Although getting rid of george bush is #1 reason for voting this year, there are other important items on the ballot.

this is 1:

Amendment 1 - Parental Notification of a Minor's Termination of Pregnancy

GRIFF IS VOTING A BIG FAT NO ON THIS ONE.



Pro Argument
Pro:
Mandatory parental notification encourages communication within the family and makes the family stronger.

Needed because the Supreme Court of Florida struck down a prior parental notification law on the grounds it violated a minor's right to privacy.

Would require the legislature to provide exceptions and create a procedure for judicial waiver of the notification.


Con Argument
Con:
Mandatory parental notification could endanger minors who avoid medical care because they are afraid to tell their parents they are pregnant -- especially girls who are the victims of incest or rape.

Judicial bypass provisions often inadequately protect minors. Going to the courthouse to ask a judge for an exception to the law is intimidating for adults. How much more so would it be for a teenager?

According to respected medical authorities, minors should ultimately be allowed to decide whether parental involvement is appropriate; a physician needs to respect the adolescent's personal decision and her legal right to continue or to terminate her pregnancy; and, the diagnosis should not be conveyed to others, including parents, until the patient's consent is obtained.

The state constitution gives Floridians greater privacy rights than the federal Constitution. The proposed change would limit those state privacy rights for girls under the age of 18. The role of the Constitution is to protect rights, not to restrict them for certain citizens. Right to privacy should have no exceptions.

GRIFF(AKA STEVE TRULL) IN THE NEWS: LINK (http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/101404/opl_16902977.shtml)

I think this parental notification thing is stupid. If kids want to let their parents in on their life they will. And making them get a parental notice won't stop it from happinging, they'll just go to back ally abortions in order to avoid their parents.

I am a parent of a female. When she is a teenager if she gets pregnant i am pretty sure she would tell me. I am raising her to have trust that I love her unconditionally and will always love her even if she gets pregnant.

My real concern are for those poor girls whose parents don't love them unconditionally. And may face reprisals for being truthful.

Or worse yet, If an underage girl were to be impregnated by a guardian, would you want her to get his permission before terminating the pregnancy?

Originally posted by griff38
If an underage girl were to be impregnated by a guardian, would you want her to get his permission before terminating the pregnancy? that's what I was thinking of.

NO! Like you say, most don't seek medical attention because they don't want their parents to know

These are MINORS we're discussing.

Therefore if I were in the US I would vote for this proposal to go through, but only if the police were also informed of the minor's pregnancy at the same time as the parents were informed. I'd also lobby for automatic testing to see who the father of the foetus is in these cases.

You cannot go around getting underage girls pregnant, whether you're an adult or a kid. ANYTHING that brings these things out into the open is welcome.

As for the risk of girls getting back-alley abortions because they don't want their parents to know... that's a legitimate concern and under the current social climate it would be a serious problem...

But unless the kids are victims of incest the parents/guardians SHOULD know, and it's about time society started teaching minors proper behaviour under such circumstances. Society should also teach parents how to behave under such circumstances. Enough of the culture of shame, the issue should be freely discussed in any household that has a young female in it.

If the kids ARE victims of incest, this should be investigated by the authorities. Hence the informing of the cops at the same time as the parents.

Well, shame my revised version of the law isn't on the ballot eh. ;)

Originally posted by Spider AL
the parents/guardians SHOULD know yes they should know, but we shouldn't force the girls to tell their parents.

If the girl is a minor below the age of 18, and she gets an abortion, the parents should be notified.

You say it's violation of a minor's privacy? Um.... they're minors. The parents are responsible for their children, and they should know what goes on in their children's life. There is obviously a reason why the girl got pregnant. Perhaps a police investigation is in order.

If the girl is 18 or older, she doesn't have to tell her parents jack.

Originally posted by griff38
Or worse yet, If an underage girl were to be impregnated by a guardian, would you want her to get his permission before terminating the pregnancy?

I don't remember reading that the girl had to get parental permission. It just said that the parents would be notified.

again, yes parents should know, especially if the girl is a minor, but we shouldn't force them to notify their parents. Should they tell them they're getting an abortion? yes, but should they be required to have a signed permission slip thing? no. There are lots of things that happen in our lives phreak, that we might not want our parents to know about, should they know about them, or some of them? sure. Should we be forced to tell them? no.

Don't get me wrong, I think abortion shouldn't be some form of contraceptive, only when certain unforseeable events occur be it rape, incest-rape, or broken condom/pill didn't work.


I just don't think it should be law that a girl has to get permission from her parents to get an abortion because the decision should be the girls and hers alone, not her parents. Should she notify her parents? **** yeah. Should we force her to? **** no.

the decision should be the girls and hers alone, not her parents.This I take issue with... It's a womans choice, not a minor's choice. Parents make these types of decisions for their children because children aren't able to make the decisions themselves in a mature fashion.

Though I believe that abortion should ALWAYS be used when the mother's a minor. No good can come of a minor having a child... neither to the minor's psychology, nor to the child's upbringing. Better to wait until adulthood.

I believe they indeed can make a mature decision. But it depends too much on the person. Then again, what would be the difference between an 18 year old's mind and the one of a 17 year old? Age limit is flawed.

If parents would stop looking at it as an awful shame, we wouldn't be having a problem.

I believe they indeed can make a mature decision. But it depends too much on the person. Then again, what would be the difference between an 18 year old's mind and the one of a 17 year old? Age limit is flawed.But a line has to be drawn somewhere. If we don't adhere to age limits for things like the smoking, drinking or voting, we open the door to very dark doings indeed.

Can you imagine George Bush election ads aimed at ten year olds? Booze marketed for pre-pubescents (as if it isn't already)...

Abortion is too big a decision to entrust to someone who isn't legally mature. Bad enough that adults have to make the choice, most of them are ignorant and immature as well... but they're all we've got.

If parents would stop looking at it as an awful shame, we wouldn't be having a problem.Agreed. They should merely decide whether to terminate or not (should be mandatory IMO) and then get on with the important work, that of comforting the child.

Well, that shouldn't be part of the law. I only agree to the parental notification. In the end, it's the girls' fetus, not her parents'.

But the fact that the girl was stupid enough to get pregnant in the first place...

Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak
But the fact that the girl was stupid enough to get pregnant in the first place...

Not only are there MANY instances where the girl ends up pregnant after being RAPED, there are also the instances where the girl did everything RIGHT in her decision to have sex, and was very safe about it, and things just went wrong.

I'm with Griff on this one. I too am the parent of a female and if my daughter doesn't feel comfortable informing me about a pregnancy and her desire to abort, then I've screwed up as a parent by not being there to begin with. I don't deserve to know.

I do, however, think that the legal "minor" should be required to meet with counselors about the issue who will discuss all aspects of it with the girl so she can make an informed decision.

But whether we like it or not, anyone female who is pregnant is a woman and no longer a child. Regardless of her age or legal definition of it.

If parents want to demonstrate concern for their children regarding pre-marital, adolescent sex, then they should begin by being better parents.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
Not only are there MANY instances where the girl ends up pregnant after being RAPED, there are also the instances where the girl did everything RIGHT in her decision to have sex, and was very safe about it, and things just went wrong.

Yes, but I'm sure there are more instances of it was just two horny teens having unprotected sex.

She may have made "the right decisions" and "done evrything right," but the risks are still there, and she continued with it.

but what if the girl wants the abortion, but the parents are some uppity religious type that says abortion is murder and they won't allow it?That's why I believe abortion should be mandatory if a minor becomes pregnant, especially if she was impregnated by an adult.

But whether we like it or not, anyone female who is pregnant is a woman and no longer a child. Regardless of her age or legal definition of it.That doesn't make any sense to me, Skin. Age and legal definition of the term "minor" are the only concrete factors we have to go on here, and a minor's a minor. A minor is not a woman. How is a minor a woman? Is a twelve-year-old girl impregnated by a rapist a woman? Must she give up her remaining childhood by caring for an unwanted baby?

Nahh.

I think abortion should be mandatory in such cases, parental notification and police investigation also mandatory. Wish I was making the laws. World'd be so much leeter.

but once she's impregnated (when you think about it, the very fact she's now capable of being pregnant dictates she's a woman by some standards) she is no longer a child, but a mother herself. I think we're all on the same page though that she should recieve an abortion if it's her wish, regardless of what her parents think.

I agree with skin that the girl should go see a counselor or therapist or something learn the pro's and con's of the situation then be able to make an informed decision.

but once she's impregnated (when you think about it, the very fact she's now capable of being pregnant dictates she's a woman by some standards) she is no longer a child, but a mother herself.Being a mother at twelve years old doesn't magically imbue one with any maturity. Personally I think that the standard you're referring to is an unhelpful throwback to ancient cultures in which fertility equalled adulthood. These days we seek (hopefully) to equate adulthood with mental maturity and therefore the experience of the years, not the ability to get oneself preggers.

I think we're all on the same page though that she should recieve an abortion if it's her wish, regardless of what her parents think.Absolutely agreed. I would add however that the foetus should be aborted if her parents think it should. This is the family the unwanted child will have to grow up in, after all. We must think of its quality of life-to-come. We should err on the side of abortion in these cases with minors, I feel.

I agree with skin that the girl should go see a counselor or therapist or something learn the pro's and con's of the situation then be able to make an informed decision.I don't think a child can be asked to make an informed decision, and an emotive one at that, based on whatever this therapist advises her to do. The hypothetical therapist has his or her own stance on the abortion issue no doubt.

Originally posted by Spider AL
These days we seek (hopefully) to equate adulthood with mental maturity well by that standard a lot of people in their 40's have yet to reach adulthood. <_<

I suppose you're right about the therapist thing, but they could always visity multiple people, that will give them information on this stuff. Mostly I just hate the idea that they want to make it more of a permission slip than an actual notification. I also don't think the government should force girls to inform their parents, I agree a 12 year old shouldn't have a child and I suppose then I'd really try to make them inform their parent, but I kind of draw at 16, it should be up to the girl.

I agree a 12 year old shouldn't have a child and I suppose then I'd really try to make them inform their parent, but I kind of draw at 16, it should be up to the girl.Well after 16, in the UK at least, they're legally regarded as a sexual adult (heterosexually), so it would be their choice in law.

I also don't think the government should force girls to inform their parents,Very unhealthy for a minor to keep a secret like that it is, mmm, yes... :yodac:

well by that standard a lot of people in their 40's have yet to reach adulthood.Sadly agreed, but the age limits are still the best solution we have at the present time... Individual psychoanalysis to determine maturity would be a little time-consuming. Even though there are enough goddamn shrinks around to do the job already. :D

Should you have to notify parents that you are pregnant? No. Oath of confidentiality applies because nobody is hurting or getting hurt, although the information is, to use "spy terms", "highly sensitive".;)

So let's say you think you might have gotten pregnant. Taking a test is bad enough, but knowing that notifying your parents is no longer your choice?

Should a minor, however, have to obtain permission for an abortion? Tricky question.

Being a mother at twelve years old doesn't magically imbue one with any maturity.
I highly doubt that 12 year olds can become pregnant. Unless infected by a hormone illness or something similar, it's unlikely that she's even gone into the advanced stages of puberty.

Well, forcing a kid to have an abortion is just too harsh. Why do people keep forgetting about orphanages and foster families? Geez, nowadays it seems it's only about pro-life and not pro-life.

Psychology isn't scientific
I have absolutely no idea as to where you have that from, but let me ensure you that you are completely wrong.

Actually, age 12 is around the beginning ages that girls are expected to begin their menstral cycle.
Ah, OK. My bad.

Parents have the right to know what their kids do regaurdless of what they will do or not.

Not allowing parents to know does nothing but ruin the family structure and degrade our very society.

Stop trying to derail the argument with your 'our society will go to pot' bull****. Not gonna happen. The greatest threat to the American society is from the religious nutters at the extreme right.