In Zen Buddhist tradition, there is a kind of riddle known as a koan. Unlike our western riddles, which have a humorous climax or a point of some kind, the zen koan is an open-ended riddle with no right or wrong answer. The riddle should be paradoxical in nature, ideally pointing in some way to the inifinite. The zen student would meditate long on a koan, and by doing so he would (hopefully) discover his true nature and become enlightened. A good zen koan can keep one wondering for days, until you finally come up with your own answer.

Creating a zen koan can be interesting and fun! I invite everyone to contribute (they don't have to be strict, by the letter zen koans). If they have to do with Star Wars, great...but since the Jedi are a lot like the Samurai, this is fairly close to being on topic anyway. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

I'll start.

"What is the color of nothing?"

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif?)

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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

What color is imagination? Also see signature.

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Boldly Going Nowhere

...Where does a Nauga Hide?


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Boldly Going Nowhere

the color of nothing is nothing.

Fascinating. I think that a nauga hides in nothing. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif) Which is why we have so many couches covered with naugahyde and so few naugas!

For today, let's see. Oh, I know:

"Where does the sky begin?" http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

And, the signature I'm using these days could also be considered a koan.

<font size=1>Note concerning yesterday's koan: I read that in Buddhist philosophy, only a Buddha could envision nothingness. Hmm.</font>

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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

I have my Butter Pecan...where's my koan?
Koan:Why is the crack in your hiney verticle? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

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Boldly Going Nowhere

The sky begins where the ground ends....which is where?

Food for thought here. I'd say Shootist's koan is answered by: gravity. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) Saying the ground is where the sky begins is too simplistic, though...what if you're in a cave underground?

My koan tonight will be a zen knock-knock riddle.

"Knock-knock!"
"Who's there?"
"No one."
(Eternal silence)

Another possibility for the third line would be, "You are," but then the koan becomes decidedly Vulcan in character...

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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

Holy crap, I must be in the wrong thread.......

Nah IM. the crack in yer hiney is vertical so that when you slide down a sliding board you don't go bib-a-lib-bib-a-lib bib-a-lib like when you pucker up, make a noise and strum your lips like a guitar. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)
Today's koan: How much does sound weigh?

Sound weighs, hmmmmmm. Nothing?

sound weight as much as the amount of pressure it puts on your eardrum.

That's a good one. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif) I'll go climb a mountain and think about it for a year or so...

Right off the bat it strikes me that sound is vibration...or even more simply, it is the effect energy has on air molecules. Now, Einstein tells us that energy and matter are interchangeable--which means that if converted to matter, energy would correspondingly exhibit mass. It would indeed weigh something. Aaa-aah! Headache! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

Actually, sound is the INTERPRETATION of waves in the audio range by the brain. My guess is that this interpretation weighs nothing, but as you folks say, the sound WAVES may have some force that can be interpreted as weight. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

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Boldly Going Nowhere

So explain to how much this message is weighed if you said it out loud?

If I don't say it out loud will a tree still fall in the forest? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

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Boldly Going Nowhere

'Is the glass half empty, or is it half full?'

"Give me your glass!' http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

If a tree falls on the only person in the forest who could have heard it...will that person be reincarnated with an unreasonable fear of silent trees? These are deep questions... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Okay, a serious koan: "How does a drop of water exist?"

--And no, the point isn't surface tension. We're actually talking about the singular nature of one drop of water versus, say, a river...is there only one drop of water, or are there countless drops? What is a 'drop' except just a temporary illusion of form anyway? Hmm...

Best answer gets a dream date with Hillary Rodham Clinton. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

[This message has been edited by Imladil (edited May 21, 2000).]

Ok serious, I'll try http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif) Well I'd say a river is just countless drops of water. A river starts out as one drop of water anyway. Rivers always start in mountains, and when some snow starts to melt and it just drips one drop at a time, and eventually it makes a puddle, then a pond, then a lake, then all the water in the lake flows down the mountainside as a river.


I don't know if anyone here is a student, but school sucks, thank our god IMLADIL that it's over soon. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Yes. Ii must agree Chillin. I get out June 6. Then during the summer Ii will start my plan of taking over the universe! Hahahahaha... of coarse with Imladils permission.

[This message has been edited by The Master (edited May 21, 2000).]

To get back on topic here's a koan: If we are not "this crude matter" than what are we?
(Quoting Yoda)

Permission to enjoy happiness denied! Instead of having a nice summer vacation, you both will have to attend summer education. Oh, it's not that bad. I have five classes selected that you can take (choose two.)

1: Tapestry weaving in ancient Rome. Learn how to make wall hangings the old fashioned way! Evening classes conducted by firelight.

2: Spanish for farmers. Learn the all-important linguistic skills needed by the modern industrial farmer (so you can talk with your workers, pendejo.)

3: Mystical symbolism of Buddhist Tibet. Ever stare at a sand painting for eighteen hours? Here's your chance!

4: Practical math for quantum physicists. Ever deal with numerical equations that essentially describe how a thing can be both everything and nothing? Aspirin provided with course materials.

5: Training badgers at home for blood sport. (My personal favorite.) Get a foothold in the nightlife while experiencing the beauty and brutality of mother nature firsthand. Course not offered in any state with a criminal justice system.

It'll be fun--you'll see. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

Chillin: you posted your koan while I was working on that last post. I will have to compose my answer carefully...probably tonight, after I've had a chance to think on it.

Essentially, you're wandering into the philosophical void of soul existance. Dicey stuff.

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

All rightey, then. Here we go. My purpose here is to provide a possible explanation for the mystery discussed, but not necessarily the only one (a nod to In Search Of, there.) I'm one of those whackos that think that all the religions are talking about pretty much the same thing, and this explanation is going to wander a bit from worldview to worldview in stark refusal of recognizing those cultural boundaries. It is not my intention to offend or alienate anyone who believes differently...but in order to address Chillin's koan, I will have to discuss my own beliefs a bit. Think of it as philosophy instead of religion, if that helps. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

Anyway. In the second Star Wars movie, Yoda takes up the enormous task of teaching Luke about the true nature of the Force and the universe in general. When he speaks of being 'luminous beings, not this crude stuff,' Yoda seems to be indicating that our bodies and our selves are of different natures. Without using the word soul, by talking of that quality which transcends the physical he is nevertheless speaking of the same thing.

Okay, smart guy. What is a soul? And how is it different from our physical bodies?

In ancient wisdom we find mention of four elements...and a fifth, often called 'aether.' Not to be confused with element elements (which we now chart extensively on the periodic table), these four can best be described as the four vibrational states of matter. Heat is vibration, and the amount of heat applied to a substance makes it take one of four forms: solid, liquid, gaseous or plasma (a candle flame is a plasma). The fifth state, 'aether,' is best equated with our conventional understanding of energy. Since good old Einstein has already demonstrated quite well that energy and matter are interchangeable, we can see how energy is the fifth state of being that this 'stuff' takes.

But a soul is something else altogether. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

We discuss this matter quite a bit at www.jediknight.net*). (http://www.jediknight.net*.) I tend to represent the new age mystic on the forum, so the question was directed to me once why the new-agers tended to think that their souls were comprised of energy. After some discussion, we decided that 'energy' is a thing that can be measured--and a soul clearly cannot be measured...but I did argue successfully that the soul would have to be able to manifest energy from time to time so that it could interact with the physical body. One cannot deny that the soul interacts with the physical self, and that interaction implies an energy/matter relationship of some sort. But it is more than mere energy; when we die, we go somewhere outside the physical universe, and no matter which form you think that afterlife takes...it no longer takes place in the form of physical existance.

The best description I've been able to come up with for what it is that makes a soul real, is that it is the soul's own point of view which makes it real. Basically, if you're here and you're perceiving yourself to be here...you have a soul. One could almost say, 'I think; therefore, I am,' but that would be getting Descartes before des horse. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

Okay. Nice use of new age pseudo-religious Star Trek-science bull**** there, Imladil, but you still haven't given us a good explanation of what is a soul made of? Well, no I haven't. We don't know the answer to that question, but I can tell you that it is more or less the conclusion of mystics throughout history that the soul ultimately resides not in the body at all...but as a part of the greater glory of God. We are each, it would seem to this humble mystic, a smaller spark of a greater flame. And that flame is the only true reality, with this whole physical existance thing a play of light and shadows--not real at all, but an illusion.

So, if my soul is real, and the entire physical universe is an illusion of less substantiality...can I get out of paying taxes? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif) I mean, why bother?

*<font size=1>I go by the handle Zoom Rabbit, in the 'Cantina' forum--stop in and visit me there, too! </font> http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

[This message has been edited by Imladil (edited May 22, 2000).]

So if we as humans have souls, what about animals?

Well, this is just my own take on the matter...but every living thing that is created, experiences existance, then dies would naturally have a soul. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif) All the way down to the amoeba.

Okay, here is a new koan for today:

"How real is the image in a mirror?" As usual, the immediate answer misses the point. Obviously, the reflection is just that--light bouncing back the other way. More to the point, how can we be sure which is the original image and which is the reflection?

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

I didn't think anyone would take this so seriously, I'm IMLADIL either your some sort of genius and pull this stuff from the top of your head or you really did some research.
Good God some of this stuff is deep!

Thanks, Chillin. Mysticism and the greater nature of reality in general are a subject of much thought for me. I do a lot of research into the matter, but a lot of it comes from within as well. Normally, I don't talk about this stuff at this forum because the subject branches so readily into religion...and not everyone here wants to open up a debate on religion! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

On the other hand, we can certainly discuss these questions from the philosophical point of view. The zen koan is an instrument of philosophy as well as spiritual enlightenment, so they can be safely discussed in a secular setting. Besides, they exercise the 'brain muscles.'

...And y'all thought you were here just to talk about video games! http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

As for the 'drop of water' matter. How big IS a drop? Rain drops even come in different sizes. As far as I can see, no drop of water is capable of doing much by itself. One drop doesn't halt a drought, slake a thirst, make a good shower, or even last very long alone. About the only thing a single drop can do is short out my electric curlers. Nothing great. When united they are perhaps the strongest force on Earth. Perhaps a metaphor for the frailty of the human condition?

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VERY FUNNY SCOTTY, now please beam down my PANTS!!!

IMLADIL, about the reflection in the mirror, well I think you have a point. How do we now we're not looking on into some other dimension where we aren't real in the physical state.

Or mabey the reflection is our soul and It's taking a look at us, mabey it is our soul and it creates an illusion in our brain to make us believe we are seeing ourselves. If it is just an illusion made by the soul than how do we know what we really look like, our faces could be hideous and we would never know.

Mabey our souls can even project this image to other people so we look the same to everyone.

Back on that other dimension thing how do we know that we are not the reflection? Just because we can feel and touch things? You all saw the Matrix right? Well they said our senses are just electrical impulses to the brain, it doesn't deside which of those impulses is real it just makes us think they're real. I think that kindof comes close to what your asking. So basicaly we may never know if the image in the mirror is real. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/confused.gif) This stuff is going to keep me up all night!

Yow! Disengage mental drive for awhile there, buddy, let things cool down a bit. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif) You're gonna look awful silly if your hair catches on fire...

When stuck in a repeating logic loop of the type Chillin describes with the mirror, it can be helpful to smash the mirror. Reality reasserts itself almost immediately.

How big can a drop of water be, Shootist? I dunno, how big are the world's oceans, anyway? http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif) When I consider the drop of water koan, I find it to be an exploration of form. A drop of water is only a separate drop so long as it remains apart from the 'great drop'...then it ceases to exist as an individual drop when it rejoins the ocean--and yet, that drop of water is not destroyed at all. By considering the relationship between drops and 'great drop' I see reflected a good model of how our physical universe is constantly doing the same thing (albeit on a different scale.) But that's just what I get from it...it should reveal different truths to each individual who considers it deeply enough.

Zen elephant joke:

Q: "What has a trunk, four legs and floppy ears?"
A: "It is not an elephant."

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)


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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

I did all that in the morning before school, I don't know mabey that time when I'm awake, but not quite, is the time when I really think.

Well, Imladil, could it be an, ummmmmmm, Elephant?

I guess I'm slow or something but I didn't get IMLADIL's joke. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/confused.gif)

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I have graced this topic with my artistic writing, you should all be forever thankful.

REFLECTION of an elephant!!!

Alright I got it, I got it. Take it easy. Yikes.

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I have graced this topic with my artistic writing, you should all be forever thankful.

One possible answer to the elephant riddle: it could be a rabbit on vacation.

Okay, so that wasn't really a koan. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif) I just wanted to keep things loose...

For today, I have a real one (Well, as real as my pink little brain comes up with, anyway.) "Does a rainbow have a middle?"

<font size=1>Curious note: the half awake or hypnagogic state that Chillin describes is the same state of mind sought by meditation.</font>

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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

Well IMLADIL a rainbow is just light reflecting off of water droplets, and light doesn't have mass(I think) so I'd say a rainbow doesn't have a middle. But if you mean something like can you cut a rainbow in half in the middle then, yes.
Here's a practical koan...

Why do ion lasers(in rogue squadron) blow up everything instead of disabling it, except for that train. I understand that the TIEs would just fall to the ground like usual, but why don't Turbolasers or AT-STs just stop and be disabled?

Well the game programers probably didn't have time to program all that extra stuff, like being able to disable smaller insignificant enemys. And it would confuse the computer anyways, because you would hit the enemy a certain amount of times and that would be the amount of regular fire power you have to shot it regularly. Just my ideas. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)

That and the fact that BOOMs and FLAMES sell better. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

Hmmm...I think that the ion cannon disables just fine; it's just in the AT-ST's nature to blow up, that's all.

Q: "Why did the chicken walker cross the road?"
A: "Because I was CHASING IT--! C'mere, you little **** dog! I'm a-gonna BLAST ya!"

The rainbow koan makes more sense if you've ever tried to find the rainbow's end. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif) How can a thing with no end have a middle? Actually, I tried this one on somebody at work, and they pointed out that if you see a rainbow while you're in the air, it's actually circular...and in that case the rainbow's middle would have to be in the center of the circle--not on the rainbow at all.

Interesting thing, the circle. Ever try to draw a perfect circle, freehand? It's almost impossible, but doing so was a mental exercise that was another facet of zen meditation. The artist believed that the condition of his circle was a reflection of his state of mind...and that he could only draw a perfect circle if he was perfectly enlightened. Try it...you may be surprised how hard it is to do!

http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/biggrin.gif)




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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

Well, my circle looks like a squashed puppy.

What went wrong?

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"Beware the bearded one."

Nothing went wrong. Since you are an evil Vulcan space pirate from an alternate universe, the squashed puppy state of mind is probably an accurate potrayal of your psyche.

My circle doesn't look like a circle at all, but a sphere. Someone explain that to me... http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/wink.gif)

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"Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?"
--Thrustweasel of Earth

And who might that be?

Mine looks pretty close except that it looks slightly more like an oval.

Mine looks like a hairy egg...with a machette buried in it.

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VERY FUNNY SCOTTY, now please beam down my PANTS!!!

SHOOTIST, how many times have you been to an insane asylum?

My circle looked like Kason's head exploding.

Just this once...I promise. http://www.roguesquadron.net/forums/smile.gif)

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VERY FUNNY SCOTTY, now please beam down my PANTS!!!

[This message has been edited by Shootist (edited May 28, 2000).]

Another question about wierd things on the game that has the same answer as the one about the ion lasers...Why do stormtroopers blow up and how would you be able hear them scream way up in the air?

Well, I have a theory of why they blow up. They look like they have some kind of pack on that would explod when shot.