Twelve signs that democracy is crumbling. (
http://mvp-seattle.com/pages/pageFascism.htm) How many apply to the US today?
Myself, I'd say 12/12...
(As an aside, I can put names on only two of the faces on the pictures (Rumsfeld and Dubya) - who are the rest?)
That's similar to an essay I read some years ago from Umberto Eco:
http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html)
Pretty sobering stuff, if you happen to look at the world in a certain way.
Territorial aggression is explained to be mere destiny -- an unbidden greatness thrust upon the nation by history.
Not in Bush's case. Except maybe if you twist it to "it's our destiny to hunt terrorists".
But that's the only difference I found.
I keep in mind that this was a very biased article, but it's slightly frightening nonetheless.
Then again, I already knew Bush's idea of democracy could be far better:D.
:usa:
14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak.
(...) All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning (...)
OMG the H4xX0rz r teh t00l o' teh 3vil!11
Those signs do seem a bit hand-picked to fit the situation. I'd be more impressed if they were from some older article written before recent events.
"it's our destiny to hunt terrorists".
No, but god did tell him to bring democracy to iraq! :eyeraise:
Those signs do seem a bit hand-picked to fit the situation. I'd be more impressed if they were from some older article written before recent events.
You are right, of course, that the statements are put together for this occurence - and that some of them are even a mite overstated. Nevertheless they form a quite succinct summary of a country sliding into fascism. The only one that doesn't seem strictly necessary is the one about corporate power, and I'd be hard-pressed to come up with more items for the list.
Well, the Eco essay is over 10 years old at this point. I remember seeing it long before the 2000 election, and the Bush/ Gore debacle.
And while I wouldn't say it was a perfect fit to the current political situations here and abroad,.. there a more than a few things there that seem to be trending in somewhat alarming directions, and should be monitored very carefully.
Good morning all you wonderful US bashing people you. Nice to see I skip town only to find it’s more of the same. I’m shocked ShadowTempler I think your post are most US bashingest ever. Keep up the good work, but watch out for toms he is close. I do have to disagree with you on this.
Exuberant Nationalism = Has Americans never been?
Enemies Identified = When has the US not point out people we didn’t like? Native Americans, Blacks, and Hispanics Oh my?
Rights Disappear = Funny thing people have more rights now then they did when the country started. Last I checked it was just upper class white men at the beginning.
Secrecy demanded = Has it ever not been?
Military Glorified = Well I know that isn’t the case now.
Corporations Shielded = When haven’t they been?
Corruption Unchecked = Someone was keeping track?
Media Controlled = Oh please. I tend to look at is as out of control.
Rampant Sexism = The hole world has this problem.
Intellectual Bullying = I don’t recall a Time in America were this hasn’t been the case.
Police Militarized = What I would give for there to be a Soldier on every corner.
Elections Stolen = Do you know about the Electoral College. If not read up on it there is a lot that can go wrong and has in the past with this system. Bush wasn’t the 1st guy to be president w/o the popular vote.
http://www.fec.gov/pdf/eleccoll.pdf)
Looking at the so called “12 Warning Signs” here makes me think that if the opposite of these claims happen then the U.S. will fall. It has operated for its entire existence with these issues. So I guess it will last another 200 years.
If anyone can find one case in American history when none of these things were the norm I’ll give you credit for it and admit I’m wrong, because I would like to know about this golden era myself.
So,... let me get this straight:
Just because some (or, as you would have it, all) of these things have existed in one form or another throughout American history means:
a.) We don't need to be vigilant against trends we might observe moving in a certain direction;
b.) We shouldn't be working towards fixing deficiencies we see, and solving fascist-type tendencies where we might find them;
c.) And "Because it has always been that way to one degree or another" is a perfectly legitimate excuse for observing the status-quo, not making waves, and that any critique of the current Administration, or it's policies, or even the attitude of the country in general equals hatred, disloyalty, and non-Patriotism, tantamount to treason; we should therefore wholeheartedly accept any direction things move in and not worry about finding ourselves on a slippery slope.
When will we ever know if we cross the line and it's too late?
Eternal vigilance is the price we pay for wanting the system of government we do. And there always have to be those that stand up and critique the things they see that, left unchecked, might unwillingly, just push us all too far into one direction we never intended to go.
but watch out for toms he is close. I do have to disagree with you on this.
hey! I was being skeptical on this one!
Exuberant Nationalism = Has Americans never been?
Enemies Identified = When has the US not point out people we didn’t like? Native Americans, Blacks, and Hispanics Oh my?
etc...
Seems like you are the one bashing the wonderful US.... ;)
I'm gonna have to agree with Cosmos Jack on this one - using that rubric, the US could be called a fascist state at pretty much any point in its history...yet the American people enjoy more freedoms today than they ever have (after all, there are no Japanese-Americans in internment camps, no African-Americans enslaved on Southern cotton plantations, women and African Americans can vote and hold office...why don't we go back to 1920, or even 1800, and then see how fascist you think America is?). Also, I think it's not too controversial to say that the gold standards of fascism are Hitler's Germany and Stalin's USSR...I haven't heard anything about the government shutting down the New York Times or CNN because they printed views contrary to their beliefs, or reporters being arrested and sent to labor camps, or protestors being executed or sent to work camps. I have heard some citizens say that liberals are being treasonous when all they do is criticize the US and call our troops' efforts in Iraq illegitimate, but the last I heard, the Bush administration hadn't taken any action to throw Hilary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, or Teddy Kennedy in jail.
I think an important question is, would US liberal Democrats be any better? After all, during the Clinton presidency, we had Hilary stealing FBI files, President Clinton had a wiretapping project similar to the ECHELON project that President Bush is recieving such criticism over (by Al Gore, of all people), Democrats censor speech by calling anyone who disagrees with them on social issues "racist, bigot, woman-hater, or homophobe," while giving fellow liberals a pass, evidenced quite clearly by the Alito hearings, when Teddy Kennedy went after Alito's CAP membership (which, if you actually engage your brain, was in protest of Princton's banning of the ROTC program), mainly by lying about the group or taking quotes out of context from CAP's publications, when Kennedy himself was a paying member of a Harvard's Owl Club, which doesn't accept women as members...he was quick to disown the group once this was pointed out, but didn't seem too concerned before that...also evidenced by the fact that there has been no outcry or demand for an explanation and/or apology for Hilary Clinton's comments on Monday, when she said, "When you look at the way the House of Representatives has been run, it has been run like a plantation, and you know what I'm talking about." I don't know what she's talking about...I haven't heard anything about the House enslaving blacks and working them to death, but who knows - maybe Karl Rove covered it up. There also has been no outcry from the left (that I've heard of) about Ray Nagin's comments that New Orleans should be a 'chocolate' city, and that "This city will be a majority African American city. It's the way God wants it to be."
US Democrats also talk about how much they want minorities to succeed...until some minorities who happen to be of a different political persuasion do succeed, and then their success is somehow illegitimate, 'and you know what I'm talking about.'
And if you don't know what I'm talking about, check out Harry Belafonte's comments about Colin Powell:
"There's an old saying: In the days of slavery, there were those slaves who lived on the plantation and there were those slaves that lived in the house. You got the privilege of living in the house if you served the master ... exactly the way the master intended to have you serve him."
Or comments by 'The Black Commentator' on Condaleeza Rice, calling her not only a race traitor, but 'the Devil's handmaiden'.
Welcome back CJ. Nice to see you.
Good morning all you wonderful US bashing people you. Nice to see I skip town only to find it’s more of the same. I’m shocked ShadowTempler I think your post are most US bashingest ever. Keep up the good work, but watch out for toms he is close. I do have to disagree with you on this.
I have no quarrel with the American people.
Exuberant Nationalism = Has Americans never been?
Nationalism is not in and of itself a major problem. But the variety that's currently the norm is worrying for several reasons. It appears that Bush et al think that the USA has a divine mandate to unilaterally invade other countries for no good reason. The Bush regime is acting as if simply pointing and yelling 'terrorist' loud enough in and of itself is justification for a war. This is a wholly unprecedented development.
Enemies Identified = When has the US not point out people we didn’t like?
Native Americans, Blacks, and Hispanics Oh my?
I would argue that the bogus witch-hunt called the 'war on terror' is an unprecedented escalation.
Rights Disappear = Funny thing people have more rights now then they did when the country started. Last I checked it was just upper class white men at the beginning.
When you look at your bank statement, do you only look at your balance, or do you include your cash flow in your considerations as well?
Secrecy demanded = Has it ever not been?
Military Glorified = Well I know that isn’t the case now.
Uh-huh. What, then, about Bush's little 'mission accomplished' stunt, the 'support-our-troops-by-stopping dissent' line they've been spinning, the fact that Bush ran specifically on the 'war-time president' BS, despite the fact that the only war the US was (and is) involved in is (c) Oval Office.
Now, the problem isn't that so much that the military is held in reverence. The problem is that the hawks in the White House aren't a political party. They're a coup d'etat waiting to happen.
Corporations Shielded = When haven’t they been?
Again it's less a wholly novel invention than an escalation of already existing conditions. The Bush regime has purposefully created loopholes that allow multinationals to evade taxes, the IRS has been mutilated (even further), already weak anti-trust laws are now weaker than at any time since New Deal, and what sparse consumer protection once existed is being steadily rolled back.
Corruption Unchecked = Someone was keeping track?
No, that has probably always been the case in the US. Your entire political system seems fine-tuned for kleptocracy to an extend that Russian Oligarchs could probably take classes...
Media Controlled = Oh please. I tend to look at is as out of control.
Indeed. Fux Newds need to be reigned in (
http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/IraqMedia_Oct03/IraqMedia_Oct03_rpt.pdf). The problem is that they are out of control in favor of the current regime. So that's not going to happen.
Rampant Sexism = The hole world has this problem.
Not NW Europe. Heck, not even in South-west Europe. In the words of Howard Dean: "This is a Republican scandal only."
Intellectual Bullying = I don’t recall a Time in America were this hasn’t been the case.
There was a brief moment of lull after Roe v. Wade and Edwards v. Aguillard. Of course with so many neo-con political appointees and YECs (thank the FSM we got rid of Meirs!) on the SCOTUS, that just might change...
Police Militarized = What I would give for there to be a Soldier on every corner.
Read the blurb as well:
Fascist society is often willing to overlook police abuses and forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. Long jail sentences for clearly political offenses, torture and then assassination are at first uncomfortably tolerated, and then start to pile up to become the norm.
Abu Ghraib. Guantanamo Bay. Black CIA flights to Syria, Egypt, and Jordan. Cheney on record boasting that he personally authorised torture. NSA spying on American citizens.
Elections Stolen = Do you know about the Electoral College. If not read up on it there is a lot that can go wrong and has in the past with this system. Bush wasn’t the 1st guy to be president w/o the popular vote.
http://www.fec.gov/pdf/eleccoll.pdf)
That's not what I'm talking about. Do you know what the company called Diebold do for a living (apart from cheating the occasional million out of the American taxpayers)?
If anyone can find one case in American history when none of these things were the norm I’ll give you credit for it and admit I’m wrong, because I would like to know about this golden era myself.
While kleptocracy, cronyism, and - probably - fradulent elections have been the norm for a long time, it has historically hardly been worse than for - say - Namibia. It is now.
This concept of US bashing liberals is a bit odd. Its merely that whichever political faction isn't in power is bound to question and complain more than the one that is.
Conservatives are constantly bashing america's moral decline, its abortion laws, and other left wings issues that THEY object to, just as liberals bash excessively right wing issues such as fundamentalist leaders and so on. Thats the way its always been.
When Clinton was in power i remember republicans moaning just as much about his actions. How come that wasn't "US bashing"?
As for us international people, well you kind of dug your own grave there when you elected someone like GW and he invaded iraq. That kind of thing was never going to go down well in the international community... if only for the fact that it signalled the start of a much more isolationist/go it alone US.
Freedoms are a hard thing to quantify, as new developments and technologies open up new freedoms for us all the time, and then the government is permanently try to remove a lot of them from us for our own good. In some ways we are a lot more free than people in the past, but in others we are a lot less free.
It does appear to a lot of people that the US leadership is becoming more idealogical and less rational... but then i guess if we think back to people like reagan then he was hardly rational. :confused:
It does appear to a lot of people that the US leadership is becoming more idealogical and less rational... but then i guess if we think back to people like reagan then he was hardly rational. :confused:
But at least he was reasonably honest and civilised - for an American wingnut at least. He never made any pretenses that he governed for the benefit of anyone but the corporate oligarchy and he didn't (IIRC) make any major geopolitical ****ups.
Why the Americans elected him, though, that I don't understand :confused:
EDIT: Waay, post # 1000
He never made any pretenses that he governed for the benefit of anyone but the corporate oligarchy
Does bush?
and he didn't (IIRC) make any major geopolitical ****ups.
I don't know, his rabid anti-comunism probably caused the deaths of as many innocents as the war in iraq has..
I think they may have a point though, its easy to forget that the US has always had these leanings in its leaders (for the past 40 years or so at least) and maybe bush isn't so much worse than the rest of them.
Its just a lot of us are too young (:) ) to remember that much about reagan.. bush pt1 just blurs into bush pt2, and clinton was too busy with personal scandals to launch any crusades.
So GW is the first major contact a lot of us have had with fundamentalist religious crusading leaders in charge of the only superpower on earth, and its a bit of a shock... ;)
ShadowTempler
I see all of what you have to say is opinion. Not just yours but, opinion none the less. There has been far worse times to be an American.
This is a hiccup far from the end on the US and as easily as things have been put into place they can be removed. All we need is for the Democrats to win the next elections and everything that Bush has done will be removed in favor of the extreme opposite.
Most people seem to think that the USA should be totally benevolent. We should give freely, help all we can when asked, and be totally unconcerned with our own interests.
I look at it like this. If you have to do bad in order to do good that is what you do. What’s good for the US may not be what’s good for the rest of the world. I’m sure with as little as our politicians care what is good for the US population they are even less concerned with what’s good for the rest of the world. Anyone who thinks their Countries Governments are benevolent are fooling themselves.
The world’s problems are far from the fault of the US. If the US has influence were you live that is 100% your fault, the fault of your Nations people, and your government. Stop gripping about what the US should do, what’s wrong with the US, and start doing for your self. Work on making your country independent from the US. South America is doing a pretty good job if you ask me.
For added convenience. I have been called a fundamentalist on here a few times I see so I will point out what I really think.
I’m for gay rights
I’m for the Death Penalty
I’m for the right to Bear Arms
I’m against Religion across the board
I’m a Democratic Socialist, but I believe in having a strong military.
1. I believe all have the right to be free from harm with Safety, Security, and Equal Rights.
2. I believe in freedom of speech. As long as it doesn’t go against 1#
3. I believe everyone is initialed to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. As long as your pursuit doesn’t go against 1#.
I see all of what you have to say is opinion. Not just yours but, opinion none the less.
Uh-huh? Please tell me, what does Diebold do for a living?
There has been far worse times to be an American.
Undoubtedly.
This is a hiccup far from the end on the US and as easily as things have been put into place they can be removed. All we need is for the Democrats to win the next elections and everything that Bush has done will be removed in favor of the extreme opposite.
Maybe. But then again, maybe not. It takes far longer to build than to destroy.
Most people seem to think that the USA should be totally benevolent. We should give freely, help all we can when asked, and be totally unconcerned with our own interests.
A more than slight exaggeration. To a certain extend, being nice is your own interest. At the moment, the US is heading away from Europe. I personally don't believe that a wholesale break is likely (or - for the moment - desireable), but the idea isn't held solely by wingnuts anymore. It is telling that of the three other major powers in the world (Europe, Russia, and China), the US has the best relations with Russia and the worst with Europe.
The US has made itself intensely unpopular in many parts of the world. The American hegemony seems to have Caligula's "let them hate as long as they fear" as a byword for what passes for its foreign policy. I personally subscribe to Machiavelli's idea that your subjects must not hate you; for hate overcomes fear and he who hates will seek to harm you even to the point of his own assured destruction.
And quite apart from the issue of simple, common decency, it is in your direct interest not to torture people. It is in your direct interest to combat kleptocracy and corporate cronyism. It is in your direct interest to ensure transparent and honest elections.
In short, the US is working contrary to its own best interests because the current regime believes that the best interests of the US are secondary to the best interest of their corporate and religious cronies.
EDIT: Oh, and while we're at it, here (
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/01/18/scandal/index.html)'s) a laundry list of scandals from йl Prezidentй's first term in office.
I have to agree with Shadow here.
$400 billion dollars is the estimated price tag for landing on Mars.
$7-8 billion dollars would've given every child on Earth an education.
Which would make the world like you more, hm?
See, that's some facts in there, too, not just opinions:p.
Of course, readily available education would probably reduce the price tag of a mars expedition in the long run...
Ok here is why it’s an opinion…
I have no quarrel with the American people. This is the type of Government most Americans want. The conservatives put Bush in office and Republican controlled Capital Hill. Living were I live it’s hard to believe so much scandal was needed. So if most American feel like Bush then yes you have a quarrel with the American people.
Nationalism is not in and of itself a major problem. But the variety that's currently the norm is worrying for several reasons. It appears that Bush et al think that the USA has a divine mandate to unilaterally invade other countries for no good reason. The Bush regime is acting as if simply pointing and yelling 'terrorist' loud enough in and of itself is justification for a war. This is a wholly unprecedented development. Reason is subject to perspective and fact. I think the unprecedented development of 9/11 was unprecedented justification for war. Afghanistan was more then called for it begged. Iraq was engineered as a bid to have more control over the Middle East.
If you like it or not our enemy is fighting us in Iraq and not in the U.S. I don’t think U.S. Leadership has what it takes to win Iraq. The country needs someone like Saddam to keep it in line. Ruling with uter Fear is more powerful then what we can do. It’s not expectable for us to make a mistake, but it was exceptable for Saddam to intentionally do what he wanted. The US in any way you want to look at it is the lesser evil. The big difference is if we control Iraq Europe doesn’t. Saddam was our puppet before he was Europe’s
I would argue that the bogus witch-hunt called the 'war on terror' is an unprecedented escalation. I don’t believe in witches, but I do believe in terrorists. It is also unprecedentedly justified.
When you look at your bank statement, do you only look at your balance, or do you include your cash flow in your considerations as well? What have American lost in the way of real freedoms?
Uh-huh. What, then, about Bush's little 'mission accomplished' stunt, the 'support-our-troops-by-stopping dissent' line they've been spinning, the fact that Bush ran specifically on the 'war-time president' BS, despite the fact that the only war the US was (and is) involved in is (c) Oval Office.
Now, the problem isn't that so much that the military is held in reverence. The problem is that the hawks in the White House aren't a political party. They're a coup d'etat waiting to happen. No war? Really…. 9/11 was a hoax like the lunar landing right… Sorry the US is on the offensive and not in the defensive with our tale tucked between out legs. This must be a European quality that started after the end of the colonial period. Let’s just sit and hope nothing else bad happens maybe if we ignored Sept 11 they would just leave us alone?
No coup d'etat is going to happen don’t let me stop you from hoping. If it does I’m sure you have more to fear then me.
Again it's less a wholly novel invention than an escalation of already existing conditions. The Bush regime has purposefully created loopholes that allow multinationals to evade taxes, the IRS has been mutilated (even further), already weak anti-trust laws are now weaker than at any time since New Deal, and what sparse consumer protection once existed is being steadily rolled back. No you are telling me that Republicans are in office?
No, that has probably always been the case in the US. Your entire political system seems fine-tuned for kleptocracy to an extend that Russian Oligarchs could probably take classes... Well it seems hardly fare to compare honest thieving Americans to hypocritical Communists.
Indeed. Fux Newds need to be reigned in (
http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/IraqMedia_Oct03/IraqMedia_Oct03_rpt.pdf). The problem is that they are out of control in favor of the current regime. So that's not going to happen. Where in the world is there honest news 100% unbiased in any shape for or fashion?
Not NW Europe. Heck, not even in South-west Europe. In the words of Howard Dean: "This is a Republican scandal only." I do like the atmosphere better here. I get a good feeling that religion’s real power here is starting to come to an end. I can visit my GF and stay with here and nobody cares. Back home I’m on my way to hell. I would think it’s a wrong assumption to think it is gone. Most cases in the US are less about reality and more about winning a court case and getting money.
There was a brief moment of lull after Roe v. Wade and Edwards v. Aguillard. Of course with so many neo-con political appointees and YECs (thank the FSM we got rid of Meirs!) on the SCOTUS, that just might change... Most discontent with the scientific establishment in the US is religiously driven. From my experience the religious segment in the US is the majority. The republican party is driven and funded by them.
Read the blurb as well: Police in this country have way too little power.
Abu Ghraib. Guantanamo Bay. Black CIA flights to Syria, Egypt, and Jordan. Cheney on record boasting that he personally authorised torture. NSA spying on American citizens. I don’t really see it as torture to be honest. How do you get information from people who would rather blow themselves up then breathe? By giving them unconventional motivation.
How many of these people have been disfigured or watched there family slaughtered? There are a lot of countries in the world that do that type of torture but yet it’s the evil US once again.
Abu Ghraib wasn’t torture it was hazing. Except this was hazing of enemy combatants instead of the typical BS a lot of the military does to itself. It was a little more degrading and a little more personal then typical hazing I’m sure. Guantanamo Bay you are right we should let them all go. As for the CIA If you have to do something bad to do good….
That's not what I'm talking about. Do you know what the company called Diebold do for a living (apart from cheating the occasional million out of the American taxpayers)? Yes I’m sure it was necessary to still the vote given all the religious nuts in this country. As for corporation stilling money what’s new?
While kleptocracy, cronyism, and - probably - fradulent elections have been the norm for a long time, it has historically hardly been worse than for - say - Namibia. It is now. I like your stance really. From what I can tell you know everything that goes on in the US, you know how the majority of Americans think, and you have better intelligence then the old Soviet KGB. Hell if they knew as much as you maybe the Soviet Union wouldn’t have collapsed.
So see it’s your opinion about your perception. In my perception all of this is normal or necessary. The only difference is I’m an American and you are not. If we play by your rules then this county will end up like Israel. If it does then USA under conditions like that would disintegrate into a true Fascist State. Maybe even go down Hitler road.
Gotta say i agee a bit with both sides here. Though i did like Templar's Machiavellian quote.
It isn't the US's job to be nice and popular... but templar is right that it can help in some circumstances. However it isn't wrong for those of us outside the US to hope that it will be nice and popular. And to ask it to be.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=a9DQrHGB4hMk&refer=europe)
Seems like the EU is pretty sure the US was either actively torturing people on foreign soil, or outsourcing the torture to other regimes while it observed the results.
Again, maybe necessary to be nasty to avert a bigger danger - but increases the hate of the US, reduces its relations with neighbours, sets a bad example others may follow and stops you from being able to tell other countries how they should behave in terms of human rights.
Now maybe it was worth all that, but it had better have been some pretty darn important information they extracted.
Seems like the EU is pretty sure the US was either actively torturing people on foreign soil, or outsourcing the torture to other regimes while it observed the results. I watched this report this morning I like how the EU cries wolf only to end up as part of the pack. Who is really at fault the USA or the EU nations for turning a blind eye? The only problem is EU's right hand doesn't know what its left hand is doing.
The US has made itself intensely unpopular in many parts of the world. The American hegemony seems to have Caligula's "let them hate as long as they fear" as a byword for what passes for its foreign policy. I personally subscribe to Machiavelli's idea that your subjects must not hate you; for hate overcomes fear and he who hates will seek to harm you even to the point of his own assured destruction.
The rest of the world are our subjects? The American hegemony? The Europeans were a strong power in the world for many years. It imported by force its culture on each other and the rest of the known world. Sorry we stole your thunder. If the US has pushed you out of the way that is your fault. Hypocrisy?
I honestly don't care if the rest of the world hates me or the USA. If they are so unhappy as to strap a bomb to their back then their problems are a lot closer to home then the US. Maybe they should use that anger for constructive purposes make their own nations a better place?
I have to agree with Shadow here.
$400 billion dollars is the estimated price tag for landing on Mars.
$7-8 billion dollars would've given every child on Earth an education.
Which would make the world like you more, hm?
See, that's some facts in there, too, not just opinions:p.
Ok let’s see……..
7-8 Billion would educate every uneducated person in the world to at least a BS. Doesn’t sound right could you do the math for me? If it could what would all these educated people do with nothing? They would come to Europe and put you out of a job? Most are in pore countries with little or no real infrastructure.
I will guess the US gives more aid then any other country in the world. Add that to what the rest of the world gives and you will find very little has changed sense WWII.
Pore countries are still pore. They are pore not because the US doesn’t rip out its heart and give it to them. They are pore because their governments are corrupt and the people don’t have the ability or the will to change their lives. I don’t think you would like if we started hoping around the world overthrowing corrupt governments of pore nations for the sake of making the whole world a better place. It’s impossible so let’s just stick to places we have something to gain.
I’m a firm believer in Darwin and the survival of the fittest. If the US or any other nation falls that’s just the way it is. If millions of people die because of starvation / overeating then that is an obvious sign of inferiority as a culture. If the people there really don’t have what it takes to make life better for themselves it is their fault. Frankly I’m more worried about the Penguins then people.
Dagobahn Eagle and ShadowTemplar it is your job to open the eyes of the almost 300 million filthy rich Americans in the US. Tell them why their tax money should go to whole world’s wish list.
The cold hard truth like it or not is this.
Stop gripping about what the US should do, what’s wrong with the US, and start doing for your self.
What have American lost in the way of real freedoms?
Are you joking?
For starters, do a Google search for "PATRIOT ACT".
Well it seems hardly fare to compare honest thieving Americans to hypocritical Communists.
You realize oil garchs aren't communists, right?
Police in this country have way too little power.
It's not enough that they don't need search warrants anymore?
OK, tell me what powers you want them to have.
Where in the world is there honest news 100% unbiased in any shape for or fashion?
So because no news channel is 100% objective, Hoax News needn't even try to be objective? I don't think so, buddy. Hoax is a propaganda machine more than a news channel.
I don’t really see it as torture to be honest. How do you get information from people who would rather blow themselves up then breathe? By giving them unconventional motivation.
There's very little to suggest that the torture was a form of interrogation.
There are a lot of countries in the world that do that type of torture but yet it’s the evil US once again.
And of course we don't dislike it at all when Iranians hang rape victims or when other countries commit torture. Right:rolleyes:.
Abu Ghraib wasn’t torture it was hazing. Except this was hazing of enemy combatants instead of the typical BS a lot of the military does to itself. It was a little more degrading and a little more personal then typical hazing I’m sure.
OK, fine, call it hazing. Doesn't make it more right or justified, but if it's your deal, go right ahead:rolleyes:.
I will guess the US gives more aid then any other country in the world. Add that to what the rest of the world gives and you will find very little has changed sense WWII.
Guesses aside, though, it gives far less than the other countries in the world. In fact, it doesn't even meet the UN's requirements for foreign aid.
Guantanamo Bay you are right we should let them all go.
I wish people would realize that pulling things out of proportion like that brings them nowhere. Sorry, but unless someone actually said we should let the terrorists at Guananamo go, no one's going to listen to half-witted sarcasm such as that.
Who is really at fault the USA or the EU nations for turning a blind eye? The only problem is EU's right hand doesn't know what its left hand is doing.
Er..., i'll go for option 3: the US and the nations that turned a blind eye.
The EU isn't a nation state, so its hardly correct to say that it's left hand doesn't know what it's right hand is doing. Its a loose collection of nations (a bit like the UN) and sothe EU will almost never know what its member states are up to unless they tell it... but they do have obligations to behave in certain ways while tey are members... so if it discovers that they aren't then it is free to investigate, report and maybe punish.
This is the type of Government most Americans want. The conservatives put Bush in office and Republican controlled Capital Hill. Living were I live it’s hard to believe so much scandal was needed. So if most American feel like Bush then yes you have a quarrel with the American people.
Well, technically they only elected Bush the second time (officially). They elected Gore the first time, but the electoral college decided to screw the country over.
I don’t believe in witches, but I do believe in terrorists. It is also unprecedentedly justified.
If you fear terrorism, then the terrorists have already won. I don't fear getting blown up in a terrorist attack, because all I have to fear is fear itself. :)
What have American lost in the way of real freedoms?
We've lost the freedom to know what our government is doing, for one.
No war? Really…. 9/11 was a hoax like the lunar landing right… Sorry the US is on the offensive and not in the defensive with our tale tucked between out legs. This must be a European quality that started after the end of the colonial period. Let’s just sit and hope nothing else bad happens maybe if we ignored Sept 11 they would just leave us alone?
You can't kill islamic fundamentalism with bombs and bullets, because it's an idea, not a country that you can invade and take over. You have to fight it by not screwing with muslims and invading their countries. Afghanistan though was justified, but it was also justified to stay there and improve the lives of Afghans. There isn't a massive insurgency in Afghanistan, only remnant Taliban fighters. But we've abandoned Afghanistan for Iraq now, and the Afghans are the ones paying the price for that.
Police in this country have way too little power.
If they had anymore power I'd be afraid we'd be seeing things like the beating of a retired school teacher in New Orleans even more.
I don’t really see it as torture to be honest. How do you get information from people who would rather blow themselves up then breathe? By giving them unconventional motivation.
When you torture in order to get information, you get things like "Saddam has connections with al-Qaeda!" The informant who said that - and ultimately lead us to an unjustified war - was being tortured when he said so. Torture doesn't work, period. Torture only gets you what you want to hear, which might not be the truth.
How many of these people have been disfigured or watched there family slaughtered? There are a lot of countries in the world that do that type of torture but yet it’s the evil US once again.
But other countries around the world don't hold themselves above the rest of the world. We do. And when we go spouting about how great we are and how free we are, it's quite embarassing when photos of our soldiers humiliating, torturing, and murdering helpless prisoners get exposed around the world.
One of the reasons that Bush is now saying we invaded Iraq for is to free the Iraqi people so Saddam can't torture them anymore. We did NOT invade Iraq so WE could torture the Iraqi people.
Abu Ghraib wasn’t torture it was hazing. Except this was hazing of enemy combatants instead of the typical BS a lot of the military does to itself. It was a little more degrading and a little more personal then typical hazing I’m sure.
Call it what you want, it's still wrong, and the soldiers involved deserve to be stood in front of a firing squad.
So if most American feel like Bush then yes you have a quarrel with the American people.
Maybe in the past when they were in the grip of fervent nationalism... but at the moment aren't his approval ratings in the toilet? So they'd probably be mostly agreeing..
Ok Dagobahn Eagle I’m going to respond in the same way you did. See if I can sound like a version of you, but on the other side.
Are you joking?
For starters, do a Google search for "PATRIOT ACT" . If a guy is looking up how to make a bomb on the net then I think that’s red flag. It should be investigated and the Gov. should know. "PATRIOT ACT" “We want to be free we want to be free no mater what.” Why haven’t we taken away the Muslims rights to speak Arabic that surely can be used against us? That is ok in Europe is it not?
Ok let’s not focus on Europe’s problems then you might have to hold your self accountable it's better to pin it on the US right?
You realize oil garchs aren't communists, right? You realize what I was talking about right? No, but respond anyway…
It's not enough that they don't need search warrants anymore?
OK, tell me what powers you want them to have. Probable Cause should be all they need. I can think of some other things but you wouldn’t like them.
So because no news channel is 100% objective, Hoax News needn't even try to be objective? I don't think so, buddy. Hoax is a propaganda machine more than a news channel. Fox News is a company if you don’t like it send them a letter and yes basically. Why expect them to be any different then Al Jazeera?
There's very little to suggest that the torture was a form of interrogation. woops
And of course we don't dislike it at all when Iranians hang rape victims or when other countries commit torture. Right:rolleyes:. Doesn’t seem that you care at all if you ask me. If an American steps on an Iraq’s foot they need to be shot. If Iran hangs a rape victim you say it was an American that raped them.
OK, fine, call it hazing. Doesn't make it more right or justified, but if it's your deal, go right ahead:rolleyes:. Nothing like a little torture at 3:05 AM if you ask me. I was 5 min late.
Guesses aside, though, it gives far less than the other countries in the world. In fact, it doesn't even meet the UN's requirements for foreign aid. What I want to know is when we are going to stop. Foreign aid is a money pit.
I wish people would realize that pulling things out of proportion like that brings them nowhere. Sorry, but unless someone actually said we should let the terrorists at Guananamo go, no one's going to listen to half-witted sarcasm such as that. Then what do you want to do with them? We don’t know what to do with them. There are too many and they are most all guilty. It takes time to figure out who are really the trouble makers. They really want to blow things up. I say we let them go and give them free tickets to Europe so they can bathe in the blood of your bleeding hearts.
Well, technically they only elected Bush the second time (officially). They elected Gore the first time, but the electoral college decided to screw the country over. That is the Electoral College job to decide when they think the people are wrong. Looks like they were right cause like you said he was elected the 2nd time.
If you fear terrorism, then the terrorists have already won. I don't fear getting blown up in a terrorist attack, because all I have to fear is fear itself. :) I don’t really fear much of anything to be honest. I am however tired and my tolerance of BS is wavering.
We've lost the freedom to know what our government is doing, for one. I could lose count of all the stuff you don’t need to know. The press is to the point where it puts Americans in danger if you ask me. Do you really need to know the names of CIA agents or US troop movements in war zones? If you are unhappy learn Arabic and tune into Al Jazeera. I’m sure they are more along your line of thinking.
You can't kill islamic fundamentalism with bombs and bullets, because it's an idea, not a country that you can invade and take over. You have to fight it by not screwing with muslims and invading their countries. Afghanistan though was justified, but it was also justified to stay there and improve the lives of Afghans. There isn't a massive insurgency in Afghanistan, only remnant Taliban fighters. But we've abandoned Afghanistan for Iraq now, and the Afghans are the ones paying the price for that. Islamic fundamentalism is funded and protected by Muslim countries. It is in their best interest to keep them fighting us. That way it isn’t their fault the people are suffering it is the USs.
We are in the shape we are in now, because of thinking like Europeans and thinking like you. Maybe instead of accepting the Middle East for what the Europeans left it as. We should have forced democracy before we had the type of fundamentalism there is now. Now it is too late I think.
We have abandoned Afghanistan? I need to tell my old Unit they are alone.
If they had anymore power I'd be afraid we'd be seeing things like the beating of a retired school teacher in New Orleans even more. Are you the kind of person that needs to get beat? If so I would say don’t resist arrest that really ticks cops off..
When you torture in order to get information, you get things like "Saddam has connections with al-Qaeda!" The informant who said that - and ultimately led us to an unjustified war - was being tortured when he said so. Torture doesn't work, period. Torture only gets you what you want to hear, which might not be the truth. I doubt that the info came from an informant more like a president bent on going to war. That’s just logic on my part. All the so called tortured informants were political refuges that had their own agenda. If you have any proof that there were tortured informants please point it out for me.
How many terrorist attacks have there been in the US sense 9/11?
But other countries around the world don't hold themselves above the rest of the world. We do. And when we go spouting about how great we are and how free we are, it's quite embarassing when photos of our soldiers humiliating, torturing, and murdering helpless prisoners get exposed around the world.
One of the reasons that Bush is now saying we invaded Iraq for is to free the Iraqi people so Saddam can't torture them anymore. We did NOT invade Iraq so WE could torture the Iraqi people. We do and we are that’s not the question and we have a long way to go before we aren’t.
Helpless prisoner pore pore helpless prisoner. If it wasn’t for all the BS there wouldn’t be any prisoners they would just be shot. Have you talked to any military that have been over there?
I work with one that just came back from Baghdad. He worked as a Nurse in the hospital there. He was disgusted with the fact he had to help enemy combatants and US soldiers’ 1st come 1st serve bases. If an insurgent came in with a serious wound before an equally ingered American he had to help the insurgent. What would an insurgent do to a captured wounded US soldier? It’s one thing to have rules when both sides take part it’s another when only one side is expected to. We have a long way to go before we are to their level, but most people on this forum is routing for the insurgents and anyone anywhere that wants the US to fall.
Abu Ghraib wasn’t close to what Saddam did. I hear the Iraqis have been caught doing some of that stuff and are mad that we won’t let them do more. I say let them run the show. Do what needs to be done, because Saddam did and that was ok with the world.
Call it what you want, it's still wrong, and the soldiers involved deserve to be stood in front of a firing squad. I feel that way about a lot of people. Rape is about the only thing I think should be punished to be honest. Anything else in a war is a joke. Civilians have no place telling solders what they should do. I think the military should have its own legislative branch. Run by and elected by Veterans only.
If you are so unhappy why don't you look up how to make a bomb on Google. Then drive or walk up to a US military base gate and blow up? I say drive walking with a back pack might look suspicious.
Maybe in the past when they were in the grip of fervent nationalism... but at the moment aren't his approval ratings in the toilet? So they'd probably be mostly agreeing.. Well Iraq is the big thing with this. If we weren't in Iraq and doing as bad as the media makes it out to be. I would bet his rating would be way higher.
Frankly, I think before anyone around here starts bashing the US for being fascist, they should take a look at what fascism (
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That is the Electoral College job to decide when they think the people are wrong. Looks like they were right cause like you said he was elected the 2nd time.
Yes, because Gore was a better candidate than Kerry. But Gore won the people's vote, and that's the one that should count. We cannot have a true democracy if other people choose our President for us.
I could lose count of all the stuff you don’t need to know. The press is to the point where it puts Americans in danger if you ask me. Do you really need to know the names of CIA agents or US troop movements in war zones? If you are unhappy learn Arabic and tune into Al Jazeera. I’m sure they are more along your line of thinking.
No, we're not supposed to know the names of CIA agents. So tell Bush's cronies to stop leaking their names.
Islamic fundamentalism is funded and protected by Muslim countries. It is in their best interest to keep them fighting us. That way it isn’t their fault the people are suffering it is the USs.
Yeah, countries like Saudi Arabia. Perhaps we should invade them... wait, damn... they're our allies.
We have abandoned Afghanistan? I need to tell my old Unit they are alone.
When was the last time you heard ANYTHING from the White House or Congress regarding Afghanistan? I rarely ever hear about Afghanistan in the news, but when I do it's just to report the latest roadside bomb or helicopter crash. As far as I know, no progress. At least none getting reported, even by Faux News.
Are you the kind of person that needs to get beat? If so I would say don’t resist arrest that really ticks cops off..
Was that old man the kind of person who needs to get beat? No. Did he resist arrest? No. I see that really helped him not get the crap beaten out of him. And I see that AP reporter was really asking for it when he got thrown over a car and cursed at by an enraged cop. Also, trying to justify the beating of the man will fail, because those cops were already fired for their actions. I see they did nothing wrong eh?
If you have any proof that there were tortured informants please point it out for me.
I heard the story on MSNBC, but I can't find a link to it except on non-news websites which would likely be dismissed as not credible. But common sense tells you that when we send our prisoners over to other countries like Egypt, which uses torture, that they're not being sent over there because they can get a nicer room with cable.
How many terrorist attacks have there been in the US sense 9/11?
How many terrorist attacks have there been in Canada EVER? Clearly, they're doing something right. And they don't have to give up their civil liberties.
We do and we are that’s not the question and we have a long way to go before we aren’t.
Right, because a country that invades a defenseless country based on flawed intelligence and then allows it to fall into chaos is the best country on Earth. Screw the rest of the world, right? They hate us for our freedom, right?
Helpless prisoner pore pore helpless prisoner. If it wasn’t for all the BS there wouldn’t be any prisoners they would just be shot. Have you talked to any military that have been over there?
So I guess we should just line them all up and shoot them? What is the crime they have been convicted of and charged for? And if they're dead, how can we interrogate them?
I work with one that just came back from Baghdad. He worked as a Nurse in the hospital there. He was disgusted with the fact he had to help enemy combatants and US soldiers’ 1st come 1st serve bases. If an insurgent came in with a serious wound before an equally ingered American he had to help the insurgent. What would an insurgent do to a captured wounded US soldier?
American soldiers clearly should have priority over insurgents. I don't think anyone would dispute that.
Abu Ghraib wasn’t close to what Saddam did. I hear the Iraqis have been caught doing some of that stuff and are mad that we won’t let them do more. I say let them run the show. Do what needs to be done, because Saddam did and that was ok with the world.
I say we let the Iraqis take over guarding the prisons. It's their country, so we shouldn't be the ones in charge of their prisoners. If they abuse, the Iraqi government punishes them. That way we can't get blamed for letting abuse happen on our watch.
I feel that way about a lot of people. Rape is about the only thing I think should be punished to be honest. Anything else in a war is a joke. Civilians have no place telling solders what they should do. I think the military should have its own legislative branch. Run by and elected by Veterans only.
The American people need to have the say over the military, and unfortunantly, that means that the politicians in Washington have to have power in making military decisions. The President is commander-in-chief after all, and he's a civilian.
If you are so unhappy why don't you look up how to make a bomb on Google. Then drive or walk up to a US military base gate and blow up? I say drive walking with a back pack might look suspicious.
Sarcasm aside...
Yes, because Gore was a better candidate than Kerry. But Gore won the people's vote, and that's the one that should count. We cannot have a true democracy if other people choose our President for us. Yes but that the way it has always been….. I think they stopped teaching that far back in History..
No, we're not supposed to know the names of CIA agents. So tell Bush's cronies to stop leaking their names. Bush’s Cronies have their own agenda aside from Bush. I’m sure they didn’t think the journalists would be forced to tell her source. My question is why was it relevant that the journalist had to use the agent’s name.
Yeah, countries like Saudi Arabia. Perhaps we should invade them... wait, damn... they're our allies. Yep let’s just go globe trotting through the middle east and step on everyone’s toes. That will help us when we don’t even have land to stand on. There are places that can be changed more through political pressure and places that need a gun.
When was the last time you heard ANYTHING from the White House or Congress regarding Afghanistan? I rarely ever hear about Afghanistan in the news, but when I do it's just to report the latest roadside bomb or helicopter crash. As far as I know, no progress. At least none getting reported, even by Faux News. As far as I can tell the media doesn’t think anyone needs to know about good things. Like it or not we are still there. I don’t pay attention to Fox News. (unless I want to go on a Christian bashing fest) I don’t see why anyone would. I read the military news web sights.
Was that old man the kind of person who needs to get beat? No. Did he resist arrest? No. I see that really helped him not get the crap beaten out of him. And I see that AP reporter was really asking for it when he got thrown over a car and cursed at by an enraged cop. Also, trying to justify the beating of the man will fail, because those cops were already fired for their actions. I see they did nothing wrong eh? A cop where I live lost his job, because he shot an armed drug dealer after the guy stuck a gun in his face and robed him. As for the old man I wasn’t there were you? It’s hardly cause for giving cops less power.
I heard the story on MSNBC, but I can't find a link to it except on non-news websites which would likely be dismissed as not credible. But common sense tells you that when we send our prisoners over to other countries like Egypt, which uses torture, that they're not being sent over there because they can get a nicer room with cable. I don’t care about what’s going on now. I mean where does it say that we tortured people to get info on Iraq before the war?
How many terrorist attacks have there been in Canada EVER? Clearly, they're doing something right. And they don't have to give up their civil liberties. Given that after 9/11 there was an obvious gap with Canada do to the fact that it was a wonderful staging ground for terrorist to infiltrate the US. Why would they do anything in Canada that might jeopardize that?
Canada is dependent on the USA and our foreign policies. What we do affects them not the other way around. So if you want to kill a dog do you kill the tic first?
Right, because a country that invades a defenseless country based on flawed intelligence and then allows it to fall into chaos is the best country on Earth. Screw the rest of the world, right? They hate us for our freedom, right?
Defenseless country? I would say most nations in the world would be defenseless by our standards. I would argue it’s us as much as it is the Iraqis. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink.
So I guess we should just line them all up and shoot them? What is the crime they have been convicted of and charged for? And if they're dead, how can we interrogate them? Well you said line up soldiers and shoot them? I would say blowing up people is worse then idiots making a bunch of idiots pile on top of each other naked.
American soldiers clearly should have priority over insurgents. I don't think anyone would dispute that. I thought you wanted to line them up and shoot them?
I say we let the Iraqis take over guarding the prisons. It's their country, so we shouldn't be the ones in charge of their prisoners. If they abuse, the Iraqi government punishes them. That way we can't get blamed for letting abuse happen on our watch. Can’t argue with that.
The American people need to have the say over the military, and unfortunantly, that means that the politicians in Washington have to have power in making military decisions. The President is commander-in-chief after all, and he's a civilian. Why so when a politician and his corporate butt buddy get the ichin to make some money. They can justify a war the military has no say over and that they have to die for?
The president should be removed as Commander-in-chief he is a politician especially this one. Did you know while congress has to approve troops from all other services to be deployed the president w/o the approval of congress can send Marines. In the process start a war that congress may have to approve. It’s a very possible scenario. The Marines Corps amounts to the President’s personal mob sqd wither they like it or not. The American Presidents of today are no George Washington.
The military shouldn’t be able to go to war w/o the approval of congress, but also doesn’t have to go to war if it doesn’t deem it is necessary. I system like this might have prevented Iraq. Most military commanders didn’t think we had what we needed to do what we are doing in Iraq. One even had to step down, because of this or he just decided to retire depending on what you want to think.
The military is solely commanded by a group of people that will justify a war to make a few more bucks. The militaries only job should be defending the USA, its interests, and attacking when it’s necessary. Not taking a bullet in the head so some fat balled congressman (who screws his secretary) can send his pot smoking kid to Harvard.
Yes but that the way it has always been….. I think they stopped teaching that far back in History..
I say change it. The only reason they had the electoral college was because people were too ignorant back then to make a good choice. But in a world where information is exchanged around the world in an instant, people are well enough informed to make up their own mind.
My question is why was it relevant that the journalist had to use the agent’s name.
I guess they don't see the harm since she was already outed.
Yep let’s just go globe trotting through the middle east and step on everyone’s toes. That will help us when we don’t even have land to stand on. There are places that can be changed more through political pressure and places that need a gun.
I was being sarcastic there.
A cop where I live lost his job, because he shot an armed drug dealer after the guy stuck a gun in his face and robed him.
That doesn't seem like a problem with the police not having enough power. It sounds more like a problem with the police department that fired him. But you're right in this case.
As for the old man I wasn’t there were you? It’s hardly cause for giving cops less power.
I'm not saying police should have less power. I'm just not saying to give them more power.
I don’t care about what’s going on now. I mean where does it say that we tortured people to get info on Iraq before the war?
Like I said it was in an MSNBC report, but I couldn't find a link to it on their site.
Given that after 9/11 there was an obvious gap with Canada do to the fact that it was a wonderful staging ground for terrorist to infiltrate the US. Why would they do anything in Canada that might jeopardize that?
I'm not sure what you're saying here, but there's no evidence that Canada is harboring terrorists.
Canada is dependent on the USA and our foreign policies. What we do affects them not the other way around. So if you want to kill a dog do you kill the tic first?
The thing is, Canada isn't messing around in the Middle East. They didn't put their troops in Saudi Arabia. They aren't the biggest supporter or Israel. They didn't give aid to Saddam Hussein (at least as far as I know). And they didn't then put troops in Kuwait to fight against him. We did. And now we're paying the price for years of interfering in their affairs.
Defenseless country? I would say most nations in the world would be defenseless by our standards.
Defenseless in the sense that their military didn't even bother fighting us.
Well you said line up soldiers and shoot them? I would say blowing up people is worse then idiots making a bunch of idiots pile on top of each other naked.
I thought you wanted to line them up and shoot them?
Again I was being sarcastic. Most people who know me here would probably know that I'm not too fond of the death penalty.
The military shouldn’t be able to go to war w/o the approval of congress, but also doesn’t have to go to war if it doesn’t deem it is necessary.
That's actually a good idea and sounds much better than how things are currently run. That would offer a better system of checks-and-balances and separation of powers.
We need the ancient Chinese custom called the 'Mandate of Heaven' here in the US. I have a feeling Bush would do anything if you said god said it, he's a tool like that :p
Hell, paraphrased, even Thomas Jefferson agrees with me here (about the Mandate of Heaven thing, not the Bush being a tool part).
Here's some more examples of real fascism:
-Google censors searches to enter Chinese market (
http://www.cnn.com/2006/BUSINESS/01/25/google.china/index.html)
-Chinese gov't bans "Brokeback Mountain" (
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=147802006)
The last time I checked, nothing even near to that was going on in the US.
Haven't the Chinese realised yet that communism sucks? *Sigh*
^^^^
Communism is a great form of government for poorer countries, the whole of society is given a fair share and the entire country is the better for it. However, as a country grows , communism is just like any other government, it is corrupted and there are many people who are disenfranchised and s*** out of luck, but it's intensified because no one can make more money in a communist society. So, communism is not the problem, the leaders of the government are, as is the case with any form of government.
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the rest."
--Winston Churchhill
Well North Korea is a poor country... I see their communism is working well for them?? :confused:
^^^^
I don't know about you, but forcing your people to eat bark so you can make missiles is something I'd define as corruption. Although I did mean 'over time they grow corrupt', sorry if I wasn't clear, and Korea has been communist for a long time, if you'd even call them communist, as I'd call it a dictatorship.
I just don't see how communism can ever be helpful, even to poor countries. Communist governments are known for repression of their people, whether it be religious freedom or human rights. Perhaps socialism is better for poor countries, but capitalism is still the way to go.
Small point:
Calling China's human rights violations "fascist" isn't entirely accurate. Communism and Fascism are fairly dissimilar, EXCEPT in the fact that they both tend to be run by Totalitarian regimes.
True fascists tend be very anti-communist, and vice-versa.
It's really the Totalitarianism that's the real problem in all of these nations.
China could go free-market Capitalist tomorrow, and still be a restrictive Totalitarian regime.
Granted, it would be far more difficult to enforce, but it could be done...
Remember guys that in 1994 Bill Clinton tried to pass a bill that allowed searches without warrants because of a spy leak case that was going on?
http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200512200946.asp)
But no one ever complained about that because it was sort of necessary, hopefully people will cut Bush some slack but if he does abuse it or it stays for too long even in times of peace then we should take the patriot act away. I mean, listening in on phone calls with one person calling in seems less harsh than searching someone without a warrant.
Now I don't know the full details about that, but let's say that Clinton did authorize seaches without warrants: just because one President breaks the law and gets away with it, it makes it okay for others to do so? I'm not sure if that's the point you're trying to make, but it kinda sounds like it.
The point i'm trying to make is that maybe in certain cases a president must do certain acts to protect the people. I'm not sure how important it is in this case, but how come there wasn't so much heat about the same issue then?
Because it was abused in this case, hence the reason news networks use the term 'Bush's illegal wire tapping activities'.
Because we didn't know about it then?
You know, Bush always says that this program is only for people communicating with known al-Qaeda affiliates. Now, I'd like to know why that if we have the phone numbers of these people, why the hell aren't they hunting them down and dragging them into jail rather than listening to their phone calls?
That's one reason why I think this spying program is BS. If they truely knew where these people were calling from they could find them.
I have a friend who is half Iranian, his father is full Iranian, and whenever he called home or recieved calls from home the calls WERE monitored. My friend and his family are about as far from being terrorists as I am from being the president.
So that line about only communicating with known or suspected al-Qaeda is BS of the highest order.
I'm hardly an intelligence expert, but...
The idea that the terrorists that this type of monitoring might be aimed to catch are:
Dumb enough to use unencrypted public lines to numbers that U.S. forces might have already picked up in various raids on their camps and operatives;
AND dumb enough to never suspect that their calls to those numbers in America could possibly be intercepted;
AND also dumb enough to not speak in code about future attacks on those lines to give away their plans...
It's all kind of hard to swallow.
I have a friend who is half Iranian, his father is full Iranian, and whenever he called home or recieved calls from home the calls WERE monitored.
I'm wondering, how is it that someone could know they're being monitored? If a terrorist knows they're being monitored wouldn't that kind of ruin the whole point of the spying?
Very interesting question...
I'm wondering, how is it that someone could know they're being monitored? If a terrorist knows they're being monitored wouldn't that kind of ruin the whole point of the spying?
Well Isuppose they don't KNOW, but the calls took longer than normal to connect, and were preceeded by an unusual clicking noise that had never happened before. I suppose it could've just been phone company issues :dozey: