Wow, those are some straight to the point Q's... heheh Hey Zanzi, I think we've been soft on you, this dude is right to the point! lol... Not that I agree with everything he asks though...
http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif)
------------------
And if I close my mind in fear,
Please pry it open.
(cracks his knuckles)
1: Why was there no multiplayer?
1. Multiplayer was a casualty of 2 things - lack of time and LEC's insistence that the game be simple. As we all know, most multiplayer games nowadays are being developed for hardcore gamers, and that was something LEC did not want for TPM. We all knew that we didn't have enough time to do a multiplayer version that could stand up to the likes of UT or Quake, so it was given the axe. We did make a hacked-together multiplayer version, but unless you made the 'naughty naughty' cheat mandatory, it wasn't as fun, especially because the lightsabers couldn't reflect blaster bolts in our Frankenstein version.
2: Why wasn't a more simpler level designer used?
2. We built a level design tool that let us re-use pieces all over the place, saving memory, and thus eliminating in-level loading. The cube-based system gave us a lot of flexibility for detail, but the downside is that we REALLY had a tough time making realistic outdoor terrain, as you see in Swamp, Gardens and the Tatooine levels.
3: How come it wasn't made editable like JK
3. In truth, one of the reasons why we DID go with the cube-based system was because we intended to make the level editor available, and thus people could swap pieces and levels. That changed when we added so much functionality to the tool that it became INCREDIBLY complex, and then realized that if we were going to release it, it would need a manual, and we were all WAY too busy trying to get the game done to spend time writing a manual. Also, when LEC decided to do a PSX version after all, they wanted to make sure that the PSX version had exactly the same features as the PC version, so it opened up a whole new can of worms in terms of how to swap levels etc.
4: Where was the force? It sure wasn't with Obi-Wan
4. In following LEC's insistence that the game be as simple as possible, we opted to have just the Jedi double-jump and the Force Push (used also for pushing levers and buttons from a distance, like the Jedi telekinesis), in addition to sabre blocking. Those Force powers were the only ones from the script that we knew about; the Force Run seen at the beginning of the movie surprised us all when we saw it, but it was too late to add features at that point.
5: You guys KILLED the sabre dueling. It was extremely dull. How come you didn't make like a seperate block and attack button.
5. We did indeed work with making the Sabre dueling much more complex, with high- and low-blocking, in addition to overhead slashes and attacks and so forth. The system got axed in early 1999 when it became pretty complex. It almost resembled a rock-paper-scissors situation, where Maul would attack, and if you guessed wrong you took damage, you guessed right HE took damage, etc. and it just didn't feel right. At the same time, LEC took a look at it, and apparently thought that it would be too hard for the casual gamer to figure out, making Maul impossible to beat unless you spent a lot of time working on it.
6. How come you didn't make animations for all the models so we could play them? I wanted to go around as Darth Maul and Jar Jar.
6. Time time time. I personally built, textured, and animated every one of those models, and it was amazing that we got it done at all. To make animations for all characters...I'd STILL be working on them to get them done. I have a Mace Windu model that uses the Jedi anims, but that's about it.
7. How come no Gungan Battle? That would have been fun.
7. We toyed around with building a Gungan battle, but we knew at that time that NO ONE would want to play Jar Jar for a level. Yes, we anticipated Jar Jar's near-universal loathing. Also, again, our tool doesn't do terrain well, and in a big flat plain, it would also be tough to judge where you're at in the top-down view. After the game was released, I actually designed out a Gungan level that would have had Captain Tarpals as the lead character, but I never had time to go any further with it.
8. I wish the Mos Espa track actually went all the way around. Makes ya wonder where the podracers actually raced to.WHY?
8. We were told by LEC not to include any kind of 'real' podracer action, because they didn't want to take anything away from SW Racer. It also would have included building a new movement system. If we had included the Tank and STAP movement schemes, then perhaps we could also have done podracer stuff, but we barely made ship date as it was.
9. Coruscant was rather boring. Instead of having a great time exploring, you spent most of it in the boring lower levels.WHY?
9. What exactly would you do up top? Exploring is nice, but in an action/adventure, you gotta have goals, and you gotta have goals that require lots of action. Coruscant isn't exactly a lawless society, we needed to come up with SOMETHING to do, so we decided that there should be an 'underworld' where you can kill and be killed without the knowledge of the police. The problem was, in the movie, virtually NOTHING happens on Coruscant except a lot of talking, so in an action game, it made it rather difficult to come up with something to do. One of our running jokes was that part of the level was going to be the Galactic Senate Bumper Cars seen in the movie. We also toyed with the idea of a Taxi chase through the skylanes using the same movement engine as the STAP, but, you guessed it, it got the axe when time got tight.
10. How come the levels were for the most part small? Mos Espa would have been hilariously fun if it were twice as big with like 10x the amount of people.
10. I might disagree slightly with your characterization of 'small levels', but in terms of keeping us from having to load stuff on-the-fly and not having the game slow down, the levels had to be within certain size restrictions. And having 10x the people would MASSIVELY slow down the CPU as it calculated the AIs of all those people. Some of the AIs were quite complex.
[This message has been edited by Zanzibar (edited May 16, 2001).]
A tear came to my eye when I read this....to think our beloved TPM was cut from a glorious adventure to the pitiful remains that were left when released to the market after LEC practically mutilated it. To think we had a shot at multiplayer...a shot at a level designer.....Well, actually, the double jump was really any good, you barely jump 10ft anyway....there could have been a fun dueling system...no Mace Windu....no Gungan Battle....no podracer....Oh yah, I meant in Coruscant by the action going around the top of the buildings and finding some fun places to battle, those puzzles were so annoying....
Anyways, 1 more question,
How come there wasn't any sky textures? I mean, that part in the gardens where it pans to show all the droids, it was the most hideous blue sky I had ever seen..
------------------
"I'm sorry sir, but the door says unauthorized personel only, seeing that you are authorized, I'm afraid you must leave."
Man...LEC, what the heck have you done?
http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif(well...they) could be reading this because of rumors that LEC is spying on these very boards)
------------------
No!
I am your father.
What can I say? A generalisation is generally true, but, like any generalisation, there are exceptions. So I'm sure if we look hard enough, we'll all find a girl who prefers JPB and a guy who prefers TPM.
Originally posted by Redwing:
Interesting...
I'm a guy and love TPM and hate the relative mindlessness of JPB. However, a good friend of mine (a girl) loves JPB and finds it very addicting. Odd...
It's really too bad that TPM got screwed that way.
It was enjoyable for me though. I did have fun playing it and it was worth the 20$CAN I payed for it.
It is sad that it could have been so much more. LEC really sound like creeps. I mean sure time is of the essence, but who cares? I mean they are still coming out with Episode I games now, so who cares if it takes long? When you think about it, TPM should have been the MAJOR game of Episode I. It should have been the best one. It should have been the game that represents the movie. You guys at Big Ape did an awesome job, and it's a pity that you should look bad for that game not being "as great as expected" when you guys were pressured by LEC.
Comon LEC, if you are such a good company, and if you think I'm wrong, we want to hear you side, post on here! Big Ape has.
Another example of a company being too big to care about their customers.
------------------
And if I close my mind in fear,
Please pry it open.
To put it quite simply, I think LEC has learned its lesson, and is moving away from going with smaller teams and is instead now focusing on getting games RIGHT instead of getting games DONE. I just came from E3, and their stuff is REALLY impressive. The SW Galaxies is amazing, I can't wait to play it, especially since they're going to include space combat (my jaw dropped when I heard that). Also, Jedi Outcast (Jedi Knight II) looks FANTASTIC, and Knights of the Old Republic is also really promising. All of those titles are being developed by LARGE outside developers, instead of the smaller-sized developers they worked with previously. The LEC commitment is there now, where I think they went through a time where the commitment was more to getting a lot of cheaply-made SW games as opposed to a few expensive quality ones.
Ah, to answer the question on the sky texture - just one of those things that we never really expected to see with our camera angle the way it was. When we realized we needed to see across a vista like that, our programmers were beating many many many other features, so we made do.
Originally posted by Zanzibar:
The LEC commitment is there now, where I think they went through a time where the commitment was more to getting a lot of cheaply-made SW games as opposed to a few expensive quality ones.
*cries* Poor poor TPM...if only it had come later
http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/frown.gif)
------------------
At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi.
At last we will have revenge.
Big Ape developed simpsons wrestling too right?
What is your next game Ray?
Nice review:
http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/launchreview.asp?reviewid=50074)
Can't say about next game yet, sorry.
Yeah, gotta love IGN. Not much to say there. They hated the IDEA of the game in terms of it being a 'sellout,' and said so in their very earliest news items about the game. So, lo and behold, instead of actually REVIEWING the game, they took the opportunity to make a statement about the marketing people being in charge of the decision-making process. And, quite simply, you can't argue with that. The suits control the market right now for the most part, and if they want to cash in on the wrestling fad with the Simpsons license, then that's their right to hire a team to put it together.
Not to say that Simpsons Wrestling didn't deserve a bad rap. We wanted high-res, and the limitations of the PSX prevented having both the black-line drawing technique and high-res, and Fox was insistent on the black-line (not to mention insistent that the game be on the PSX and not the Dreamcast), so we went low-res. They also wanted a game that the Simpsons fans could learn and play easily, and also had a 12-month timetable which is quite short, thus our focus had to be very narrow. Is it a fun game to play? Yeah, I think so. But is it deep? No, not in the slightest.
The world of game making seems very ruthless for some reason...
I've been playing TPM some more for some reason... It's kewl. I still love the game and it was worth what I paid. I wish people would come out with patches/add-ons or something. I'm sure SOMEONE can do something with it, no?
Hmmm..ruthless..well, I wouldn't go that far. At least as developers go, there isn't a lot of cutthroat action. We trade a lot of tools and procedures and code back and forth between developers, each of us trying to get the most juice out of the hardware, and sharing our tricks. We're good friends with a lot of the local developers. The publishers are a different story; they're VERY cutthroat. Just look at the war of words between Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo for next-gen consoles and you'll see how it is.
As for patches/mods, the easiest answer to why is because the world-building/AI tool is proprietary code, owned jointly by LEC and Big Ape, and because of the joint ownership, neither can make a move without the other, and neither company had the time or inclination to support the tool should a modified version be released to the public.
One of these days I'll release that Mace Windu .baf file just for laughs, but be forewarned, it's not that spectacular.
Kill the publishers! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA...oops was that out loud? :p
Bah! Just reading through some of the past posts about this, and I have to agree that all the features that had to be axed sound amazing. Although, with it being the official game of them movie, I can see why it had to be rushed. Makes you want to pluck the hairs out of George's beard one by one... ;)
*starts singing*
"You can't always get what you want... No you can't always get what you waaant... But if you try sometimes you might find... YOU GET WHHHHHHAAATTTTTT YOU NNNNNNNEEEEEEEEDDDDDDD!!! YEAH YEAH you get what you neeeeeeeeeeeeed..."
*windows break, ear drums burst, I am banished from every kareoke machine in the world*
*waves to the crowd*
Thank you Thank you! your all great... (I'm sure this is gonna get me 5 stars in my rating!)
:o Do you all want to hear some 'REAL' singing???
[Start of the TPM revolution]
hehe!!
Oh, I had a question for zanzibar.
I used a program called ScummRevisited and Opened up the Big.lab file and found a bunch of little files called .baf files????
What are they?
---------------------------
Fear attracts the fearful
-DarthMaul
---------------------------
The .baf files are the model files. They are basically compiled versions of the original .3do and .key files from the original Jedi Knight file format, in addition to the .mat texture files, all bundled into one. They also contain several flags we use for damage tags etc.
We used the existing JK file formats because it saved us quite a bit of time. There was a little tweaking involved, but all in all, the JK stuff worked just fine. We just spent more time getting the lighting correct for TPM.
Now, if you REALLY want to start taking chances, if you copy a .baf to one of the player characters (like: sithjedi.baf renamed to obiwan.baf) and then move the copy into your TPM root directory, then it will boot up the game with that model as the playable character. WARNING: in most cases, all you can do is walk around. If you attack, or shoot, or do anything, or even GET shot, the game will probably crash, because most of the animations will be invalid. Just something for the TRULY hardcore-TPM fanatics.
Here are the names of the playable characters:
obiwan.baf
quigon.baf
queen.baf
panaka.baf
Oh, and be sure to make backup copies of everything. Just delete/move the modified .baf file out of the TPM root directory to restore the original characters.
Yes, this is how I would also instruct you how to play the Mace Windu .baf file should I get permission to distribute it.
Would your Mace Windu work normally?
And which file would control character abilities(Like the reason Panaka and Padme can't have sabers and only Panaka can have the R-65)?
I opened up the big.lab with conman(Jk editors know eactly what i'm talking about)
And found alot of things.
A text file named damage
4 green
3 default
5 double
0 circlebeam
3 spark
10 grenade
3 popgun
3 sixshooter
11 missile
10 tank gun
11 thermal detonator (on impact)
17 force push
3 gungaball
3 STAP
2 droid zapper
0 electro
6 stake
3 tusken
17 evil force push
4 supa-twisty green ribbon of death
2 small panaka shot
2 jawa blaster
5 tripod gun
11 player missile
6 darth maul force electro
And what is all this?
Try changing some of the numbers to higher values and then put it into your TPM folder. You'll find out soon enough. :) At least,I think you will. :D
Greetings Commander_598. :D *bows* Welcome back to JK.net :).
Thank you.
I love the new forums.
...I'm pretty sure you can't alter the 'attributes' of the different characters. Most of the character control stuff is hard-coded, and would be unaffected by changes to files. Even if you could, some characters don't have particular animations, like Panaka has no lightsaber built into his model, therefore there was no reason to create 'block' animations for reflecting back shots. It would probably crash horribly if you tried. Panaka also has no 'swim' anims because his level, Coruscant, had no water in it.
The stuff in that list, I believe, is the damage attributes done when a particular shot hits. There's a section built into the main program code that looks at that file to deliver a 'message' to the damage table, so a force push message tells the code to give the affected character a backwards velocity etc.
Yes, the Mace Windu works exactly like the Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon models, except that his lightsaber halo is white - the halo color hue is controlled by the main program code, which was previously locked down before I made Mace. Don't get too excited about him, he really doesn't look that great.
Would you consider giving us a screenshot of Mace? :)
(sigh) Yes, I have a screenshot of Mace, but for some reason, it's not coming up. Try this link, but be forewarned, it may not work. I'll try again later tomorrow, but right now, I'm too tired.
http://www.geocities.com/zanzibar106/mace.jpg)
If it DOES work for anyone, somebody post and say so.
http://www.geocities.com/zanzibar106/ZANZIBAR.html)
A quick-and-dirty effort to display the picture via a bogus homepage. Ah well.
[ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: Zanzibar ]
LOL! That page is pretty funny just because it looks so phony! :D
Yes, copy and paste the link and the Mace Windu pic works. BTW Panaka CAN swim, but it looks like he's walking in the water. Odd.
"supa-twisty green ribbon of death"?? What, exactly, was THAT?
Why is the voice acting so bad? Was there some sort of legal issue preventing you from just recording dialogue from the movie?
But they never said lots of the things in the game in the movie and I thought the voice acting was pretty good. :(
Yeah, we had to do the dialogue separately because we had so much more of it than in the movie. Come to think of it, I doubt there's one line that's exactly the same in the movie as in the game. Also, the big-name stars would cost a LOT of money, so for most characters, we got sound-alikes. Jar-Jar, Watto, and Anakin all reprised their voices from the movie, however.
The 'Supa-Twisty Green Ribbon of Death' is Panaka's R-65 blaster shot. That's our programmer's pet name for it.
Is it just me or does Mace look alot like a red x?
Yeah... he does.
Looks like your 2 Sith apprentices have better eyes eh SuperBuen ;).
lol!
Yeah I realized it didn't post after and was too lazy to fix it...
You need to go to Zanzi page to view it... It's pretty kewl!
Ok,
I was just wondering, why does LEC care so much about posting stuff? I mean, they aren't gonna make really any money off of it because everyone said it sucked (it was a fun arcade game that sucked because it could have been so much more to LEC slaughtered and foced Big Ape to kill this game), so why would they actually care if someone distributed a mod or something? Also, Zanzibar, how come in Coruscant or in Naboo theed generator the "fade" effects never seem to work and I can see everywhere, and how hard would it be for you to get them to let you distribute your stuff? Also, if they would let you, could you like release a Darth Maul and other mods?
Dan :eek:
Hi Zanzibar!! It's me LordMaul I just changed my screen name to JediMaster Qui-Gon.
I had one other question for you,
I've been working on a Jedi Knight Level and I wanted to know if just for fun there's a way to get some of the character wireframes and convert them to JK?? I know the Mats in TPM are 16-bit and JK is 256 color, but I could convert those too.
A few more questions :D
*What are the files in the LEVEL folder??
*Did the original story line of the Zanzibar project varry from what it is now?? I heard something like, Zanzibar project was originaly going to be about a Jedi who crashed on a forsaken planet???#%#
*One last one, Is there a way to convert any of the matirial in TPM to JK?
Sorry to bug ya with all mu quistions :D
(how do I get a good rating?)
------------------------------------------
Some people are followers and some are
followers of followers :eek:
------------------------------------------
I think LucasFILM (not Lucasarts) is being a bit more tight with the licensed properties of Episodes 1-3. I don't have a specific idea, but just the kind of stuff that we heard from the Ranch was "don't stray too far from the storyline of the movie," and the WAY they said it was kind of weird. We got word fairly early on that the Ranch frowned on making TPM editable, and that became one of the reasons why we could rationalize not spending time on a manual for the tool. The one instance that told me that the Ranch was really paying attention to the game was when we got word that the Gamorrean Guards on Tatooine needed to come out of the game. No specific explanation, just "Lose the Gamorrean Guards. Make them something else." Thus I switched them to the grey-skinned guards you see now (designed by a Lucasarts artist named Martin Yee, BTW, who did a spectacular job for all the various tasks we asked him to do).
This kind of ties in with why LEC is so reticent to allow new skins to be released, like Mace and Maul. For the most part, though, I think they just don't want to deal with it. I could indeed release the Mace model I have, but if I really wanted to do a Maul model, it would take quite a bit of time to animate him, which I simply don't have right now.
(Hey AriBen, not sure what fade problem you're talking about. Can you be more specific?)
LordMaul/JM Qui - I can't release the models, but yes, I can create .3do and .key files, and also .mat files. We are basically using the same JK modeling system. Also, each model only uses 256 colors, but there's a specific palette assigned to each model (saves a LOTTA texture space), and the game itself is rendered in 16-bit.
The .b3d files are the compiled maps. They include all the AI information, enemy placements, textures, etc. etc.
Yes, Big Ape was originally supposed to do an Eps 4-6 game starting in early 1997, but then somebody did the math and realized that there would be no character-based game released for Ep1 at the same time as the movie (Racer was vehicle-based), so after much reconsideration, our focus was changed to follow Ep1. Our original storyline, as you mentioned, would follow a teenager who takes over for an old Jedi Knight that is mortally wounded when his starship crashes near the boy's home. The Jedi is carrying something of great power that EVERYBODY wants, but can't continue his quest. His dying words to the boy are to continue, this item must not fall into the hands of the Dark Side. So everyone's involved, the Hutts, the Empire, mercenaries, bounty hunters, and even the Rebellion who want to help. Would have been a lotta fun to make ;)
As I mentioned above, yes I can make materials, but all the TPM files I have are basically property of LEC, so I can't release them. :(
Ok,
In all the guide, and in the installation setup, on Coruscant it shows an orange fade effect so that you can't see beyond a few buildings past you, and in the Theed generator it shows a purple fade effect, so you can't see all the way around and the bottom.
Got it. We set up a 'fog effect' to lessen the render distance from the camera. The more polys you have, the slower the game is, yadda yadda, so by fading in fog at distance, it lets us cut down the number of polys onscreen at any given time for the vistas etc.
We'd have loved to have a huge draw distance for the game, but we kept hearing from the programmers how short we'd need to keep it to keep the game running at a decent framerate.
Hey Zanzibar, thanks for doing all this. I've had a great time reading t all.
Anyway, i have a question about the force push. Most of the time it would simply knock them over but occasionally it would kill them. Was this intentional? Also, why didn't you have it kill them like in the movie?
Early on, the impression we got from the script was that the force push itself doesn't do any damage, it just gives you velocity - if, at that point, you ran into a wall, the IMPACT would kill you, not the push itself, and that's the model that the TPM Force Push was built upon. For the most part, the movie lived up to that, except once in the Trade Federation ship, where Obi-Wan force pushes two or three droids down and they STAY down. In our game, if you pushed them down and they didn't hit a wall, they survived and got back up. Personally, that made more sense to me. I don't know why those droids in the Trade Federation ship died. If you remember, when the Queen is rescued by the Jedis the first time, the push is used, but they hit the wall - THAT is what killed them.
Go go go! Keep 'em coming! We're almost at 100 ;)
Seriously, though, I'm having a blast. We made a lot of assumptions, a lot of mistakes, and a lot of sky-high dreams shot down, but all in all it turned out to be a pretty decent SW game, and it's fun to talk with you about it.
Zanzibar... It think I speak for everyone when I say it was awesome having you here to answer all the Q's and concerns we have!
I can't really think of anything else I want to ask.
We already discussed the Force powers. As well as better duelling. We begged for patches/mods. We want a level editor.
Do you think there is anyway that LucasArts/films will agree to release those? Maybe if we e-mail 'em? (please not another petition).
Zanzi: what are you working on now?