Okay, I guess there was a new koan in that muddle after all: "Where does a circle end?"

Discussion tomorrow. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

When your pencil runs out of lead.

Good point SHOOTIST.

I'm gonna miss the discussion, it sounds like a good one too. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

------------------
"Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

We will try to up date you the best we can when you get back.

Some would say that a circle doesn't have an end...but I say that's circular reasoning which gets us nowhere. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Let's look at the whole circle, not just the path in space it describes. In the course of its existance, is there any time when it does have an end?

Aspirin suggested with this koan. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

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"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

Life is like a circle. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

I thought that life was like a dream. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif) Just kidding. You got it, buddy...if you substitute life for existance. Life is linear in nature, but existance is circular. We'll see what I mean by that shortly.

Okay, here's my interpretation of the circle koan. When we look at a circle, we're seeing a design drawn on a sheet of paper (at least, that's what I've been visualizing here.) Obviously, there is no end in the design; it is a whole, closed structure without any difference between one point on it and the next. A line has an end; a circle does not.

My trick is to think of the circle as it exists throughout its lifetime. I then come up with two possible answers.

The first answer: the circle is drawn onto the paper, so it will end when the paper ends. Essentially, the circle's existance is dependant on the paper...so when that paper is destroyed, so too is the circle. This means that the circle has a linear nature after all--it was created when I drew it, it existed awhile as an endless design, then it ended when the paper was finally burned, shredded or whatever fate it eventually suffered. One could argue that graphite residue on what remains of the paper still exists, so the circle doesn't truly end, but I would simply say that it is no longer a circle. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

The second answer: (my favorite) the circle did indeed have an end as I was drawing it. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) When I put the pencil to the paper and began drawing, that point could be considered the 'end' of the line before the circle closed. The 'end' in this case is also the beginning, and exists not in space but in time...precisely at the time of the circle's creation. End becomes beginning, and the circle can be seen to have a cicular nature.

This is a model of the nature of existance. Yes, I am using circular logic, but that's kind of the point. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

Greetings. This post is the 108th...and 108 is a holy number in Hindu ideology. I've heard several explanations, but they went over my head. Something to do with the relationship between the human heartbeat and cosmological rhythms. Well, whatever it means, it should bring us good fortune.

Today's koan: "Does fire have a living nature?"

Or, put another way, can one prove in entirely objective terms that fire is not alive? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

And a haiku: 'I light the flares on my roof--perhaps tonight the saucers will land.' http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

If I get a running start at that sucker, can I distract it with my sword?

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"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

Hey! I like this topic don't stop posting here!

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"Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

<marquee>Fire is a zen element, therefore it can't be alive (unless water, stone, air etc are too)</marquee>

------------------
Name: HiddenTalon
Email: HiddenTalon@mail.com
Occupation: Crashing virtual X-Wings
Webpage: www.scabmaps.cjb.net) (http://www.scabmaps.cjb.net)

[This message has been edited by HiddenTalon (edited June 19, 2000).]

Ahhh. (Inscrutable oriental-type aaah.) There is another samurai at the table...now we're getting somewhere! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

By going back to the elemental view, you have successfully gotten to the root of the matter. Now...by elements, I'm not talking about the periodic table of elements, but rather the older description of vibrational matter states I talked about on page one of this thread. Fire is what we call a plasma, and it is just another form that matter can take if raised to the proper temperature. Once we've determined that it is this vibrational state which is responsible for the behavior it exhibits (consuming oxygen, growing, consuming fuel, etc.), we can see that this is not life but a simple chemical reaction.

Although life is itself a chemical process! When we consider this, we immediately see what it is about our chemical process that distinguishes it from the simpler ones of nature: the accompanying consciousness. Once we've figured that out, though, it is interesting to note that the objective reasoning process has taken on a note of subjectivity--one must make a subjective decision as to whether the living being is experiencing consciousness instead of merely generating responses from a chemically-driven thought process. My point: consciousness cannot be determined from objective (or left-brained) reasoning alone--one must use the other side of the brain to make that call. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

More on the five elements. When reading Musashi's Book of Five Rings, I noticed that he'd arranged his work in five 'scrolls,' being earth, water, fire, air and nothingess. Curiously enough, in the Kabbalist tradition--from the other side of the world altogether--the five elements are related to the five 'sephirot' on the central pillar on the Tree of Life. Those five sephirot are in the same order, and lead the meditator from the lowest level, that of the phenomenal reality (earth) up to the Great Mystery itself* (nothingness.) Essentially, this codgey old samurai was laying a path for spiritual realization into his book...and his means are identical to those in Jewish mystical practice that he almost certainly knew nothing about!

Kinda makes ya wonder. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Chillin, I'm glad you're back! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif) Yes, the discussion was kind of dying away. I had a feeling it would spark up when you got back, though. How was Florida? Did the house make it up okay?

No koans or haiku for tonight. I'm off tomorrow, so I'll post some then...

<font size=1>*This very same sequence, earth to nothingness, was the path followed in my thread 'A very nice story that has nothing to do with Star Wars.' It should be a few days down the forum topics list, if anyone's curious.</font>



------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

You meen I didn't help keep ths up while he was gone. I was the one who gave all the dinky little explanations. You gotta give me credit for that!

Imladil, you say something must be conscious for it to be alive? Well a plant is alive but not conscious, explain that!

------------------
"Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

Ii have something to say about that! Imladil dosn't know every thing. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Okay smart guy...what is consciousness? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/tongue.gif)

A plant exhibits signs of consciousness on a very limited level...but it is certainly enough to distinguish the nature of its existance from that of simple chemical reactions. The plant reacts to changes in its environment, and fire does not; when you monitor a plant with the necessary equipment, one finds that the plant exhibits subtle changes in its physiology in direct response to environmental factors. Also, a plant produces an electromagnetic field just like other, more clearly conscious life forms.

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

Is a plant ever going to say hi? No, of course not. But it will eat a bug (if it's a carnivorous plant,) and it will turn to follow the sun. And if you yell at it, it's 'nervous system' will freak out. This is consciousness of a very primitive variety...it isn't aware of itself, and imagination is clearly out of the question. But it does perceive the universe, which means it has a point of view...which means that it is conscious.

Think outside the box, man! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Today's koan: "Does a computer die when you turn it off?"

Now we'll just drag this discussion into the deeper water, and compare artificial intelligence to consciousness. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

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"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

No. If a computer is truly alive, then its hard drive is its memory. When you die, you lose your memories. When you boot up a computer, it still has its hard drive data (at least in should http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

------------------
Name: HiddenTalon
Email: HiddenTalon@mail.com
Occupation: Crashing virtual X-Wings
Webpage: www.scabmaps.cjb.net) (http://www.scabmaps.cjb.net)
=) (http://www.fungrams.com/haha.html)
Don't click on Mr. Smiley!

Good point HiddenTalon, but what about AFTER we die? eh? Some believe that our Consciousness(aka:memories) our transfered to a spiritual form (ghost) and we go either to Hell, bad, or Heaven, good. so therefore, theoretically, we could retain all memories after death.

In theory of course.

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Even if you dodge this, Kakarotto,
THIS PLANET'S GOING UP IN SMOKE!!
Vegeta, DragonBall Z

Ahh, but if a computer dies when it is turned off, then it is reincarnated when it is turned on. I've never heard anyone say that you retain memories after reincarnation...

------------------
Name: HiddenTalon
Email: HiddenTalon@mail.com
Occupation: Crashing virtual X-Wings
Webpage: www.scabmaps.cjb.net) (http://www.scabmaps.cjb.net)
=) (http://www.fungrams.com/haha.html)
Don't click on Mr. Smiley!

I disagree Cracken, I've always believed that when you die you lose all your memories, even in the spiritual sense. So all the people you new that died all your loved ones you will not recognize. Also in heaven you'll be too transfixed on God's magnificence that you wouldn't even notice anyone. However I don't like that because because you won't get to see the people you knew ever again so now I agree with you Craken about the memories thing. You're very persuasive. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

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"Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

Well, an open mind is a good thing...but that was an awful quick turnaround! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif) I do agree with Cracken on this, for a couple of reasons.

Reason one: the near-death experience. You can argue all you want that the NDE is a pre-death oxygen deprivation fantasy, but I'm firmly of the belief that it is a genuine experience. The mystic experience has many features in common with the NDE (and believe me, you aren't suffocating when you're meditating!) which lead me to believe so. Once you've taken this experience as genuine, though, you can see that it does indicate the existance of memory after death. Otherwise, how would we recognize the loved ones who come to greet us, or how could we remember the experience after we've returned?

Reason two: reincarnative memories. I'm one of those who do have memories of past lives (although they're very faint memories), so it's quite easy for me to believe in reincarnation. There are case histories of people who recall their past incarnations to such detail that they can give names, dates and locations. While this body of evidence is highly subjective, the sheer weight of it is highly compelling. It's kind of like UFOs--not all of those people were hallucinating! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

So why don't we have 'hard drive' memories of past lives, just waiting to come online when we 're-start' the computer? Because in the case of human beings, the computer isn't just turned off...it is physically destroyed altogether. The only memories which survive are what data was transmitted out through the modem before it died ( http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif), which are then downloaded into the next computer.

So where are these memories? Well, what do you think it is the subconscious mind is 'hiding' from us in the first place? We can, with (unfortunately) limited reliability, retrieve some of these memories to our conscious mind...but the suggestive nature of the subconscious mind makes a lot of 'random noise' intrude into the recollective process. This is how we wind up with kooks thinking they were all famous people in past lives, or knew the same people they know now back then. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

Of course, if we take reincarnation as given, then somebody had to be Napoleon...Vive la France!

I still haven't addressed the computer koan proper. I believe I'll let the debate rage another day before I do so. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

------------------
"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

But a computer dosn't have a spirit so it can't go to Heaven or Hell, it also was created by man and it isn't alive to begin with. I beleive that man can't create life, they might be able to revive it but can't create it (with the exception of mutation. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) So there is no way the computer dies when it is shut off. It was a interesting question but sadly my answer is that it dosn't die when it is shut off.

I would say the computer doesn't die, when you turn it off it's more like sleeping. When we go to sleep we are just on a mental shutdown. When we sleep our bodys stop doing anything unnesasary to our survival. The body also takes this time to heal any injuries. The nightmares and dreams we have is just our brain doing a virus check on our memories. And the dreams and nightmares come from our own hopes and fears. And since the computer is just sleeping that is why it retains it's memories, it even checks it's memory.

------------------
"Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

Another good point! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Yeeesh! Another "God" thread? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Master, actually man is coming pretty close to being able to create another human being. They can clone them, make out of other peoples organs, whatever. I hope they never actually clone a human. I think that is one of my greatest fears, having clones running around everywhere. What I'm seeing is all the clones have some genetic malfunction, and the clones clone some super warrior guys and make an army of them and rebel and destroy us all. But thats just the pizza and too many movies talking. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

------------------
"Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

Well, actually I've been trying to stay away from religion in this thread, but it does seem that we can't thoroughly discuss these matters without mentioning God. It's okay...as long as we bring two things to the table: an agreement to disagree, and a sense of humor. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

The computer koan--I have decided not to voice my own take on this koan. There were times when Siddartha Gautama (an ancient mystic teacher otherwise known as the Buddha) would refuse to answer a question because any answer he might give would interfere with the student's own finding of the truth. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

Have some haiku instead:

'Such noisy children. It is good we have monsters in the basement.'

'Get out, mister pilot--I will fly this plane into the ocean!'

'Silent weasels at dawn, hunting for gnomes to fall upon and eat.'

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/rolleyes.gif)

I spit in hatered from the person who dares crash that plane in the ocean.:P

...It's a lower-case p, like this: http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/tongue.gif)

I knew that, I guess I just never told the dumbos who didn't know. j/k

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"Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

Clone wars, like in Star Wars. wierd, we are on the brink of that, as a race. *shudder* My fav sci-fi the idea of a evil idea! SAY IT AIN'T SO!?!!!!!!!!!

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Even if you dodge this, Kakarotto,
THIS PLANET'S GOING UP IN SMOKE!!
Vegeta, DragonBall Z

It ain't so. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Okay, new koan. This time I'll pick a real zen koan, the classic "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" I've never worked on this one myself, so it'll be a fresh one.

Remember: run straight at the enemy, yelling 'BANZAI!' at the top of your lungs, and cut his head off before the startled look has left his face. It's the only approach that works. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

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"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

Yeah, then the startled look is locked on his face forever!

The logical anwser for your koan Imladil would be silence, but I guess we never really use logic here sooo...

You would hear the sound of the air moving from the waving action made by your hand. Or you could be clapping against a wall or your leg.
---------------------------------------------
Also I wanted to bring this up for a while.
I don't know what it is but sometimes I have dreams, and then the dreams come true. Nothing major just kindof normal everyday happenings. The problem is I don't know the dream is something thats going to happen until the thing in the dream comes true. And I can never remember any details just that I remember the same thing happening in a dream. If it is that I'm psycic it would be useless cause like I said before I don't know I'm seeing something thats going to happen until something happens. Or it could be that I actually never had a dream, and that my imagination makes me think I saw this same thing happen to a dream. You all following me ? Well I'm done I just wanted to put that up for you guys to bop around.

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"The pen is mightier than the sword. Thats the biggestload of s**t!"

One hand can't clap.

The End

------------------
"What is thy bidding thy Master"- Darth Vader.
Go into the pantry and steal a cookie!"- me.

Actually I know someone who is double jointed and can clap with one hand... it sounds like just anyone claping.

------------------
Name: HiddenTalon
Email: HiddenTalon@mail.com
Occupation: Crashing virtual X-Wings
Webpage: www.scabmaps.cjb.net) (http://www.scabmaps.cjb.net)
=) (http://www.fungrams.com/haha.html)
Don't click on Mr. Smiley!

The sound of one hand clapping...would be silence. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif) But that's not really the point that I get from the koan. To me, what's important is the realization that it takes two hands clapping together to produce the noise; one hand can only wave, but two strike against one another and clap. It is as if each hand resolves the other, works against its opposite to produce the desired effect. Likewise, in real life, nothing does anything by itself...every action affects surrounding factors, and produces results by interacting with something else. If I have a thought, that thought is connected to the life experiences that caused me to have it; if I jump into the air, I do so by pushing away from the ground. Even the sheer act of existance is countered by the possibility of nonexistance...without nonexistance, there could be no 'being.' Ah, but I babble.

This is a tough cookie indeed. It illustrates a fundamental principle in the nature of our existance, but it doesn't quite come down to words. This is where most mystics wind up sounding crazy... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

I am intrigued by your dream question, Chillin. I've had them, too, and believe it or not, I do have an explanation for you. Unfortunately, it draws on a lot of really bizarre mystic hypnobabble that I'll have to think over most carefully before putting to words here. I'll have to work on it, I'm afraid, with the post tomorrow. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Meanwhile, has anyone else had prophetic dreams?

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"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

Yep, of Armagedon. <font size=1>j/k

I do.

It's wierd, I dream it, forget it, then, in real life (if there is such a thing http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) it happens, triggers something in my brain, and BOOM! deja vu. and I KNOW I drempt it! it's wierd, and then sometimes, i do remember teh dream, and BOOM! it happens! cna you explain Imladil?

I mean, CLEARLY!!? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) (j/k)

------------------
Even if you dodge this, Kakarotto,
THIS PLANET'S GOING UP IN SMOKE!!
Vegeta, DragonBall Z

I'll try, but as I said before...this is gonna get weird. This is mainly due to my drawing on different sciences, religions and philosophies to put together a clear explanation. There simply isn't one entire worldview that has enough of the facts to explain this. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

First off, I think you might be talking about the deja vu sensation proper...which has been explained by western science. It seems that when you see something, another part of the brain receives and processes that information before your neocortex (or 'thinking self') does...so it triggers a strong feeling of recognition. My question would be, did you remember these dreams after having them but before witnessing the event? If not, you may be experiencing deja vu proper.

But a dream that flat comes true is another matter altogether.

What is a dream? Well, when we're dreaming, we are essentially experiencing another state of consciousness...one in which the subconscious mind has come to the forefront and is using the visualization abilities that the sleeping consciousness is not. These visual abilities are what are refered to in the east as 'the third eye,' and are simply that imaginary screen on which we see things in our minds. Essentially, when we're awake, we're constantly using this third eye...we each have a stream of accompanying images, symbols, etc. that run through our minds as we're living our daily lives. When we turn off the thoughts, such as when we're asleep or in deep meditation, the subconscious comes forward to fill the void, to fill in the blank screen. This is the only chance our subconscious mind has to communicate with us, and usually that is just what it does; it projects images and stories that reflect the inner workings of how you think and feel. Occasionally, however, the subconscious mind uses the third eye to penetrate the veil of mystery, and that's when things get weird.

Whoa, there! Weird indeed. Veil of mystery? What the heck are you babbling about now, Imladil? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Here it is as plain as I can make it: there is an energy center floating over the top of everyone's heads. This energy center is depicted in many paintings as the halo...when depicted on a living person, it suggests sanctity. This is because that energy center is the lens through which God projects our soul into our bodies, and the holy have reopened that door, so to speak, in their own quest to find Him. Now...the halo is present in everybody, just veiled from our perception by the subconscious mind. If one meditates and lives correctly, the subconscious can be made 'clear,' and one can then perceive the great veil directly...or, the subconscious mind can relay that information to you. Either accidentally or because it has something imoportant to tell you, the dreaming subconscious can turn upwards and look into the halo...and see through that lens into what I like to call the Great Mystery.

Through the halo, one can see everything and nothing. Past and future both coexist there, and time itself is an immutable constance. For the religious, there is paradise and God; for the scientific there is understanding. I'm sorry if I've stopped making sense at this point, but no other mystic has ever been able to adequately describe the Great Mystery. What's important for my explanation is that past and future thing; this is where our vision of the future comes from.

To recap. When we are dreaming, the subconscious mind takes over the third eye. When that third eye looks up into the halo, it can catch glimpses of the future.

Okay. Maybe that wasn't so weird after all... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

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"I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth."

--Thrustweasel of Earth

So, what's today's Zen?

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"What is thy bidding thy Master"- Darth Vader.
Go into the pantry and steal a cookie!"- me.

I remember the dreams at least right when I wake up, then as the day progresses all thats happening makes me completely forget the dream.

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"The pen is mightier than the sword. Thats the biggestload of s**t!"

Chillin, you're describing a normal dream, not deja vu. The experience is authentic.

New koan? Let's see. "Why did the eskimo starve in the jungle?"

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Because the elephant ate all his frozen peanuts! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Wrong he got to hot!!!!!!

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I rule this ocean with an iron fist,an iron tail, and for that matter an iron everything-Metalseadramon

Because he couldn't ice fish. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Well, The Master seems to be onto something. Care to take it further, and find 'the moral to the story,' so to speak?

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif?)

Well he didn't know how to scavenge for food in a differn't area, so he had no knid of food source. Ice fishing (as far as I know) is one of their main food sources up north (in the cold region.) Plus there are animals in the jungle that they don't know how to avoid- but back to the moral. Don't make a major move to an area that you have never been before. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) Or something like that.

Master they also spear up seals and the like.

I think the eskimo starved because there was no food around...at least, none that he recognized. He didn't see a polar bear, or a seal, or a patch of iced-over water to fish on. There were no walruses or even whales! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

To me, this koan is an exploration of the nature of truth. The eskimo wasn't stupid for not recognizing what other food was around him...it's just that he was relying on what information was already in his brain to plan for the future. This is how our minds are wired, and it works for us just fine...until we get to areas where we have no previous knowledge. The answers could be right there at hand, but if we're constantly checking the old database for comparisons, we might miss it altogether. This is what I mean by 'thinking outside the box.'

Where's Q? We could really use an omnipotent being's input right about now... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Truth. This is a very tricky concept, and I've identified it as one we should explore here. Most people spend their entire lives searching for 'The Truth,' thinking that when they have arrived at it...they will have the right answers, but those who have different answers are wrong. Since this is a basic major flaw in the reasoning of most people, and one which prevents the integration of greater concepts, we should reflect on comparing two things: the complexity of the human brain, and the complexity of the living universe. Obviously, the one doesn't have enough complexity to fully reflect the other.

Another way of looking at truth: truth is essentially a set of ideas that can be contained within our brain in chemical form. When compared against the world around us, we see that these ideas either 'fit' or don't. When they do not fit, we then review our 'model of truth' so that they can. This is human learning...but it does have one shortcoming--it can only know that with which it has come into contact.

Now, we can think of a brain as a computer, which understands only MS-DOS when it is built, but which can have software installed that allows it to interact with the world around it. This software can be compared to the religions, sciences and philosophies we integrate over the course of our lifetime. Once we've installed it, we can go online and do our thing with ease.

To take the analogy further, and perhaps demonstrate why we have so many different worldviews among our species, we can think of this software as, say, Windows 95. We can use Windows 95 to hook up on the web and get around most computer applications...but when compared to Macintosh or Linux, it seems completely different. Windows 95 programs won't work on Macs, and vice-versa. Both computers, from their own point of view, are 'right,' while the other spouts gibberish and is clearly 'wrong.'

Yet both operating systems are about running computers. And both can get you on the internet. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

Today's daily zen is an oldie but a goodie, and it concerns the nature of truth. The most correct answer wins a dream date with Hillary Rodham Clinton. (...!)

"If a tree falls in a forest and nobody hears it, does it make a sound?"

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

I am very, very confused now, yes...

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I've never done a stupid thing in my entire life, with the exception of all that stuff I did