One can also take note that Negative_Sun changed his name to GodSlayer. This brings up questions about his agenda in this thread.
It might be wise for you to investigate the first post of this thread (
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=171881) before making a veiled accusation.
That henceforth, Negative_Sun is no more, he shall be known as GodSlayer (inspired by a Spawn comic book, not heresy :) )
For everyone, it's always better to assume someone has good intentions, or at least doesn't have negative intentions, until they really prove themselves otherwise.
I'm actually enjoying the argument, Mac. It's making me think and making me do some research on some really tough topics. If we can't defend our faith, then who's going to do it for us? Do I care about others' salvation? Sure. Because I know having a relationship with Him is a very special thing. I like sharing that. Am I going to be upset if someone disagrees? No, I respect their decision to decline.
I'm still working on my arguments--got delayed by a board meeting last weekend and some of the resulting fallout, and last night, while I was sitting at dinner, the ceiling in our kitchen, which got damaged by water, gave way. I was sitting in my chair when I felt something drop on my head. I got up to look at the ceiling to see what was going on, and a 3x3 foot/1x1m piece of very wet and therefore heavy drywall crashed down on the place I had vacated literally only a moment before. It shattered a vase that was sitting on the table, and part of it hit me and caused a couple bruises, but nothing like what would have happened if I hadn't gotten out of my chair when I did--I would have ended up in the hospital with a concussion or worse.
I call it divine intervention, because I generally have terrible luck. :)
We cleaned up 5 trashbags of vermiculite insulation and wet drywall, and we have a lot of dusty stuff to clean up before my stepbrother comes over to help us repair the damage, so hopefully I can work something up before next week, since I have some fine arguments from William Lane Craig to add to the mix. :)
It might be wise for you to investigate the first post of this thread (
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=171881) before making a veiled accusation.
For everyone, it's always better to assume someone has good intentions, or at least doesn't have negative intentions, until they really prove themselves otherwise.
I'm actually enjoying the argument, Mac. It's making me think and making me do some research on some really tough topics. If we can't defend our faith, then who's going to do it for us? Do I care about others' salvation? Sure. Because I know having a relationship with Him is a very special thing. I like sharing that. Am I going to be upset if someone disagrees? No, I respect their decision to decline.
I didn't see GodSlayer's explination. Thanks for the heads up. Since I don't read every thread in the forums, I don't catch all the conversations. Thanks.
I respect their opinions. However, I don't believe anyone should be put into a circumstance, which they have to defend their beliefs. I thought with an nieve mind that we lived in a world of tolerance, and people were respectable enough not to step into these types of conversations. Imagine my surprise when I walked into this thread.
I know my name change might not be the best timing, nut my two cents in this thread have already turned into a few grand, so I don't think I have anything left to say...
If my name is offensive to anyone I will gladly change it back, I'd rather stay on good terms with people anyways :)
I respect their opinions. However, I don't believe anyone should be put into a circumstance, which they have to defend their beliefs. I thought with an nieve mind that we lived in a world of tolerance, and people were respectable enough not to step into these types of conversations. Imagine my surprise when I walked into this thread.
There is a rather significant difference between having to defend your beliefs, and freely discussing matters concerning your beliefs with others because you find it interesting and educating (and most discussions tend to be rather boring if everyone involved has the same opinion about everything :)).
Tolerance and respect does not mean to be afraid of discussing a matter in a civil manner just because it might offend someone. If that was the case you couldn't ever talk about anything since it's bound to offend someone somewhere. That would only lead to stagnation. :)
Discussion can be intellectually stimulating, open your eyes to a new perspective and angle on a matter you haven't considered before, or serve to strengthen your own arguments. If that kind of discussion makes you uncomfortable there is certainly nothing that forces you to read this thread. Just ignore it and let those who find it interesting have their fun.
I cannot see why religion needs to be debated. God did not hold a voting session, and then ask: "What rules do you wish to follow?".
Religion is not just Christianity. Christianity is a form of religion. It has its own set of symbols that create mood and motivations (see the definition I posted). The original question was specifically asking about how you couls be a good persona nd eventually go to hell. That actually is a Christian form of view. Religion is a system within the system of culture.
I give up. People haven't changed my perspective, but I give up on trying to make my case. If you people believe it is ethical to tell our younger visitors that their social beliefs are flawed, I can do absolutely nothing in my power to stop you. If you people believe it is morally responsible to continue this conversation, there is absolutly nothing I can do. I will just leave you be.
Keep in mind that the youngest amonst us is around 9 years old.
Should We Respect Religion?:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=172020&page=2)
Jesus Camp - Religion or Brainwashing?:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=172063)
Is religion evil?:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=167815)
Islamic Fascism:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=169830)
"Why I care about Religion?":
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=172011)
(I loved this one. He is being sarcastic. This is tolerated?)
Is God Evil Like the Devil is portrayed as?:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=169013)
How far do we go until someone says, "Stop." Regardless about your religious group, you should not have to defend your beliefs in these forums.
I opened this thread up, so people will know they are not alone in their feelings about this issue:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=171993)
How far do we go until someone says, "Stop." Regardless about your religious group, you should not have to defend your beliefs in these forums.
Mac, we all know you are not happy with the thread but there is nothing wrong about people expressing their beliefs and explaining what they are and why they believe/don't believe in something. Stop making posts about whether this topic should be discussed or not in this this thread. If you have something to say, either PM or use the thread you made in the feedback forum but not here. This thread will not be closed.
To everyone: now, back on topic
- Darth333
How far do we go until someone says, "Stop." Regardless about your religious group, you should not have to defend your beliefs in these forums.
I don't see what the problem is. If you can't defend your belief, it simply means that you don't believe in it enough to find a reason to defend it or you don't know if you truly believe in it. Either way, adding doubt can be beneficial to someone's spiritual journey.
I understand that some atheist's and Christian's methods at defending their point of view is flawed, very flawed, and it's regrettable. I won't start pointing fingers.
If a 9 year old comes to the forums and sees these debates, how is it bad? How does the shattering of their vision of society a bad thing? I know kids need a certain amount of innocence which is the fun thing with kids, but you're jumping to conclusions here. Maybe one of them will be awakened to Christianity, maybe he'll be awakened to Atheist reality, who knows? Maybe it'll be against the way he was educated, maybe it'll follow the way he was educated.
It's even probably is morally our duty to discuss this as it might give those kids a different point of view. They grew up with parents who said the other group is evil, now they get to see what the other thinks like. It's beautiful.
I give up. People haven't changed my perspective, but I give up on trying to make my case. If you people believe it is ethical to tell our younger visitors that their social beliefs are flawed, I can do absolutely nothing in my power to stop you. If you people believe it is morally responsible to continue this conversation, there is absolutly nothing I can do. I will just leave you be.
I'd have to disagree, Mac. Probably one of the best things about these religious topics at LF is that you don't have to partake in them. If you don't feel like debating your beliefs, you don't have to. However, threads like these are for that. That's why people debate in them. If you don't want to yourself, which I and everyone else fully respect, you don't have to. But replying to a thread for debating this issue and expecting not to end up debating it isn't the best idea. :)
How far do we go until someone says, "Stop." Regardless about your religious group, you should not have to defend your beliefs in these forums.
You don't have to. That's one of the great things about this place, with how people who share such different views on this issue (or any others) can talk to each other about it whenever they want and (to a degree) however they want. I may disagree with Christianity itself, but that hasn't stopped me from getting to know and be on good terms with Chrisitans here. We may have different perspectives on the matter, but I've not yet seen a post that has outright insulted me for my beliefs. You only have to defend them should you want to, and you can stop at any time. No one (who's fairly decent) is going to attack you for your views. :)
Keep in mind that the youngest amonst us is around 9 years old.
What on Earth have you done to your son, Jae!? :p
I disagree all around. I will leave you people to your debate.
Where the heck are the parents of that 9 year old? TotoFett22 doesn't get on the forum--we have some rather sassy conversations here, and I don't want to have to explain some of the innuendo (and believe me, he'd ask). Two Hotel Asylum inmates in the family are plenty. :D
We are very intentional about raising our kids in our faith. In our experience, those parents who raise their kids with no faith, claiming the kids can decide their own faith on their own when they're old enough, end up with kids with no faith. We want ours to start with a faith base and then make choices accordingly after that.
Mac, I don't think that anyone is trying to corrupt any youth here with our views. I'm not forced to be here anymore than anyone else is--we choose to be here. I didn't come here with the intent of cramming Christianity down anyone's throat--I just want to explain why I believe the way I do, and I want to understand why those of other faiths or no faith believe the way they do. I live in a pretty Catholic community with almost no chance of interacting with anyone outside of some Christian faith base. I enjoy hearing how others feel about their particular faiths/non-faith.
Not everyone is comfortable with this type of thread and some may find it distressing, and in that case it might be a good idea for those who find this kind of thread uncomfortable simply to skip the religion threads entirely. There are so many other topics for discussion here on the forums that also welcome good debate, I don't think any of us would be at a loss if we skipped a thread or two.
TotoFett22 doesn't get on the forum--
That explains Jimbo's sig. I'd been curious.
We are very intentional about raising our kids in our faith.
We want ours to start with a faith base and then make choices accordingly after that.
Don't most kids who are raised with a certain faith (or lack of faith) stay with it, according to your logic? :)
We are very intentional about raising our kids in our faith. In our experience, those parents who raise their kids with no faith, claiming the kids can decide their own faith on their own when they're old enough, end up with kids with no faith. We want ours to start with a faith base and then make choices accordingly after that.
Who says those kids end up with no faith? Maybe they'll just have faith in something other than Christianity, is that really so bad? At least they had the freedom to choose what they want to believe in, and it wasn't forced upon them from birth...I'll take that way for sure, freedom of speech and what you believe in is very important IMO, and Atheist parents can raise their children just as well as Christian ones...
Who says those kids end up with no faith? Maybe they'll just have faith in something other than Christianity, is that really so bad? At least they had the freedom to choose what they want to believe in, and it wasn't forced upon them from birth...I'll take that way for sure, freedom of speech and what you believe in is very important IMO, and Atheist parents can raise their children just as well as Christian ones...
In my experience, that's what I've seen, however, it's not true in 100% of cases. Madalyn Murray O'Hair's son is a Christian and grew up in an atheistic household. There are plenty of people who grow up with one religion and follow another or no religion at all. However, every person I've met whose parents left it to them as children to decide on their own religion ended up with no particular religion at all; most had a vague 'God is out there, I think' kind of view.
I never meant to even remotely imply that non-Christian parents are bad. I know a Wiccan couple and an agnostic couple and both couples are very caring and wonderful parents. I do think that saying 'Oh, I'll just leave it up to my kid to figure out' is a cop-out on the parents' part. Parents need to make some kind of decision one way or another on religion/no religion and have the courage to go with it rather than wimping out, because the spiritual development of a child is just as important a part of their upbringing as learning to read and write. If you think a religion is important, than raise them with that. If you think atheism is important, then raise them with that, too. But don't take a fence-sitting approach--that's either laziness or fear of making a definitive decision on religion. Give them some kind of solid base to work from, and then let them make the decision when they've reached the point where they can investigate it for themselves.
@Emperor D--a lot of kids will stay the same faith as their parents, some won't. We think Christianity has some fabulous messages (Christ's love for humanity being the big one) and it's a definitive part of our lives. We want them to share in that with us because of all its benefits, hence our reason for being so intentional about it. If they investigate other religions or agnosticism/atheism when they're ready, they'll at least have a solid basis for comparison. If they decide to embrace another faith or no faith at all, we'd accept that. We sure wouldn't love them any less, though.
TF22 picked out his own name for the forum. My daughter's still a little young to pick a name yet. :)
We think Christianity has some fabulous messages (Christ's love for humanity being the big one) and it's a definitive part of our lives.
But what of simple ethics and morals?
(I'm not targeting your decision to raise your kids as Christians, by the way. :))
We want them to share in that with us because of all its benefits, hence our reason for being so intentional about it. If they investigate other religions or agnosticism/atheism when they're ready, they'll at least have a solid basis for comparison.
Doesn't that make them somewhat biased at the start, in your opinion?
But what of simple ethics and morals?The Bible's full of basic ethics and morals. What are you thinking they _won't_ learn in terms of ethics by being raised Christian?
Doesn't that make them somewhat biased at the start, in your opinion?
Absolutely there's a bias. Just like there is if a parent raises a child with any other religion or atheism. But that doesn't negate the fact that they still will have a choice if they so desire.
Doesn't that make them somewhat biased at the start, in your opinion?
There is always bias. That's the way the world works. There is no truly objective person. We all have what is called an ethnocentric view, the way how we view the world. My dad is a traditonal Mexican Catholic and thinks his way is right. That's the way how he views his world, the world he grew up in.
I know I have a bias because I think killing is wrong, sex before marriage is immoral and I think my specimens of australopithicines and Homo habilis and Homo erectus are good examples of the evolution of humans, a joke played by God in my insane opinion.
It's even probably is morally our duty to discuss this as it might give those kids a different point of view. They grew up with parents who said the other group is evil, now they get to see what the other thinks like. It's beautiful.
Duty? You could be right there though I am not entirely convinced. I think the goal of the teacher is to share knowledge. At some point in all our lives we become the teacher, whether it is to a kid or an adult. True forums like these do give the opportunity to show different points of view. Most of the things that I know have come through personal research into various topics that interest me.
In my experience, that's what I've seen, however, it's not true in 100% of cases. Madalyn Murray O'Hair's son is a Christian and grew up in an atheistic household. There are plenty of people who grow up with one religion and follow another or no religion at all. However, every person I've met whose parents left it to them as children to decide on their own religion ended up with no particular religion at all; most had a vague 'God is out there, I think' kind of view.
I never meant to even remotely imply that non-Christian parents are bad. I know a Wiccan couple and an agnostic couple and both couples are very caring and wonderful parents. I do think that saying 'Oh, I'll just leave it up to my kid to figure out' is a cop-out on the parents' part. Parents need to make some kind of decision one way or another on religion/no religion and have the courage to go with it rather than wimping out, because the spiritual development of a child is just as important a part of their upbringing as learning to read and write. If you think a religion is important, than raise them with that. If you think atheism is important, then raise them with that, too. But don't take a fence-sitting approach--that's either laziness or fear of making a definitive decision on religion. Give them some kind of solid base to work from, and then let them make the decision when they've reached the point where they can investigate it for themselves.
But what if the parents themselves don't know what to believe in? Should they teach their child something they don't fully support, I don't think that works out...Letting the child figure it out on it's own is a good thing, no matter what religion the parents are, they should always be there for the child and be ready to face tough questions, but never force their own religion or faith on the child.
If the child wants to believe in nothing, or believe there is maybe something out there then I say let it...
Read Are You There God? It's Me Margaret.
It's about the same situation that we are talking about right now. It's reading level is geared towards pre-teens but you'd be surprised at the insight kid's stuff offers.
The Bible's full of basic ethics and morals.
Without attacking it, some redundant things as well. :)
Absolutely there's a bias. Just like there is if a parent raises a child with any other religion or atheism. But that doesn't negate the fact that they still will have a choice if they so desire.
A choice, yes, but they'd be far more inclined to the religion they were raised with.
No one should have to defend their beliefs in a forums like this, and they should not be provoked into creating an arguement.
http://64.20.36.214/lucasforums.com/images/buttons/addreply.gif) <--- DON'T HAVE TO CLICK.
One can also take note that Negative_Sun changed his name to GodSlayer. This brings up questions about his agenda in this thread.No it doesn't.
A choice, yes, but they'd be far more inclined to the religion they were raised with.
Well I guess I am an exception. I was born and raised a Catholic. A Mexican-American Catholic so in my family we do the rosary and the posadas and all that good stuff. I am actually inclined to more nondenominational Christianity. Granted that Catholicism is a form of Christianity, it still differs from what my father wants me to be. I'm sure if he had the means he would have sent me to private school instead of being allowed to wallow within the great institution of public education which in the long run was better for me anyway. True that children may be more inclined towards what they were taught but that is why we have school. It is a means to show what else is out there.
A choice, yes, but they'd be far more inclined to the religion they were raised with.
I'm an exception too. I was raised in a very buddhist family yet don't follow it.
It would be interesting to find a study about this, because I would assume that parents are not the only factor in choosing a religion. School and the neighborhood a person grew up in could influence such a decision.
Is there a correlation between a child's religion and the one of his parents? Could be. It would be interesting to find out :)
Is there a correlation between a child's religion and the one of his parents? Could be. It would be interesting to find out :)
I was raised by a Christian and an agnostic. Although my dad (the Christian) would read the Bible to me, preach about how God existed and all that good religious stuff (other than going to church and being baptised), I started to doubt him at 9. My other agnostic parent never really talked about religion. :)
So I guess your earlier statement applies only to a few. It's difficult to make blanket statements because not everyone fits the model. You should see the havoc that is wreaked when we study hunters and gatherers. :xp:
So I guess your earlier statement applies only to a few.
Gosh, I never knew several people were the majority of all religion-raised kids. :xp:
Gee. I never knew you were a sarcastic sentient :xp: for lack of a better word at the moment.
My point was that statements like the one you made don't apply to everyone. You and I are living examples of it. :xp:
Gee. I never knew you were a sarcastic sentient :xp: for lack of a better word at the moment.
Well, you do now. :xp:
My point was that statements like the one you made don't apply to everyone. You and I are living examples of it. :xp:
But it does to quite a lot of people. :xp:
I have always known that based on you sparring with Jae :xp:
I happen to to like to play devil's advocate on issues like this because I was taught to think. I was taught to question a person's argument. Religion is no different from evolution or a social problem like homelessness. :xp:
A choice, yes, but they'd be far more inclined to the religion they were raised with.
My thoughts exactly, although it's not a bulletproof theory...Like I said at the very start of this thread, it comes down to common sense and good parenting, with good ethics and moral values, regardless of which religion they follow...
To be blunt, religion is a social problem. As someone who does not believe in any particular religion, I have an open mind on this subject, but religion should be a choice, as it is a belief. It should not be forced upon you by your family, on the other hand "belief" doesn't do a thing in the "afterlife" because when you die you with rot in a coffin for a hundred years until the government digs you up to make room for new ones, or you end up part of the compost when your ashes are scattered :D
One thing that particuarly annoys me about religion is that people are willing to kill themselves for a belief that is unfounded in so many ways that have no concrete proof. Evolution should have no opposition because there is concrete proof to sway the point, and yet there are those who oppose, and people accept this. However when people oppose certain religious beliefs (mentioning none because i don't want to be hunted down and killed), they are killed for opposing something that has no true proof... no proof that books were written by God or whatever the hell <insert religion here> calls him/her/it/heshe, and yet people think that they cannot be opposed.
No one religion can be considered over another because for the most part, if you'll pardon me, they are all entirely unfounded. I'm not going to go into details, but there is nothing to say that the New Testament (just making an example) was not written by a hermit living in a cave. There is as much proof that there is a God as there is that the force is real... and there are people who believe that to be true aswel...
Alright, I'm not gonna continue any further because I could rant aimlessly for hours, and I think I've stepped on enough people's toes for one night. Adue.
Religion is a system of symbols, blah, I already said this but it is a system within the system of culture. It is a complex issue when you start examining people and cultures because it becomes intertwined with the socio-politico aspect of it.