying away by themselves.

But usually when they confront Mods they're just thought of as whining and complaining.

At times it is. :¬: When it's not I think we answer. I'm answering now at least. :¬:

Maybe the Harbor should be completely restarted? From scratch? If need be, I can put time into it.<snip>

Personally I find that a good idea, but it's not really up to me. (I'm not trusted to control my own forums :¬: ) Be interested to see what other people think about it.

These are your forums? :confused:

I thought they were just... forums.

Look, I am sorry to bundle this all on you but it's something that needs addressing, nobody is happy here at the moment and everybody wants something else, and something I've noticed is that EVERYbody refers back to "The Oldies."

In the same way as I say, "God, life was better when it was in 256 colours"

This is why I think it needs to go back to the drawing board. In the ideal world, all the oldies come back, the spamming stops and some other stuff happens. We all get free money. My coffee doesn't go cold as quickly. In the real world, it ain't gonna happen.

Also, implementing new rules and cracking down is going to be extremely difficult in the existing forum. By shutting it down for a week, having a reopening and displaying the new rules there, it should be easier.

And I think that some type of common interest should be formed aside from Monkey Island, because there were only four monkey islands and one bad ending, which only allows for a certain level of conversation. People who loved the old games are coming from all different backgrounds and ages, so a common interest is going to be scarce. Let's make one. Anything. Do something new.

And if it doesn't work, at this stage it doesn't matter.

:(

I haven't really left.
I'm still reading, just not posting at the moment.
I'm taking a few days off from posting there, mostly for my own sake.

I will return.

That's a promise or a threat depending on your perspective. ;)

I think most of the good posters have gone on "temporary leave" until the whole thing is resolved :/

But I mean, even if it's resolved and the rules are rules... what then? That's not gonna make conversation FLY out of the heavens for us. We're all gonna be waiting around, our fingers hovering over the keyboard, waiting tentively for somebody else to say something.... like a twisted game of..... Happy families. The FRENCH VERSION.

If the harbor restarts, it'll become... the harbor. Think about it.

I agree, let's give up.

EDIT: Or, let's give it one more go. Is the harbor going to get any better? I don't think so. Not when the mods and members are on such bad terms. I also didn't realise they were RemiO's forums, which puts a whole different light on things.

I mean, you couldddddddddd give up, or you couldddddd not give up. I don't know what you could do yettttttt, but I'm thinkingggggg.

Oh kayyyyy no seriously, start from scratch. Delete every single thread there. Post an entirely new "Read the Rules" thread that everybody can start by not reading. Get rid of all the mods that never come on any more and replace with with new mods, or even no mods at all, and just leave Neil, BG, FC etc.,. It's not like we need a whole huge bunch of mods anyway.

Well, it's not MY forum, as much as a bunch of site's forum, but out of the MI sites, TSB is probably the biggest site that use it. The MI forum that is. :¬:

Also, no offense to anybody or anything, but it seems like the majority of the people who are "boycotting" the forums now are the people who spammed in them the most, instead of sticking around to see what would happen.

As for starting over, as long as people post less spammy messages, I don't think there will be any problems. A lot of people seem to make this into a problem when it's really the opposite.

Indeed. These forums are a merge of multiple site's Monkey Island LucasForums into one, including The Scumm Bar and EscapeMI.

As for the forums dying? I don't think so. Yes, there will be a temporary decline in posts as you can see now. However, this is because people can no longer do what they've done for months on end - spam useless rubbish. When people begin to accept that the Harbour is going to only allow more mature discussion, people will begin to begin posting again.

As RemiO pointed out (and is a well known fact), many people have left or not even joined these forums because of the Harbour. The Harbour is only enjoyed by a select handful of people, anyone else is alienated by all the spam. People often jump straight into the Off-Topic forum instantly when they browse a new board. If they see "WOT COLOUR R U?!?!?" and "WOT PORN STAR R U?!?!" can you imagine what they'd think? They would leave the forum instantly and never return.

The key to getting new members is to have a good off-topic forum that isn't full of bollocks. If people are impressed by that forum they will stick around and use other parts of the forum. I repeat, yes this moderation will harm the forum's activity initially, but it will rise in posts again.

I've also noticed an increase in the "Monkey Island Discussion" forum activity since the harbour got dealt with. That alone shows that shutting down the spam means people are willing to get into more topical and intelligent discussions.

I tried as hard as possible to not say this, but imply it as subtly as possible, and basically the 'oldies' probably caught my drift, but to put it plainly, it was after the forum merge that we started getting problems on the harbor and that's simply because the merge brought in more newbies. Admittedly, the Harbor was dying horribly before the merge and it did pick up which for a while I saw as a good thing, but it turned out to still be not quite right. No offense to the newbies in any way (although I can't really see a way of avoiding that, and you all know how I like to avoid confrontation) and I don't want you to leave. What would be nice would be to calm it down a little. The amount of Monkey's in North America, seriously, this was a stupid topic from the word go. When I first saw that, it confirmed the fact that this site had dropped in quality tremendously.

Yufster, basically, you're asking to restore order into this site, but it is topics like this that take the order away and as harsh as it may seem, the only way to bring that order back would be to close the thread and basically persuade people to come up with better topics. It would be nice if people got the hint, but instead, they just got annoyed which is why we had to come right out and say it. So here it is, have your fun, you don't have to talk about the meaning of life in order to stay on this site, have your funny wild topics about cheese, but I fear this turning into a second Arsen and as much as they like that, we don't. You want to talk about monkey's in north america, by all means, go to Arsen. I'm not saying leave here, but at least all your crazy/funny posts can go there and get the response you want instead of being closed, but you know you can still contribute good things here, even your periods of 'I hate' can have a level of quality in them.

Basically, we're now taking action, it's quite easy for us to bring some order into this forum by closing uneeded threads and the reason we haven't done that up until now is because the patrons of this forum were used to a mixture, but now it's totally gotten out of hand and those patrons have gone. Niko, Feral, Fender, Guybrush112, they were the heart and soul of the place at one point and now all are gone simply because this place got a little too out of control (well, two of them did, but the others would have sooner or later). We still have Natty, although lord only knows what she'll think when she gets back from Sydney.

I've ridden along with this for a long time because from time to time, people can come up with some half decent threads although, admittedly, they change topic so fast, I find myself unsubscribing from a lot of them. I don't post as much as some may have seen. Reason beyond work? Nothing worth posting about.

Oh, and the whold DJG thing, it's an admin who's actually done that to all of the polls (for reasons I don't know, it just seems to be a trend or injoke for all of the polls on mojo and it somehow leaked here when an admin didn't take much of a liking to one of our patrons on a different board) but for all I know there is actually nothing us mods can do, remember, we're right there at the bottom of the ladder for the chain of command (ooh, bad one there).

Well, Neil, you're entitled to your opinion about my *monkeys* thread. I guess my point is, should you force that opinion on the rest of the forum? There is a difference between an editor and a moderator...but it isn't my place to tell you how to be either. Let's just say that I'm used to seeing it done differently, and leave it at that.

True, a humor thread doesn't always strike every member as worthwhile. Some enjoy reading them, get a laugh and sometimes loosen up enough themselves to join in. Such threads don't scare away members with serious topics to post, but give the place a sense of community where people can get to know each other without having to conform to some dry topical conversation. It's been my experience that when serious topics start to dry up and go away on a board, it's because people aren't posting in them anymore. Why? Maybe the topic has been *seriously* talked over already, or maybe the members are tired of having to come up with something intelligent to say in order to stay in the conversation...who knows?

My approach to this environment is the humorous topic, and the american monkeys thread is a perfect example of this. Despite what you had to say about none of the answers being applicable, Neil, there was a serious answer there that was going to be addressed in the conversation: the possibility that monkeys had been hunted to extinction by native americans. In addition to this, I was later going to expand the topic into a bigfoot discussion by suggesting that there was a species of great ape still living in north america. When I do a humorous thread, I don't just post nonsense (as much as it may seem at first glance) but rather bring to the table a point or lesson of some kind. My 'Horse vortex' thread in the Harbor was a good example of this, with everyone involved being introduced to the surrealist Dada art movement of the last century. If you just glance at a topic of mine without reading more deeply, it is is easy to see how one could think it 'spam.' I've encountered this before, and forgive you for thinking so, Neil. ;)

Anyway. :dozey: Enjoy your new *highbrow* Harbor. I'm going somewhere where I can relax and let my guard down.

What, I like talking about the meaning of life and the prospect of genetically engineering dinosaurs from old DNA and possibly some Rhino DNA....

Originally posted by Neil Joshi


Basically, we're now taking action, it's quite easy for us to bring some order into this forum by closing uneeded threads and the reason we haven't done that up until now is because the patrons of this forum were used to a mixture, but now it's totally gotten out of hand and those patrons have gone. Niko, Feral, Fender, Guybrush112, they were the heart and soul of the place at one point and now all are gone simply because this place got a little too out of control (well, two of them did, but the others would have sooner or later). We still have Natty, although lord only knows what she'll think when she gets back from Sydney.


I've been back from Sydney for 2 and a half weeks :p I do agree with everything you've said though gorgeous, and Yufster? I totally adore you :D

Natty, if I was lesbian, I'd totally make out with you. :D :D :D

Originally posted by Yufster
Natty, if I was lesbian, I'd totally make out with you. :D :D :D

Oh definatly :D

*goes off topic*

natty, yuf.. gime a hint, i'd watch ya.

*goes back on topic*

Well, Neil, you're entitled to your opinion about my *monkeys* thread. I guess my point is, should you force that opinion on the rest of the forum? There is a difference between an editor and a moderator...but it isn't my place to tell you how to be either. Let's just say that I'm used to seeing it done differently, and leave it at that.

*still on topic*

(thanks to Zoom!)

I'm going somewhere where I can relax and let my guard down.

i guess everybody has a conclusion!

ps to whom who may concern.. i have a screenshot, a copy and even more. i can prove what you are doing.

Hey Natty, if I were a lesbian, I'd make out with you too, too bad I'm not (dammit!)

Zoom, I guess that your thread could have been turned into something interesting, but when I actually closed it, no one was getting any closer to an answer. And quite simply a topic entitled 'Why care there no monkey's in North america,' the only reason i actually read it was to see how much spam was in it. I didn't like what I saw, sorry. Basically, if you want to have a conversation about bigfoot as the missing link and the Native american theory, don't. No, I'm kidding, do it, just word it better to imply that this was meant to turn into something less spammy.

Okay, well, I probably shouldn’t get involved in this, but here I go.

I am still staying around here, I’m gonna stay around to keep checking if things have cleared up (and they obviously haven’t since this thread exists). I’m not gonna post too much, but we’ll see.

I do agree with neil in the fact that the harbor has decreased in it’s quality, even since I came here about a year ago it’s gotten worse. I did think that it needed to be sorted out once it started happening, but then it sort of crept up on me (as I think it did with many people), and that’s how people saw the harbor, was that it was naturally spammy like that. I don’t really think that people are really mad at you for deciding to moderate the harbor, because that’s actually a good thing, but I do think that people are having more of a feeling of being robbed of comfort and being able to say what they want, because that’s how it’s been, and you’re not really robbing them of anything, because it’s not supposed to be that way, but I know that’s kind of how I feel, and I think that some people may be feeling like that too. It’s kind of like telling a spoiled child that they can’t have everything they feel like having any more, you know? It’s like taking away all of the luxuries that a rich person has away from them. I think it’s hard for some people seeing that kind of luxury of ‘I can do what I want here’ slip through their fingers. I also think that it may be even harder for some of the newer users here, because they’ve known the harbor to be kind of spammy and carefree, and it’s taking what they know and sort of destroying it in a way, while for some of the older people here, they are seeing it as going back to the way it was.

The whole djg thing, I wish would just disappear, people would stop doing that and that everybody would just forget it ever happened, but that’s just a little fantasy because I know it’ll never happen.

I think it’s a great thing that you are now moderating these forums more, but I think there’s a better, easier, less ‘harsh’ way of cleaning up the mi discussion. And that solution is to first close the harbor, and then take everything away, start over again. When you are going to re-open the harbor, make sure that you make more sub-forums. make one for discussions about feelings, or something that you have a particular opinion about, just like you made another sub-forum for games. If you do this, it will help out the harbor, because when you are more organized, the less crap there is floating around. If you make sub-forums for the people that like certain kinds of topics, you’ll keep those certain kinds of topics away from the harbor, and then people will not be scared away. Plus, if you do that, then people will know whether they want to go to that area or not, and there won’t even be a risk of people leaving any more, because they have a good opinion of the harbor, and they just simply stay away from the other topics. I’m sure it would help tremendously to do that, and people would cooperate easier, you could still moderate it more, and then everybody wins in that situation, instead of forbidding those kinds of topics, because if you don’t let them talk about the stuff they want, they’re going to leave, which really just kind of goes against what you want, which is more users.

I don’t know if super-mods can make new sub-forums, but I know that administrators can, and I’m sure you’d be able to find one that would be obliging to help, so don’t say that nobody has the time

I honestly think that is the solution to the problem being faced, and if you don’t want to listen to me, then fine, but I do believe that that is the answer to the problem.

sorry, if i repeated myself a couple of times, but i'm just all worked up, i don't know why, but i am.

It's ok Das, I know what you're saying, it's what I've been trying to say as well. Only you've explained it better.

More sub-forums? I don't like the sound of that. But whatever.

Originally posted by Gabez
More sub-forums? I don't like the sound of that. But whatever.

Got a better idea? Apart from closing down every second topic?

I'm encouraged to see that you guys are continuing a dialogue with the members on your board.

Much better than closing every second topic. ;)

I know I didn't really stick around for long, but I'm leaving this site for good now, because a) whenever I tried to start a conversation that was even remotely intelligent in the Harbor (mainly related to technology and the internet, but hinting at deeper issues.) the threads always went quite ridicously off topic, sometimes in a sickening way.b) I couldn't fit my real online name on (stupid cheap Lucasforums..:mad: ), so Iddidn't even get great first impressions of the site (although I appreciate that that isn't anyone's fault here..) and c) the points system has gone, and I was planning to donate my points to forum members..:( Anyhow, I'll be going back to the site my heart belongs to now... Been nice knowing you all though..

Okay, here is a serious suggestion: post a new 'spam guideline' thread and make it sticky in the Harbor. :)

The whole reason why I pushed the closure apppeal issue was because I wanted to see better interaction between the moderators and members on the forum. Threads were getting closed with little explanation, and I wanted to demonstrate to the members that they could initiate a dialogue themselves. Now...that dialogue may have been slow in coming, but it's going on now, and I appreciate it. All we needed was more open feedback on what exactly the policies on 'spam' were in the Harbor.

This is why I suggest a sticky thread. If newbies don't read it, then close off their topics. :max: What do you guys think?

I wanted to post my opinion on this, so here it is:

I have been here for about two months. I know of the long, loooooong times many of the other users have/had been here, and I feel really, really bad for driving them away, as well as the new and prospective users of the MI Discussion Forum.

Lately, I had been having way too much fun with those lovable rough-and-tumble boys in the Harbor. And so I didn't really stop to think whether it was decent or not because there wasn't really anything else going on and I was bored. At any rate, I was a little upset when the mods started closing threads, because I didn't want to think I had been doing anything wrong. But now I see that they are right and what I'd been contributing actively to was retarded and pointless and stupid and all that.

I hate how sometimes I'm just exactly like a spoiled little kid and have to be shown what I'm doing wrong. I realize that I have many, many faults, (including but not limited to) vicious flirting, murder, being stupid, scary, shallow, vapid, bitchy, and posting numerous little chatty posts and all of these at once.

(I have also a couple of good qualities, among them my fervent adoration of Monkey Island. I kneel humbly before its shrine, hardly daring to raise mine sullied eyes to its splendid glory.)

So in conclusion:

I will try to be good. The Harbor doesn't really have to be a wretched hive of scum and villainy, does it? Whatever the good old times were like, (I have no clue,) let's bring them back through sheer force!

I like Zoom's sticky thread idea. Just post some guidelines and then count on the examples of the other posters, who should, by now, know what is what. Or you could try that without the sticky thread. Whatever. I'm in a fit of submissive optimism right now. :D

One more thing: I think the mods are doing a good job now. Like loving parents, sort of. Except Neil. I love you, Neil. ;)

Am I wrong in thinking that Captain Andy was one of the first to admit that they were wrong. And yes, I think a spam sticky would be a good idea. Worth further discussion anyway.

Well, I wasn't wrong. The Harbor's old policy (as discussed in the moderation feedback thread that's sticky in this forum) clearly gave the impression that just about any topic would fly. The policy changed. :dozey:

I will admit to being a big, fat spammer. :D Yes, I will!

Originally posted by Neil Joshi
Am I wrong in thinking that Captain Andy was one of the first to admit that they were wrong. And yes, I think a spam sticky would be a good idea. Worth further discussion anyway.

I haven't posted anything that I wouldn't have posted in the past. You can't just let people post whatever they want and then 6months later turn around and say it's spam. That's what I'm finding irritating. The mods are sitting around going on about the spam when the forums first merged, but you guys hardly did a thing (I know this doesn't apply to Neil since he wasn't a mod back then) about the spam, and now that it's out of control, you guys wanna sit around and punish those who know no better because you didn't teach them about the good/bad spamming to begin with?

If you suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners corrupted from infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded, sire, but that you first make thieves and then punish them?


You guys make spammers and then punish them. That's what I'm trying to say with the above quote.

Placing blame isnt going to alleviate the situation although I am tempted to suggest that you should practice what you preach.

No-one is being punished, the spam has been cleaned up, the forums have improved, be happy.

*kkrrrk.. watch your six bluebird.. krrrkkrk*

*krrrrrrcks.. roger homebase, no bandits visible. krcrrsk*