I'm hoping the damage model is improved this time around. It was perfect for the Reborn and Dark Jedi....but your basic enemies should be killed instantly the second your lightsaber blade hits them, no matter what stance you're using. Several times I'd hit a Stormtrooper squad leader (with orange pauldron and the Golan Arms FC1 Flechette Launcher) square in the chest with a Yellow-stance-slash, and he'd step back a little and flail his arms, but still be standing. He should have died! The same goes for all gun-wielding enemies.

Also, I hope the damage of your blasters can be improved. It got real annoying having to shoot a stormtrooper 3 or 4 times with the E11 before he went belly-up, or deflecting five of his blasts back into his face before he fell flat on his back. One bolt or saber slash should kill any enemy that's not a huge droid, and not carrying a saber. And having to shoot stormtroopers multiple times in the head is the greatest indignity.

This ludicrous damage model wouldn't happen in real life, and it didn't even happen in the movies, so I say it ought to be addressed. :)

That's true. I hated having to shoot a stormtrooper several times. It's a waste of energy. But I think the makers are trying to keep away from adding too much realism in a game. Maybe the stormtroopers armor has improved and doesn't take just one shot to punch a hole (ex: Shadow Trooper).

Yep, I hated having to slice a trooper two times to kill him, not to mention how many time you had to shoot the guns. I never used guns (except for the Disrupter and thermal detonator) ever again after I got the lightsaber.

I agree, but I hope the reborn and others have a LOT more health? I know it would be unrealistic, but was I the only one wasting pairs of Reborn at a time after a hit or two?

Heck, I found myself even going EASY on them just to have a longer, more enjoyable saber battle!


Thats a no no! :mad:

The developers might say something like, "If you make your enemies die with one shot, that would be too realistic, and the game would be less fun."

But on the other hand, having the slice or blast the hell out of every single enemy isn't really fun either.

And yeah, most of the lightsaber battles were disappointingly short, but I'd rather just put more actual dueling, especially blocking, in there, to lengthen the duels, rather than just resorting to the cheap tactic of giving the bosses ten thousand health points. :p

I agree! The current model is ludacrous! 2 shots to the chest MAX for a ST, but 5? Heck no! We want the inept losers from the movies!

Well, I would personally like to see distance having an effect on death. If I shoot 4 storm troopers infornt of me in the chest - 3 or 4 feet away, i want them to die with each taking one shot. If I am shooting from a vent and hit a stormie, i want him to take it and alert the others while being in shock.

i never used the guns after i got the saber, but it is LUDICRUS how many shots it took to kill them!! i went through the game twice (first time on JK difficulty, 2nd JM) and both times i thought that it was just dumb and for those that wanted to use guns would've HAD to have resorted to the saber.

as for 2 shots with the saber, i didn't actually mind that. i didn't care. i never used any force powers but heal and push (and sometimes grip for a bit of fun ;)) as i thought all the others were too unfair and took the fun away. but i liked the full on battles on the doomgiver where you took on hoards of storm troopers that could kill you if you got too reckless.

as for saber fights being too short, i agree, i usually give everything a chance too lol. the lunge is partly to blame in mp for shorter battles, but meh.

if you want one hit kill enemies, play it on padawn ;). coz it makes JM mode MUCH more enjoyable (even tho its piss after u get the saber :( )

It's stupid to have one hit kills. If you want them, hit the bastard in the head with the E11.

The lunge was very powerfull against reborn etc, the red stance was too. So if you wanted longer fights, you could just uses yellow and blue stance without using the blue lunge! Then they won't die in two strikes. Against stormies I allways used blue, and they died pretty instantly here :confused: :confused:

Seriously I don't have many problems with the damage model. If stormies would have less healthpoints so to speak, it would be boring, OR there would have to be more stormies, which would make the levels crowded... They died soon enough for me :)

For guns, at least in FPS games, it's pretty standard fare these days for people to take 2-3 hits in the body before dying, depending on the gun, and 1 hit in the head. I think that works fine. If you're going to up the damage potential of the guns, then you yourself should take one hit before dying, even with shields and 200 health. Then the game would be a challenge (albeit an annoying one). Maybe they can just include a variable that you can run the game with to simply increase the damage scale by a particular number.

As for sabre combat, I've been saying for a while that any sabre hit should be a kill, at least if it's in the body or head. A solid hit should kill regardless of stance. Glancing blows are ok, they shouldn't kill instantly, but any hit you make should really count. I'd like to see the ability to sever any part of the body, too. I don't think this would be really hard to do, since Raven's already demonstrated similar abilities in SOF and SOF2. As far as making the game more challenging with one hit kills, have it work both ways, and also have the blocking increase, though not to the ridiculous level it was at with 1.04. You should still be able to break through the blocking, but it should be a question of skill to know which stance to use when, and when you do break through, you should kill the enemy instantly.

I found that the GHOUL2 hit system was well in effect in JKII.

From the beginning of Kejim, I was able to 1-hit headshot stormies with the E11, and take down a group at close range with little damage to myself at close range.

Later on, with the saber, I like the way the damage you do scales a bit - I found that when I had enough time to aim and swing I always 1-hit killed, but in a frenzy - like that Bar right after you get the saber - it can be a bit of hit and miss. Later on, like in Cairn, I use few swings and kill many stormies.

I would not want to modify the damage scale too much - otherwise it'd become like one of those tactical shooters, where you get shot once, you're either dead or hurt, twice you're dead. I am playing MoH:Spearhead now and was able to run down the road, get my objective done, and find enough health pickups along the way to live.


Mike

I found that ramping up or down difficulty level didn't affect the enemy's health, it mainly just made their hits do more damage to you. I might be wrong, of course....

There've been times when it took multiple headshots to kill enemies though, and that's just bullcrap. And as for the blasters, I'm not expecting Rainbow Six/tactical shooter damage models (one shot to the enemy's foot kills him!) but I say, one blaster shot to the head, neck, or chest should kill enemies, maybe two or three to the stomach, and if you shoot their limbs, it can still incapacitate them. I'd like to see a system like in Deus Ex -- shoot him in the right arm, and he drops his gun. Shoot them in the leg, and they'll collapse and be fairly incapacitated. Etc. :)

Originally posted by Rassick
There've been times when it took multiple headshots to kill enemies though, and that's just bullcrap. And as for the blasters, I'm not expecting Rainbow Six/tactical shooter damage models (one shot to the enemy's foot kills him!) but I say, one blaster shot to the head, neck, or chest should kill enemies, maybe two or three to the stomach, and if you shoot their limbs, it can still incapacitate them. I'd like to see a system like in Deus Ex -- shoot him in the right arm, and he drops his gun. Shoot them in the leg, and they'll collapse and be fairly incapacitated. Etc. :) First of all. It is important to remember that movies and games are two very different things, and that one doesn't translate to the other easily.

In SP, when attacking stormtroopers and the like. Pretty much any hit I make with the lightsaber is a kill, so I don't see where the problem is there.

Right now, the lightsaber is a one hit kill in red stance in MP, which makes sense. Blue stance is not, and it shouldn't be, because you are essentially tapping your opponant. Like Count Dooku vs. Obi-wan, this should not be fatal. For gameplay, having every hit a kill would mean that red and yellow stance and the special moves would be obsolete, because there would be no reason to use anything other than blue. Why deal with the disadvantages of the other stances when you don't have to? This would make lightsaber combat pretty uninteresting, IMO. You would get an much more spamming of one move than we see now. The variety is nice.

As for blasters, shots to the head do kill faster, and the distance makes a difference. But having blasters be a one hit kill introduces the same problem that the lightsabers would have. Any weapon above the E-11 blaster rifle would be obsolete. There would be no need for the heavier weapons because the smaller ones do the job. Would it be as fun if there was only one or two guns, on top of having only one lightsaber stance?

In the movies, the bad guys are always going to die with one shot, and the good guys aren't. But this doesn't necessarily make good gameplay. :)

Very well put, Prime ...

My other thought on this is - does the game 'cheat' on you for the sake of added difficulty? In JKII I think the answer is generally no. When I have the saber, the only time I don't one hit kill is if I need to block a shot, then I swing again and kill. The only instance I can think of are the few times when a fully charged 2nd function disruptor doesn't kill the stormies on top of the elevators on Cairn - I actually use 2nd function Bryyar for them ... 1-hit kill :) On the other hand, Return to Castle Wolfenstein hands me the same enemies, but by the end I'm emptying 10-12 shots to drop them, when it was 1-2 in the beginning.

Personally, I don't want more 'movie-like', I just want a more extensive and faithful use of the GHOUL2 system. I don't really know how that should work for sabers, but it would be fun to see a one armed stormie limping away ... or crawling away ;) Like in MoHAA where you see soldiers limping around. That's fun - they take health themselves, as well. ANything to make it more immersive (... of course, MoHAA also has rifles spinning at chest level after you drop the soldier :rolleyes: )

Mike

About the damage if you shoot them in the head then they do die in one and with the sabre you can kill them in one if you get there arm or neck/head

Originally posted by txa1265
I just want a more extensive and faithful use of the GHOUL2 system.

And JA is already confirmed to have that. :)

Originally posted by Rassick
And JA is already confirmed to have that. :)

Exactly! That's great - there are points in SoFII where you feel like you can pick off a terrorist's ear with the sniper rifle ... JA will obviously feel different, but it will definitely help.

Mike

Yeah. I wonder just how many dismemberment points they'll add: JK2 had the neck, waist, thighs, knees, shoulders, and wrists.

It'd be cool if JA had real time saber dismemberments that sliced off body parts that are severed by the saber. You could have guys bisected down the middle, or diagonally slashed, removing the head and an arm.

Originally posted by Drivian Taluus
It'd be cool if JA had real time saber dismemberments that sliced off body parts that are severed by the saber. You could have guys bisected down the middle, or diagonally slashed, removing the head and an arm.

Cool ... Yes.

Rated 'T' ... No.

Going to happen (because of above) ... NFW.

Mike

Not necesarily. Episode II had tons of dismemberments like that, but it was only PG. Sure, they were aliens, but I see no reason why JA would be rated higher if it had 'em.

Originally posted by Drivian Taluus
Not necesarily. Episode II had tons of dismemberments like that, but it was only PG. Sure, they were aliens, but I see no reason why JA would be rated higher if it had 'em.

That's reasonable. I guess my brain was still stuck on SoFII mode ... There's no reason you couldn't do a 'Darth Maul' split ... the thought of bisecting a Reborn in slow motion ... sweet ...

Mike

If you ever turned the dismemberment in JKII up to full you can turn a guy into a pile of meaty chunks by simply throwing your saber at 'im. That was so much fun... I hope you can do that in JA

Episode II was practically a bloodbath!!! In the droid factory sequence, Anakin was butchering those Geonosians! If you watch the scene in slow motion, you can see several decapitations, at least one is bisected (cut down the middle, head to groin), and one is crushed by the pile driver and you see all his guts spill out!

My theory is, if your enemies aren't visibly human, it's okay to massacre them. Most of your enemies in JA will be alien scum, and human enemies like Stormtroopers are fully clad in armor. With Reborn, you could see their faces, but all the lightsaber-wielding enemies in JA seem to be wearing helmets that cover their whole heads.
Dehumanization of the enemy makes it more "ok" to kill them.
No worries, then. :)

When their health decreses, your's does, and you don't want another Operation Flashpoint. One hit and you're dead!

I dunno one hit wonders could be good on it but I always saw Jedi's having more than one shot too kill them for good. So I'm all up for decent hit damage ratio's

Originally posted by Rassick
My theory is, if your enemies aren't visibly human, it's okay to massacre them. Most of your enemies in JA will be alien scum, and human enemies like Stormtroopers are fully clad in armor. With Reborn, you could see their faces, but all the lightsaber-wielding enemies in JA seem to be wearing helmets that cover their whole heads.
Dehumanization of the enemy makes it more "ok" to kill them.
No worries, then. :) What an interesting set of moral standards you have! :D

one hit wonders are never good. it detracts from the fun of the game and makes you get more and more frustrated that 800 stormies fired at you and you blocked all but three blasts and died.

Originally posted by MSpencer1313
one hit wonders are never good. it detracts from the fun of the game and makes you get more and more frustrated that 800 stormies fired at you and you blocked all but three blasts and died.

It's also no fun to have to shoot each guy eight times, either.

Originally posted by Drivian Taluus
If you ever turned the dismemberment in JKII up to full you can turn a guy into a pile of meaty chunks by simply throwing your saber at 'im. That was so much fun... I hope you can do that in JA

umm yes i had saberrealisticcombat on (more like rediculasly UNrealistic combat) for maybe 15 minutes, i turned it off for 2 reasons. 1, it makes saber battles SO short coz you only need to hit em once. 2)i got board of not being able to even touch anything without it falling to piece. i actually started to miss just slashing a non-dismembered storm trooper and seeing him fall dead...

i play like u MSpencer13, i like the non-reckless style of game over the cowboy stratergy.

as for Rassick, i agree that you shouldn't have to shoot someone that many times... to solve that just make the guns more powerful :D, its not like you could get more unfair than the lightsaber already is...

I guess to solve the 'one hit wonders' problem we could solve it with where if he shoots you in the head then it should take you down and the same with him

Prime sez:
What an interesting set of moral standards you have!

In a few countries, possibly including Germany, those are, in fact, the legal standards. Media watchdog groups in these countries make sure that no human-beings are killed in computer games. This often leads to the human characters being turned green and labelled "zombies". Dehumanization of the enemy is very important in video games. It also applies to real life. During the second world war, plenty of posters were put up that depicted Germans as anti-sematic, baby killing monsters. By convincing people that this was true, it supposedly made it easier for allied soldiers to kill them, as the moral issues would be better defined.


Anyway, back to the topic, the damage model should apply to the gameplay type. If there is lots of sneaking around, 1-hit-kills make sense. If it's a Duke Nukem style shoot-em-up, 1-hit-kills would make the game pretty simple, so should be avoided.