greetings, all...
i've been spurred by se_vader, who complained that luke wasn't in the best pilot poll ("WHAT ABOUT LUKE!?!?!?!?" :)), to (actually) think as to who would win in a dogfight between luke & wedge, given that they're both in the x-wings, they're both (somehow)hit the peaks of their respective abilities and all other conditions are fair. now, in spite of my inclination to believe wedge is by far the greatest starfighter pilot in the entire sw universe-and probably ours as well :)- my rational mind dictates that i consider both pilots for their merits. now i know both pilots are damn good pilots- luke, for instance, blew up the first death star and was a competent enough tactician to devise (altho he was unable to put into effect) the walker-tripping tactic and wedge helped blow up 2 death stars, mopped the floor with the empire in almost every major space battle and is widely considered a master strategist. the battle between them is gonna be a tough one, both pilots being as skilled as they are.
yet, i do indeed that wedge would win. let's take a look at the various sources which support this. i believe that the battle will be won by two things: TECHNICAL skill (flying ability, dexterity, reflexes etc) and TACTICAL skill (grasp of strategy & tactics). let er run...
THE MOVIES (lifted off my post in the best pilot poll)
case in point #1
luke was bested @ yavin by some TIE fighter and had to rely on the incarnation of piloting talent-that's rite, wedge- to save his tatooine-hailing ass. wedge was never seen to be in a situation with a tie on his tail. why? coz he was too good for them! some farmboy fans might argue that that battle of yavin was centered around luke, and wedge might've had a tie on his tail...it's just that the movie didn't show it. plausible, but unlikely. the fact that wedge was free enough to tackle luke's problem when inferiors like darklighter (no offence, biggs-jus stating a fact) had their hands full just goes to show that wedge was on top of things in the battle- which can be attributed to his superior piloting skills.
case in point #2
also occurs @ yavin. wedge was the ONLY pilot with the evasive skills to manoeuvre thru that restrictive trench outa vader's way. everyone else- garven, dutch, biggs (who was equal to or better than -albeit marginally- luke)- got fragged. luke wouldve been so too had it not been for the timely intervention of han solo (vader's "i have u now" implies that he was within mere moments of flaming his son). luke needed han to get him out of the trench alive. wedge didn't- he had the skills to do so himself.
case in point #3
hoth. wedge was the first guy to trip an ATAT, testament to his skill. some dissidents may claim that the kill should be attributed to wes janson-wedge's gunner- which is true, to a certain extent. wes did make that great shot, after all...but let's not 4get that one needs a pilot skilled enough to actually fly close enuf to the walker for the gunner to shoot it & to fly around it to wrap the ATAT's legs in the tow cable. a significant part-if not the majority- of the kill should be ascribed to wedge. dissidents whine again: "but dack was killed before luke had a chance to trip the ATAT!" true, but even HAD dack survived, they would've still been downed by that ATAT. wedge has the skills necessary to weave thru the walkers' crossfire...luke (and zev and whole lota other pilots) didn't. so there.
case in point #4
wedge chose to fly at endor, but luke opted to go the forest moon instead. why wazzat? he wanted to be with his friends? he wanted to meet vader? EXCUSES! he didn't have the guts to participate in a space battle of the death star's scale again, for he was aware of the high casualty rate that the reds & golds sustained @ yavin. wedge flew @ endor AND he survived.
ok...that's a pretty poor point. but still, wedge distinguished himself well @ endor, blowing up hapless TIEs and manoeuvring skillfully thru the death star's infrastructure to deliver the killing shot to the North Tower.
EU-
too many sources to refer to, so i'll just highlight some
SHADOWS OF THE EMPIRE
Luke made several foul-ups, strategically, which cost the lives of HALF his force during the skirmish with the suprosa. he even ascribed the word "lousy" toward his command of tactics & strategic. as honest as wedge is, u don't see him do the same. y? coz he ISN'T BAD AT TACTICS! quite the contrary....
ROGUE SQUAD COMICS' HANDBOOK
book states that wedge's "piloting of his x-wing is widely considered DEFINITIVE". definitive, meaning THE best and unsurpassed. by nobody. including luke.
TRUCE AT BAKURA
the alliance was considering giving a fleet (which they'd send to BAkura) to wedge-in spite of his injuries- instead of luke...testimony to their faith in his strategic ability. the only reason why luke got command was coz he received a vision from obi-wan kenobi informing him that he "must go". oh well...can't argue with the Force...*sigh*
WRAITH SQUAD NOVELS
wedge was well versed in tactics & strategy, as made apparent by his creation of wraith squadron and by his own words: "few, if any (officers), had (the grasp of strategy and tactics that he had.)" also, in the wraiths' discussion of the best fighter pilot ever to fly, a consensus was reached that wedge HAD at one point of time been the best fighter pilot...even falyyn agreed so, but she refused to think that he still was ("piloting is a game for young people...you're, what, 40?"). he eventually proved her wrong in that lifter race....but the fact remains that wedge WAS indeed the best fighter pilot (at one point of time), which we can assume refers to the galactic civil war period, since that was (a) when wedge was really on a roll and (b) before falyyn's comment....since he was considered the best pilot during the period of time where he flew with luke, we can infer that wedge is truly the better pilot. ha.
REBEL DREAM
wedge had the strategic competence to realize several things which luke couldn't...he was skilled enough to comprehend the depth of the situation and acted accordingly. luke couldn't ("what's wedge doing?"). his strategic brilliance manifested itself in, for instance, his use of the lusankya as a collision device.
i can't think of anything else at the moment...hopefully u've all been persuaded into thinking that wedge would, indeed, emerge victorious should the given dogfight occur.
Wedge all the way.
and he left the DS trench run because Luke ordered him to leave.
and all Luke did was shoot a torp in an exaust port.. how hard can that be?
But Luke would own wedge in a Lightsabe duel :p
3-0! hat trick by the greatest starfighter pilot this galaxy (and the vong's) has ever seen!
But Luke would own wedge in a Lightsabe duel
wedge would probably find a way to alter the structure of a lightsaber to make it explode on impact...and then he'd throw it at luke. boom. :D
Originally posted by benTantilles
wedge would probably find a way to alter the structure of a lightsaber to make it explode on impact...and then he'd throw it at luke. boom. :D
XD HAAHAHHAHAAHHAHA
Skywalker does suck and blow at the same time compared to Wedge.
but to add to your 3rd scenario janson was the one to take out the walker, besides, with luke's raw talent and mastery of the force, then wedge would have no chance against him! but if luke didn't use the force, then i think wedge would win.
though luke did run through beggars canyon, but so did biggs, and look where that got him.:)
at the time of ROTJ luke was concentrating on becoming a jedi, not an ace pilot. plus wedge has way more years of experience than luke does. plus luke had to confront vader, so he couldn't have flown against the 2nd death star or else the story wouldn't have worked out. anyway, these are just my opinions.:)
janson was the one to take out the walker
he was the one who HIT the walker. the pilot should share the kill as well, being the one who wraps the cable round the AT-AT's legs.
anyway, the point is that if wes were back-seating luke, he'd be dead. thanx to luke's poor flying ability, his gunner got killed. he also managed to get shot down entirely, once again due to his inferior piloting skills. wedge, on the other han, succeeded in failing on both accounts- his gunner survived and his speeder's still in one piece...jus goes to show how much better wedge really is.
wedge would have no chance against him
i'm inclined to disagree. at the time of the battle of hoth, luke was relatively skilled in Force usage. the fact that he got his gunner killed AND his speeder shot up, while wedge didn't in spite of his lack of mastery of the Force, attests to antilles' superior skill. don't ya agree? :)
plus wedge has way more years of experience than luke does
i think u got your facts wrong, man. wedge got his first taste of combat @ age 16 when he shot the freighter belonging to his parents' murderers (single-handedly, i might add) and then spent 2 years in obscurity running guns. he signed on for starfighter duty just before yavin, only having a grand total of 2 missions (i recall reading about that somewhere...)before the battle w/ the death star. way more years of experience indeed. :D
Skywalker does suck and blow at the same time compared to Wedge.
couldn't agree more :p
Wedge hands down, Luke's a pansy
Now how hard would it be to send a torpedo down an exhaust port opening of only 2 meters width? Could you do that starwars phreak? not meaning to insult but I sure as hell couldn't do it and I'm an F/A c Super Hornet Pilot for the United States Navy.
Now I do believe that Wedge would win.
Originally posted by Rogue_Leader75
Now how hard would it be to send a torpedo down an exhaust port opening of only 2 meters width? Could you do that starwars phreak? not meaning to insult but I sure as hell couldn't do it and I'm an F/A c Super Hornet Pilot for the United States Navy.
Of course none of us could, cause it's all just a movie :p
oh I'm sorry, was my sarcasm not detected? Hmm... I'll work on that :D
LOL sorry to be snappy on ya phreak but I've had a long long day today
and cramped in that f/a-18 too, i might add...my heart goes out to u, rogue.
and the reason why you probably wouldn't be able to do it while wedge would is coz it's MUCH easier to hit a target in the sw universe than it is in ours. the computers there are more advanced and accurate...furthermore, if u aim an x-wing directly at a 2m-wide hole and fired an unguided trop, u'd stand a good chance of hitting your target.i don't really think u can do the same with a hornet...the missiles do lose a little altitude (albeit very little) when fired, right? and i don't think amraams are built for space use...
of course, another reason why wedge would have a much easier time of hitting a target like that than u is coz he's a much better pilot...
OOH! i just insulted a pilot! now i'll go live in seclusion for the rest of my life...
just kidding, rogue ;)
also-
is an f/a-18C a super hornet? i thought it was just a regular one...the Es & Fs are the super hornets, aren't they?
i must've offended him pretty badly....u know, pilots are supposed to be the most egotistical and image-conscious of all...:D
need help, folks.... there's this best pilot poll on theforce.net, and i'm valiantly defending wedge against the half-baked opinions of some farmboy fans. while wedge was initially in the lead, he's losing out to skywalker now.... so if u all truly believe that wedge
could kick farmboy's ass in space combat, could head on over to
http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=13829375&page=1)
and vote. if the link doesn't work, go to boards.theforce.net , navigate to the "beyond the films: EU" section, the literature
subsection & find the "best pilot" thread. you'll need a theforce.net account, incidentally.... it'll be worth it, don't worry. those boards've got tonnes of opportunities for discussion. and even if u DON'T think wedge would win, just head on down there
and participate.....there're a lot more pilots to choose from. fel, tycho, anakin skywalker etc. would really appreciate your
participation! thanx.
personally i believe that wedge would win also: i mean, wedge is the one who actually came from flight school, and is a full time pilot by occupation. luke's just a farmboy who just discovered that he has an advantage over everyone else, and that his dad is the evil guy leading the empire. how pathetic can this get? if there was a duel between wedge and luke, luke would win beyond a doubt. luke has good flying skills for someone of his age and experience, but stinks in general. not everyone can call onto the force and turn off their targeting computer.
Theres a part in "I, Jedi" (either that or one of the XW noevels???)...where Corran Horn is fighting against wedge/or is it tyco celchu.... It clearly describes Corran having a tough time even with the advantage of the force...
anyway, I still think Luke would beat wedge. In the battle of Yavin, both were n00bs in the squadron, but Luke had the skills to get job done, Wedge just got shot up and had to pull out like an overexcited porn star.......
Now though, in njo times, theyre both old buggers... wedge came out of retirement, and seems more at home on the bridge of a starship nowadays, whereas Luke still jets around in his Red 5 xwing, with R2 in tow.....
hmm..its a toughie, but i gotta go for Luke still, sorry, he's a jedi master dammit, as well as the son of the most renowned pilot of the old republic... wedge's parents ran a petrol station man !
MTFWBYA
If Luke didn't have the Force he'd lose easily. With the force, he'd win.
exactly the point, luke is nothing without the force
Well, unless Wedge happened across some ysamirli (god I can't spell their name) and strapped it to Luke's fighter, Luke is gonna fly circles around Wedge.
nope ^^ not really. Luke quit fighter piloting a loooong time ago and Wedge has soooooo much experience, there's a lot Luke doesn't know like formations, stategies and speacial manueavers. Wedge has gone through VERY strict training in his time with the New Republic.
WEDGE IS DA MAN!!
Gotta disagree with you there, Lynk. The NJO kicks some serious butt. I don't like everything about it, but I enjoy most of it.
I also disagree with those who say Luke is nothing without the Force. He is an excellent pilot even without the Force; the Force can only enhance pre-existing ability, not grant it entirely. He might lose to Wedge, but it'd be a good fight. Just because Corran had trouble doesn't mean Luke would. Especially by the end of the NJO, because he began to take a more active piloting role again. Moreover, by that point they'd both been not actively flying for several years. Wedge hadn't seen combat since shortly after Vision of the Future. He is better at tactics, though. It's his particular skill base.
Also, Luke may have flown a T-16 before, but he'd never actually been in combat. While he might have felt a little more at home in an X-wing than Wedge, those two extra missions can make a big difference. I don't think anyone else is taking into account the psychological factor of it, either. Luke was a fresh-off-the-planet idealistic farmboy; Wedge was already very experienced in the universe as a whole.
Next point: Wedge survived the battle of Yavin because Luke told him to get out of the trench. Everyone seems to have forgotten that except for that command, he'd have died like Biggs (and like Luke would have without Han's help).
Also, why would command put an inferior pilot in command of two better pilots? Especially since both Wedge and Biggs had more combat experience than Luke did? It just doesn't make sense. The worse pilots should be cover.
As far as the 4 meters to move (I think someone said something about that over at theforce.net): it's obvious that he only had four meters to maneuver. That' s not exactly enough when you have one of the best pilots in the galaxy flying a ship vastly superior to yours breathing down your neck.
you can bring up as many points as you want but Wedge has already won :D
Wedge has a cooler name so Ima goin' with him.
Funny. All the SW freaks, myself included thinks lukes da man over at theforce.net.... :p but still, if given the choice... anakin skywalker is the greatest starfighter pilot in the galaxy(ben kenobis words, not mine!!)
the njo, whether one likes it or not, has many descriptions of flight combat formations and techniqes that only jedi could pull off...
as good as other pilots are, eg jag fel for instance, it is impossible to perform those manoeuvres without the force
MFBWYA
*goes back to reading TUF*
Sad but true, Lynk. But only on these forums. And those points mean Luke is an excellent pilot, so...
Well said, Astrotoy7!!!
Long live the Jedi!!! Course, the only reason Anakin is the best is because he's the strongest Jedi in history. Without the Force, Wedge or Luke would kick his sorry butt from here to yesterday.
I was never a Jedi fan, as soon as you think Jedi you think Star Wars Geek
Wedge could whip Anakin and Luke at the same time. Just my opinion.
Originally posted by Lynk Former
I was never a Jedi fan, as soon as you think Jedi you think Star Wars Geek
Aw Cmon Lynk ! (**Cheers to a fellow Aussie !**)
Star Wars without jedi is like a Bruce Lee movie without Kung Fu...... might as well watch Battlestar Galactica, which is cool in its own right, but just *not* SW....
Yes, I am SW geek :p I dont walk around with a robe and a plastic saber in my pocket, but I love EU, and the pc/console games.... and am strictly spoiler free for ep 3.....
With 10,000+ posts , Im sure you must've accumulated those discussing things related to SW ! Geeky :p
MTFBWYA
lol i didn't say i wanted the jedi out i just said i didn't really like the whole jedi thing, the lightsabers are kewl but when i first saw Star Wars the best bits were the space and starfighter battles for me.
Originally posted by Lynk Former
lol i didn't say i wanted the jedi out i just said i didn't really like the whole jedi thing, the lightsabers are kewl but when i first saw Star Wars the best bits were the space and starfighter battles for me.
I hope ep3 has some great space battles.... it would be great to se Republic Cruisers(early star destroyers) in action...
..though the fett/obi wan dequence was cool in AOTC
..in the meantime, the best equivalent you'll get is playing 'Rogue Leader' and 'Rebel Strike' - if you can convince a 10 year old to lend you his gamecube, that is.... nonetheless, great games !!!
MTFBWYA
There should be: It opens with a huge space battle, en media res - in the middle of action, that is. Whether you like Jedi or not, Lynk, you've got to admit that Jedi can use the Force to make themselves better pilots. Even without it, Luke would be close to even with Wedge, with it he'd annihilate him.
Originally posted by Astrotoy7
..in the meantime, the best equivalent you'll get is playing 'Rogue Leader' and 'Rebel Strike' - if you can convince a 10 year old to lend you his gamecube, that is.... nonetheless, great games !!!
I started here in 1999 in the RogueSquadron.Net forums back when I played RS1. I have a GCN (WHICH IS NOT KIDDY DAMMIT! PLAY METROID PRIME AND THEN TRY TO SAY IT'S KIDDY) and I have RS2 and I'll be gettin RS3 next month. I'm also a fan of the old X-Wing series which I still love playing as much as RS.
@ Master_Keralys: Nope Wedge has natural talent and skill and he's had far more training than Skywalker when it comes to piloting. Wedge is more efficient with his piloting and is considered a true pilot. All he rely's on is himself, his X-Wing and his astromech. Nothing more.
Originally posted by Lynk Former
I started here in 1999 in the RogueSquadron.Net forums back when I played RS1. I have a GCN (WHICH IS NOT KIDDY DAMMIT! PLAY METROID PRIME AND THEN TRY TO SAY IT'S KIDDY) and I have RS2 and I'll be gettin RS3 next month. I'm also a fan of the old X-Wing series which I still love playing as much as RS.
I love gettin cubeheads riled up with the kiddy comparisons.... :p however...
Actually Lynk, I have an increasing fondness for the cube, and will be getting my hands on one early next year, and I'll only ever want to play 3 games on it.... Rogue Leader, Rebel Strike and Final Fantasy CC(actually I might have a go at the Sonic games, I am old skool sonic fan). I also have a GBAdvance which id love to play on my tv through the cube, especially to play Final Fantasy Tactics(can you tell I am a Final Fantasy fan yet.....see also, my avatar) I do think the controller is shyte though, and look forward to trying out the ps2 controller converter.....
Yeah I loved the old Xwing series, especially XWA, man what a *great* storyline accompanying a flight/combat sim.... the greatest ever IMHO. I wish Larry Holland would be asked back by LA to have a go at it utislising todays hardware....that would be great.... though the Star trek game, 'Bridge Commander' also by Holland/Totally games was pretty darn cool....
MTFBWYA
All the SW freaks, myself included thinks lukes da man over at theforce.net....
of course...that's why wedge beat luke 58-48 in the poll, didn't he? :D
Gotta disagree with you there, Lynk. The NJO kicks some serious butt. I don't like everything about it, but I enjoy most of it.
same here. i'm only up to DW, but it's an excellent series for the most part.
i'd disagree with the rest of master keraly's points, tho....
Also, Luke may have flown a T-16 before, but he'd never actually been in combat. While he might have felt a little more at home in an X-wing than Wedge, those two extra missions can make a big difference. I don't think anyone else is taking into account the psychological factor of it, either. Luke was a fresh-off-the-planet idealistic farmboy; Wedge was already very experienced in the universe as a whole.
very experienced? i'd be inclined to disagree. wedge was about the same age as luke, and sources have all pointed to him being a happy-go-lucky pilot then.
Next point: Wedge survived the battle of Yavin because Luke told him to get out of the trench. Everyone seems to have forgotten that except for that command, he'd have died like Biggs (and like Luke would have without Han's help).
yeah, he almost definitely would've died had luke not ordered him out.... but keep in mind that wedge was skilled enough to actually have the opportunity to bug out. biggs, dutch, pops & all those other trench-runners were in exactly the same position as wedge, yet they were killed immediately in vader's first pass. they weren't capable enough of even partially evading vader's lasers. wedge, in contrast, must've successfully evaded a fair bit of the dark lord's fire, because his craft wasn't immediately destroyed, just damaged. a lot. which points to him being a superior pilot.
evidence from both the movies and the EU point to him being a superior pilot than anyone else, skywalker included. to actually compare the relative skills of two pilots, you have to base your judgment on the performances of pilots on equal footing. you can't just claim that, hey, luke made a great shot at yavin which wedge could never hope to do on the best day of his life (which is untrue, incidentally), because there's no evidence to back it up. in the case of wedge & luke, the ability to compare them on equal footing rarely occurs, but there nonetheless ARE still a few examples.
at the battle of yavin, before the trench run, both biggs & luke are shown to be occupied with TIEs on their tail. wedge, however, is not shown to be ever tailed. of course, this COULD be attributed to the fact that he wasn't focused on in the assault (which is, to a certain degree, true), but i'm inclined to disagree. after all, while wedge wasn't the focus, biggs & luke WERE. both wedge's wingmen--- the people he'd be relying on to save his ass--- were shown to be busy with things and were not shown as helping wedge. either wedge picked up a tail and shook it off himself OR he didn't pick one up at all-- either of which points to him being a better pilot. also, don't forget that biggs was too busy to clear luke's tail when he picked one up. wedge, however, wasn't, which points to him being on top of things, which should be ascribed to his superior skill.
sure, this is a pretty iffy judgment which depends on a lot of variables, but it's what we have to make do with, and it points to wedge being a better pilot.
a better example would be hoth. luke skywalker & wedge antilles are in a similar position as possible: they're in snowspeeders rushing headfirst to take on a group of AT-ATs. luke gets shot not once but TWICE, the first shot killing his gunner & the second taking out his craft. wedge, however, fares much better-- he doesn't get his gunner killed and keeps his craft in the air long enough to skillfully take down a walker-- longer than luke. at this point, they have the same level of experience ...3 years to be precise. yet, wedge performed better than luke, in spite of the latter's abilities with the Force, which obviously shows that he is much better gifted with flying skills and natural talent.
and that's just the movies.... i'll bring up the EU some other time. or u could save yourself the trouble and check out the best pilot thread at TFN's lit thread yourself. the link is a couple of posts up here... in my previous post.
but here it is anyway... (
http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=13829375&page=1)
wedge, the two best pilots in the galaxy are wedge and Baron Soontir Fel, either could mop luke up blindfolded in an escape pod
Please don't resurrect near year old thread. you already made your point with your new thread about who you think is the superior pilot.
there is nothing wrong with ressurecting an old thread, this thread i felt offered insight into the two pilots, and could potentially add to my poll
Originally posted by rcsquirrel900
there is nothing wrong with ressurecting an old thread
It is when I'm a supermod here.
there is still nothing wrong with it, if you wanted this thread unavailable, you should have closed it permanently, it does provide valuable information to my poll, and your personal vendetta against this thread should not interfere with your duties as a moderator
As the moderator assigned to the forum I say that ressurecting an ancient thread is a bad thing. You as the member should go "okay, sorry, it won't happen again."
We don't go around closing every thread that becomes old, we feel that we don't have to go to such extreme measures. I don't know where my "personal vendetta" to this thread came from but I advise you to put your head back into reality. It'll do you a lot of good.