Hi...

I was trying to change some characters underwear, then I noticed that the edge of the mesh's model lose its smoothness even when importing and exporting, without any modeling.

Picture of the problem. (http://img457.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cand013dn.jpg)

I extracted the model using Kotor Tools, used MDLops to convert it to ascii, and imported only the model on Gmax. Am I doing something wrong? Is there a way to make it smooth again?

Thank you.

You may need to add a "smoothing group(s)" to your model. I'm not positive but conversion with MDLops removes any 'effect' added to the model tree...

You may want to give that a try :)

Thank you ChAiNz.2da,

I forgot to mention that this seam appears when there is a cut on the mesh (two vertices on the same place) and his body already has smooth group 1. I've tried to clear the smooth group of one leg, or add another group on some polygons of his leg, I can see the modifications on Gmax, but even on Gmax the seam doesn't dissapear and in the game there is no modification too. Any suggestion?

Thanks.

You haven't bychance rotated any of the vertices or a poly face connected to the vertices have you?

Whenever I tend to rotate, I have to be really careful as the lighting effect will want to "reflect" light off the poly face if it's rotated too far... giving the appearance of a darker hard edge (like your pic)...

I'm not sure how it may affect your model (or if it's even an option) but have you attempted to delete one of the offending vertices from the leg mesh (assuming it's a non-essential vertice)? Or does the second vertice connect to another portion of the model?

The model of Canderous, in the picture, I've just imported on Gmax and exported, I haven't touched any vertex.

There is another model that is heavily modified which have the same problem and looks even worse because the way I've modeled it, perhaps I can move some vertices to make it look better but I will still have the seam.

Picture with the problem (http://img492.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cand024zw.jpg)

The picture shows the model on Gmax (1.), I separated two vertices to show that both vertices are important to the model (2.), if I delete one vertex, faces of the leg around it are deleted too.

I tried to weld the two vertices to make one, it looks perfect on Gmax (3.), but the texture around the place I welded get messed on the game (4.), at first I thought that I could be able to fix it on texture painting but it is not a painting problem, I notice that I can only weld vertices that on the uvmap are on the same positions, otherwise it will shrink the texture between them and paint it around the vertices, so I need make a cut on the mesh... and then this problem of the seam appears.

I hope there is just a buttom or check box somewhere on NWNscript or MDLops that do the trick!

ahh, so you're shifting/slicing/dicing and julianning vertices on the leg as well then? (I was thinking it was just the undies)... hehehe..

if so, that may be the cause, especially if you're not re-doing the UVmapping for the model. Any tiny shift can have unwanted effects when it comes to model vs. UVmapping (at least for the KotOR series games)...

Until a more experienced modeler can come to the rescue (hint hint guys.. hehehe) I personally would assume it's a UVmapping problem. If there are any changes/movement/ etc. of vertices in your model.. it usually constitutes a re-do on the UV map. Also, since you're using GMAX (and not 3dsMAX) you don't get access to all the many kewl UV tools it offers. I'd almost swear there's a function in 3ds that allows the UV to change alongside the model .. but don't quote me...

Unfortunately, I can also realize with 3ds hefty price tag, that getting the prog also isn't an option to some :(

I'm at work ATM (those who know me, know this all too well :xp: ), but when I can get home and on my machine, I might have some better advice.

Hopefully we can get some other modelers in here to possibly come up with some ideas about the prob...

For now though, look into your UV map options.. or, if you haven't already, set your Canderous skin .tga as your material so you can better see how your changes to the vertices will affect your existing skin... sometimes it helps to see the changes as you go rather than having to re-load the game so often :)

Ok, let me see if I can explain better what happened...

It all started with Carth's model that I've made a real mess with the model, shifting/slicing/dicing and julianning all the vertices of his body, till it looked the way I wanted, assigned bone weight to the verteces to fix the movements of his body till I was happy with it, and then I've reopened his uvmap to paint it.

But while painting I saw a seam inside his legs and back of his arms (like in the Canderous legs), and there were no way to hide it by painting or moving the verteces of his uvmap. I tried to weld the verteces, it looked good on Gmax and in the game, but his texture on the spot I've weld appeared strange, as the picture 4 of canderous, and I couldn't remove it with painting or moving the verteces on the uvmap no matter what.

So I decided to check if it was a problem with Carth's model, because of all the mess I've done, or something else... so I extracted Canderous model from the game, imported on Gmax and exported back without any modeling... and the seam appeared too!

So my question is... this seam appears only with me... am I doing something wrong? Or it is some smooth information that is lost in the importing/exporting process? Can I put this information back? or I need to find another way to just hide it somehow?

Thank you very much for your patienceChAiNz.2da :D

Thank you very much for your patienceChAiNz.2da :D
Not a problem.. it's always a pleasure to help out :) (or at least try.. hehehe)..

Things are definitely getting clearer now... so you've actually gone through the trouble of adding bone weights and all that stuff.... wow... first off, let me be one of the first to say great job! Not alot of ppl out there that would go through that pain in the arse.. hehehe...

MDLops does have problems with animations, though I can't be positive it has problems with bodies/motion. Mainly in sabers and such (which as far as I know we still can't do??).. sorry, I've been gone for a month ;)

Your problem could lie therein, but for the life of me I can't see as to why animations would be messing with the mesh skin. I haven't messed around with bone weights enough to give you any honest advice... and the whole 'MDLops/animation' theory of mine is just that.. a theory (or wild guess rather).. but we have had problems in the past working with any type of animation.

Mainly the reason why we have so many reskins of armor, but nothing completely new. 1) Not many ppl want to mess with bones & weights, but 2) MDLops and animations don't play nice.

Don't get me wrong though, MDLops is a fantastic prog, it's just unfortunate that LA didn't "see the need" for giving us players/modders a toolset. CChargin has worked wonders, as have ALL of our toolmakers, but I'm sure deep down even they wouldn't have minded having (or at least knowing) what tools the devs used ;)

Don't give up hope though, I'm sure there's a way to do what you're wanting.. I unfortunately don't have the proper knowledge... like I said, I'm just 'guessing' about the animations part. For all I know it's completely possible :)

Its nothing that your doing wrong it is unfortunately mdlops fault, Atleast with my tests. The strange thing is that i've never noticed this before with body models. cchargin has said that the game will smooth the polys that are attached to each other so where ever vertices have been detached you will get an ugly seem, but it is a nessesary to detach the vertices when creating the UVmap to prevent the vertices in the UVmap from restitching. that is whats happening in your image 4. The verts from one side of the poly group are attaching to the verts on the other side of the poly group because on the mesh its self they are attached.

I hope that is somewhat clear, now as to fixing the seem only cchargin can help you with that since its something that mdlops is doing to the model.

Yes, it is clear. Thank you T7nowhere! As I'm new to Gmax and Kotor modding I thought I could be missing something before exporting the model. I'll see if I can place the seam on a more hidden spot for now.

Thank you both! :D

Hello all,

Here is more than you ever wanted to know about the internals of a kotor model. ;) If you were to peek into an .mdx you would see the data stored this way:

vertex x, vertex y, vertex z, normal x, normal y, normal z, texture u, texture v

As you can see geometry, shader, and texture information are stored together. This is why we have that annoying 1 to 1 relationship for geometry vertices and texture vertices. This one is kotors fault. If you want more texture verts you have to break vertices apart, which brings us to the next problem.

Since NWMax does not calculate normals for us and kotor can't compile models on the fly, MDLOps has to do the calculations. Right now MDLOps assumes that all polygons with welded vertices should be smoothed together. And of course all unwelded vertices will not be smoothed, even if they are in the same smooth group. This is my fault.

Now that I look at an ascii model output from NWMax It does appear that NWMax outputs smooth group information. I will have to see if I can use the smooth group info when calculating the vertex normals.

Hi Cchargin,

You have no idea how grateful I would be if you could add the smooth group information on the normal vertex calculation! :D
Hmmm....I think I'll wait before moving that seam then. ;)

Thank you.