Probably too soon to ask, but does anyone know if the models and skins will be backwards compatible (or at least incredibly easy to convert)? like just change a few folder names around inside the .pk3 or something.
not that easily it sounds, but there may be a converter. I think Raven said in an interview that it should be reletivly easy, but since they skeletons are different between jo and ja, they wont work right out of the box.
You'd only have to reweight, redo hierarchy and export.
i have no idea what "reweighting" is, but tahnks. :p
looks like i will be able to convert it, i would just have to read a couple of tutorials
I seem to recall Raven saying that they'd release tools, that would alow skins/levels/ect. to be converted from JO to JA, shortly before JA comes out.
Originally posted by Gabrobot
I seem to recall Raven saying that they'd release tools, that would alow skins/levels/ect. to be converted from JO to JA, shortly before JA comes out.
Yes, that was, initially, the plan, but one of our programmers (Gil Gribb) decided to just make it so that Jedi Academy could load JK2 models, recognize they're from JK2 and automagically(tm) convert them to JA-usable models. So all downloadable player models from JK2 should work in JA!
Sabers should work too, plus modders will find they have much more control over adding lightsabers (using a new external data file for lightsabers - using the extention .sab, not unlike our .npc files for NPCs last game) and easier to add them to the game (it will find the .sab and automagically(tm) make them available in the menus).
:D
Whoa great :) Who needs converting??! Thanx for the update :thumbsup:
I wonder how easy it is to make a lightsaber, I'd like a montreal blue lightsaber :)
In that comic con report they did say that various npc's from JO could be spawned in JA SP, so that sounds right. Great news about the saber selection system - hopefully that's for SP as well.
Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]
Yes, that was, initially, the plan, but one of our programmers (Gil Gribb) decided to just make it so that Jedi Academy could load JK2 models, recognize they're from JK2 and automagically(tm) convert them to JA-usable models. So all downloadable player models from JK2 should work in JA!
Sabers should work too, plus modders will find they have much more control over adding lightsabers (using a new external data file for lightsabers - using the extention .sab, not unlike our .npc files for NPCs last game) and easier to add them to the game (it will find the .sab and automagically(tm) make them available in the menus).
:D
I've been working on an animation solution for JK2, which has recently included model rendering into it's reportoire - what are the key differences between JK2's implementation of Ghoul2, and JA's (specifically, the mdxa and mdxm formats)?
Will you guys please repeat the kindness of JK2, and release your model and animation file formats for JA? I've been gearring up my project in time for JA, mostly hoping there won't be too much more work to do for it (doesn't sound like there would be, I might not even have to do a JK2 and a JA version, just one release :D)
Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]
Yes, that was, initially, the plan, but one of our programmers (Gil Gribb) decided to just make it so that Jedi Academy could load JK2 models, recognize they're from JK2 and automagically(tm) convert them to JA-usable models. So all downloadable player models from JK2 should work in JA!
Sabers should work too, plus modders will find they have much more control over adding lightsabers (using a new external data file for lightsabers - using the extention .sab, not unlike our .npc files for NPCs last game) and easier to add them to the game (it will find the .sab and automagically(tm) make them available in the menus).
:D
Thanks for the info Mike. ; ) One question though, what about the maps made for JK2, how soon would we be able to port them over?
Originally posted by wudan
I've been working on an animation solution for JK2, which has recently included model rendering into it's reportoire - what are the key differences between JK2's implementation of Ghoul2, and JA's (specifically, the mdxa and mdxm formats)?
Will you guys please repeat the kindness of JK2, and release your model and animation file formats for JA? I've been gearring up my project in time for JA, mostly hoping there won't be too much more work to do for it (doesn't sound like there would be, I might not even have to do a JK2 and a JA version, just one release :D)
Actually, the format, itself, hasn't changed, but our skeleton did (different number of bones, stopped flattening the heirarchy). Do the format info we released last game should still apply.
Originally posted by The Truthful Liar
Thanks for the info Mike. ; ) One question though, what about the maps made for JK2, how soon would we be able to port them over?
They should load in JA just fine, I believe... :)
Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]
Actually, the format, itself, hasn't changed, but our skeleton did (different number of bones, stopped flattening the heirarchy). Do the format info we released last game should still apply.
Good thing I thought ahead :) I can load and render any JK2 .gla and .glm thrown at me :) My solution for your flattened hierarchy was some heavy math, so I think we'll be in the clear for JA.
I heard Hoekstra toss out the idea that you guys were working up an animation solution for JA, I'm curious as to what it is?
I've been working with new animations and new skeletons in JK2 for a while (actually since January 2003) and I can load them andmanipulate them in SP, but I cannot load them in MP. Although a mod team achieved that, I was wondering: will new animations/skeletons for JA be easier to implement? Or do we have to trick everything?
Thanks for finally start answering thisd questions =).
Sorry to bother you again with the question (I already asked you in General Editing, thanks for answering :) ) but is Raven considering releasing the SDK early so mod makers could make some content before JA is released?
Thanks in advance,
Commodus
Originally posted by CortoCG
I've been working with new animations and new skeletons in JK2 for a while (actually since January 2003) and I can load them andmanipulate them in SP, but I cannot load them in MP. Although a mod team achieved that, I was wondering: will new animations/skeletons for JA be easier to implement? Or do we have to trick everything?
Thanks for finally start answering thisd questions =).
I'm curious, how did you manage that? Did you make a whole new skeleton or were you somehow able to use our XSIs with yours and add the anims in, or somehow hack the .gla?
Originally posted by Commodus
Sorry to bother you again with the question (I already asked you in General Editing, thanks for answering :) ) but is Raven considering releasing the SDK early so mod makers could make some content before JA is released?
Thanks in advance,
Commodus
I don't know, James Monroe (Lead Programmer) will probably do that, but I imagine the timing is up to LucasArts?
Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]
I'm curious, how did you manage that? Did you make a whole new skeleton or were you somehow able to use our XSIs with yours and add the anims in, or somehow hack the .gla?
Corto has made his own animations using his own skeletons, which he was primarily interested in doing for his Dark Forces project. I have been successful in my attempts to 'hack' the .gla and I've been working on making a tool to edit the .gla (no one wants to do 17k frames on animation on a new skeleton just to match the old one)
Since you were curious, you might be interested in my proof of concept shot:
http://users.sisna.com/tokyopop/shot0005.jpg)
I had spent quite a bit of time writing a little console app to generate a .gla from an ASCII script (read: generate the frame, view in ModView, rinse, and repeat) and I used glaMerge by ASk to append it to the _humanoid.gla, and coded it in. Finally, proof, that new animations were indeed possible. (though the flat hierarchy threw me off for a long time)
http://users.sisna.com/tokyopop/construct3.jpg)
This is where I'm at today, making my own version of ModView that will eventually play animations and create animations, compile to .gla and whatnot.
As you can imagine, I'm pleased as punch that the file format hasn't changed (too much?) from JO.
Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]
I'm curious, how did you manage that? Did you make a whole new skeleton or were you somehow able to use our XSIs with yours and add the anims in, or somehow hack the .gla?
Hi Chang
We managed to get a few raw data files from a few of the guys at your place, Wudan has been working hard on the Code and trying to get new, and succeded, animations.
Im still trying to play with MilkShape, as James (Monro) kinda left me in the learch with not a lot to play with.
Please please please tell me that you will be doing for us modders who want to create new animation files :) I dont mind if I have to use XSI or 3DMax as long as I can get some new ones made!
Originally posted by Anakin
Hi Chang
We managed to get a few raw data files from a few of the guys at your place, Wudan has been working hard on the Code and trying to get new, and succeded, animations.
Im still trying to play with MilkShape, as James (Monro) kinda left me in the learch with not a lot to play with.
Please please please tell me that you will be doing for us modders who want to create new animation files :) I dont mind if I have to use XSI or 3DMax as long as I can get some new ones made!
(also RE: Wudan)
Interesting! I didn't realize you guys had made so much progress! That's great to see (obviously, I've been totally absorbed in making JA for the past year)! I'll discuss this with James.
This gla editor of yours, Wudan, sounds interesting, is there anything you need from us to help you get that working better? I can't promise anything since I'm not the skeleton expert, but I can ask around...
Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]
This gla editor of yours, Wudan, sounds interesting, is there anything you need from us to help you get that working better? I can't promise anything since I'm not the skeleton expert, but I can ask around...
Well, if you guys could somehow whip up some magic potion to give me some more time to work on it, and maybe some superior knowledge of how to code, I'd be grateful.
The WIP name of the tool is GlaNeo, though I'm currently gearring up for an actual App-Ish release (you know, like a real program), which means I have to create a usable interface (that's what UI stands for, right? :P), make it easy to use, and implement more and more features (which means I get to write my own 'bolton' function, and lightsaber rendering, woohoo)
It's a tedious process, especially when dev time is sparse. I've asked James and Ste for help in the past and they've always been good to me ('specially Ste).
If you guys could add a trap_g2something call to JA that allows me to specify a quat to multiply by a bones current quat, that'd be cool. For exampe, multiplying any quat/bone by a quat( w = 0, x = 0.5, y = 0.5, z = 0.5 ) would expand that bone and all it's children by 2x, and if you did it to the right bone, you'd have big-head jedis! w00t!
One thing that might be handy for the creation of total conversions is the format specs for the fontdat file, even though that doesn't really help me much in my project ...
I've had a lot of help from my friends I've met in the community - Tchouky, Trimbo, Corto, recombinant(formerly JediStone), Commodus (who has actually submitted a very crucial function, for IEEE-754 emulation), and lots of support for the project, though most folks have probably never heard of it. I did it mostly because people said it wasn't possible (to make new animations for the _humanoid skeleton.)
I'll let you guys know if I need anything ... other than time, and education.
Well, what I did is to create a new skeleton, for which I had to create a new gla file with new animations sequences, basic stuff, for testing purposes.
I wrote a new animations.cfg for that one model with a new skeleton, then named the sequences with the same names JO already has harcoded, but, pointing the frames to the part of the gla I wanted (or needed) to play.
Then I tried the new glm/gla combo with modview and it worked out fine. So I loaded the new model into the SP game (I know the glm looks for it's gla by itself). It was kind of funny to see the model using my new animation for every action (cuz I only made some basic crap to be sure that the engine was playing my animations for that model).
Soon after that Wudan started to work on the gla format and made some real progress on it, he showed us how he could add a new sequence to an already existant (compiled) gla.
Since then I've been providing him with whatever animator feedback I could give him to help him out, and, I must tell, he is a genius.
Now, my main problem is, I'm not interested in adding new anims to a gla file. I'm interested in creating new creatures with new skeletons and new animations. The main problem is that we (at the Dark Forces MOD) had to work with the MP code and, sadly, it doesn't load other gla than the _humanoid.gla file. I know that a mod team got the mp engine to load and play non humanoid gla files, like droids, the ATST or mine monsters.
I wanna know if, for JA, we'll have to code a new gla loader for MP (like th RPG MOD did), or will we have the SP code to work on, or at least a more flexible/editable MP code.
Thanks again.
Originally posted by CortoCG
Well, what I did is to create a new skeleton, for which I had to create a new gla file with new animations sequences, basic stuff, for testing purposes.
Impressive!
Originally posted by CortoCG
Now, my main problem is, I'm not interested in adding new anims to a gla file. I'm interested in creating new creatures with new skeletons and new animations. The main problem is that we (at the Dark Forces MOD) had to work with the MP code and, sadly, it doesn't load other gla than the _humanoid.gla file. I know that a mod team got the mp engine to load and play non humanoid gla files, like droids, the ATST or mine monsters.
I wanna know if, for JA, we'll have to code a new gla loader for MP (like th RPG MOD did), or will we have the SP code to work on, or at least a more flexible/editable MP code.
Is there any reason you didn't try your creatures in SP? All you need to do is make a .npc file for your new creature, which specifies the model directory to load its model from and you can then spawn it in-game (using the "npc spawn <npcname>" console command - you can also place them in the map using an NPC_spawner and setting the NPC_type to the name of your new NPC).
As for MP, since we now have NPCs in MP, it will load models that use non-humanoid skeletons (though not for players, only NPCs I think).
I did try everything on SP, I created and npc with my model. Actually that's how I found out that new animations and skeletons where possible and not a mere speculation or mith around the forums. Ppl started asking for tutorials and so.
But, bcuz the mod is being developed with the MP code, I found myself out of business with the new skeletons/anims project =(.
Now that you tell me that JA will support NPCs on MP I'm starting to drool on the things I'm planning to make. Also, wil ICARUS II be more advanced in the way of controlling NPCs behavior? Will our coders then be able to program new NPC classes or AI?
I know I'm making too many questions now, I'm sorry. But I'm getting really exited about the new features and capabilities of JA.
Is there any reason you didn't try your creatures in SP?
IIRC, he did get it working in SP. However our MOD is an SP game created with the MP engine (obviously, since we don't have the SP SDK (yet?)), so Corto and I discussed the possibility of enabling them in MP.
Since RPG-MOD was able to get alternate models loaded in MP, that gave us a ray of hope. Unfortunately they evidently don't do much, but that's a matter of coding some AI for the new creatures.
I'm interested to see how far we could take the Dark Forces MOD with the JA engine and tools straight out of the box...
recombinant, you might be interested in the new SP info on this thread:
http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106257)
Also, Chang, I'd like to see what you think of the ideas presented in this thread:
http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104564)
Originally posted by CortoCG
wil ICARUS II be more advanced in the way of controlling NPCs behavior? Will our coders then be able to program new NPC classes or AI?
Well, not every single ICARUS command is fully implemented in MP because quite a few of the commands are irrelevant/impossible in MP. And not all NPCs are in MP (mostly the JK2 entities as the port-over was done early on in the project).
But, the foundation is there, all the hard work is done, your coders should easily be able to take a look at how NPC AI is done and make their own NPC AI (or "creatively adapt" what's already in there... :) )
Great news Mr. Gummelt, thanks a lot :D .
Now on the modelling/animating side of the equation, what new tools for shaders and models will Raven release? Any new version of the carcass compiler? I've heard about rag doll physics, how will that affect the way we do our custom models or animations (personally, I've never interacted with ragdolls before)?
Ragdoll should be entirely independant of the models. I expect SoF2 level of "ragdoll" at least, if not true ragdoll. A lot of 2002 and 2003 games don't have ragdoll of any kind, and we've been without it for years. So at least SoF2 quality is a big relief.
Originally posted by Emon
Ragdoll should be entirely independant of the models. I expect SoF2 level of "ragdoll" at least, if not true ragdoll. A lot of 2002 and 2003 games don't have ragdoll of any kind, and we've been without it for years. So at least SoF2 quality is a big relief.
From what I've seen on the screens, the death animations of stormtroopers (or actually Snow Troopers) were normal animations, although it's hard to see in one single shot... I didn't even know the Q3 engine could handle ragdoll, although I must admit I'm not really an expert on these technical aspects...
It may be normal death animations and then ragdoll later. It could also be the basic ragdoll like SoF2, where it just stops limbs from clipping through surfaces, which is really nice.
The Quake III engine can handle anything. Raven isn't making a mod, they are making a whole new game. They have the engine's source code, they can do anything they want with it.
Originally posted by CortoCG
Great news Mr. Gummelt, thanks a lot :D .
Now on the modelling/animating side of the equation, what new tools for shaders and models will Raven release? Any new version of the carcass compiler? I've heard about rag doll physics, how will that affect the way we do our custom models or animations (personally, I've never interacted with ragdolls before)?
I imagine we'll be releasing everything we did last time. There have only been minor changes in the tools, actually. And the only thing we had to make for ragdoll (as far as building models) is just not flattening the bone heirarchy on the arms and legs when we carcass the skeleton. This shouldn't make a difference to people who are just making new models. If you're making new anims, I imagine wudan's tool should be capable of handling it (once he gets it working with JA's _humanoid.gla).
So there is ragdoll, hah haaa!
Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]
I imagine we'll be releasing everything we did last time. There have only been minor changes in the tools, actually. And the only thing we had to make for ragdoll (as far as building models) is just not flattening the bone heirarchy on the arms and legs when we carcass the skeleton. This shouldn't make a difference to people who are just making new models. If you're making new anims, I imagine wudan's tool should be capable of handling it (once he gets it working with JA's _humanoid.gla).
Not to soud rude Mike, but why cant you guys at Raven make the software, it was mentioned the last time when JO Editing tools were released and some one said, it will be in the 'next version' of the tools.
Wudan works very hard at the code, but I think it would be unfair if you guys couldnt help him out or the community out by making the tool yourselfs or with him.
I still think that XSI was a good idea, but giving us the data files and telling us that is the files go 'figure it out' on how to make new animations was a litlle unfair. I hate to rant Mike :p as you know but this was one of the things I was trying so hard to get the community into editing animation just like we did with Dark Forces 2, ahhh memories of Spork... anyhow, again thanks for keeping us posted I just hope that everything will come together and JK:JA editing community will keeping on going for a lot longer :)
I believe James attempted to change the source animation data in 3ds max 4, and it failed, so they didn't see a reason to release it, because not many people have the proper version of XSI. Some have said 1.5x is what you need, but I swear someone at Raven saying you must have 2.x, and it's really expensive, and not easy to obtain otherwise...
However, 3ds max 5 is out now... what are the chances of it working in there? I use 5.1, and it's rather different from 4.2.
Also, I do believe Mike offered to help wudan should he request it.
I don't think it's really fair to put undue pressure on Raven, they are limited in what they can do for JA by several factors out of their control.
Unfortunately, this does put the pressure on me, a teency bit. However, I don't think that'll be a problem, there are more than enough capable people to take over this work and drag it across the finish line in case I'm not going fast enough.
That might happen, I'm going back to school full-time so that someday I might work at a company like Raven, where it is rumored they play paintball on the weekends, but don't let it get you down, eh?
Finally, Raven could not have possibly just 'whipped out' something like a Gla Editing tool, primarily because Raven doesn't edit the Gla directly, at all. It is, as Ste Cork pointed out to me, an end-result format - it is an XSI file, compiled to .gla.
They've always been nice to me, but then again, I haven't been spamming them with requests for information. The rest isn't Raven, it's up to me and whoever will help out to figure the functions and algorythms.
Originally posted by Anakin
Not to soud rude Mike, but why cant you guys at Raven make the software, it was mentioned the last time when JO Editing tools were released and some one said, it will be in the 'next version' of the tools.
I think I can reply that: cuz you're not paying them to do so. That's why we modders/modifiers exists. That's why Wudan is working so hard on his animation/rendering program.
Personally I like the 'go figure' basis on which we usually work when making a mod. That's what seperates men from boys :). If Raven gives us every little thing we could possibly need to make a mod it wouldn't be fun at all. Actually I liked a lot when I found out by myself how to compile new gla files and see the npc fooling around with the anims I did.
Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]
If you're making new anims, I imagine wudan's tool should be capable of handling it (once he gets it working with JA's _humanoid.gla).
Although I'm helping Wudan out on everything I can with modelling and animating feedback for his upcoming program, as an advisor mostly (I don't know anything about programing on C) I hope I can rely on 3ds max 5 to make new animations :). But I guess I'll find out about my chances of having new animations and creatures on the mod when the game's sdk comes out.
Originally posted by Anakin
Not to soud rude Mike, but why cant you guys at Raven make the software, it was mentioned the last time when JO Editing tools were released and some one said, it will be in the 'next version' of the tools.
Wudan works very hard at the code, but I think it would be unfair if you guys couldnt help him out or the community out by making the tool yourselfs or with him.
I still think that XSI was a good idea, but giving us the data files and telling us that is the files go 'figure it out' on how to make new animations was a litlle unfair. I hate to rant Mike :p as you know but this was one of the things I was trying so hard to get the community into editing animation just like we did with Dark Forces 2, ahhh memories of Spork... anyhow, again thanks for keeping us posted I just hope that everything will come together and JK:JA editing community will keeping on going for a lot longer :)
Look, Raven have done more than enough for us. Don't forget that some games cannot be modified - MOHAA doesn't have an SDK; for C&C: Red Alert 2, all you could do is play with black-or-white flags; and C&C: Renegade was virtually uneditable as well. If you say Raven are unfair, go ask the people at AWD who modified Red Alert 2 and could not move a lot in any particular direction. If you think Raven are rude, go ask the people who modded Renegade, who were promised a fully moddable game with a diverse SDK but instead got a powerless skin and model plugin and a pathetic map editor plugin for GMAX. JK2 modding is very versatile in comparison to other games.
Also, you say "Wudan works very hard at the code, but I think it would be unfair if you guys couldnt help him out or the community out by making the tool yourselfs or with him.". Well, I think it's unfair if you sit back and ask a company who is otherwise busy with 3 projects to do something for you when they've already done so much. Instead of sitting back, watching Wudan slave on with Neo and complaining to Raven, pick up a book on OpenGL or C, learn something and see how you can help.
In every way, it's true, but I don't like to toot my own horn too much (pay no attention to the blaring self-promotional signature pic), but before JK2 modding, I'd never written a line of code, and before Neo, I'd never tried to dev an app before. In my mind, all I really need is the option to ask Raven for some extra info, if it'll help when I get stuck. Without their support, none of this would exist and we'd play what they gave us to play (which, while enjoyable, eventually certain like-minded folks want to tinker with the building blocks of the universe.
I certainly am appreciative of the support Raven has offered, I know that I have learned a great deal because of this ordeal.
Essentially, everyone is born knowing nothing, but needing everything. At some point, you have to stop asking and start doing.
Actually, RA2 is suprisingly moddable for just those INIs and stuff... A guy named DeeZire (
http://deezire.net) makes a great mod for Tiberian Sun, Red Alert 2 and Generals.
But anyway, Wudan, I still want to help on GlaNeo, but last I checked you seemed to be having no problems. Please, let me know if I can help, I'm a perfectly able programmer.
Originally posted by Emon
But anyway, Wudan, I still want to help on GlaNeo, but last I checked you seemed to be having no problems. Please, let me know if I can help, I'm a perfectly able programmer.
That'd be awesome, I'd certainly appreciate the help - I get stuck a lot, or ask n00b C questions frequently, over in the #jk2coding channel on quakenet.
Looks like Corto started an argue once again. Way to go man...
Errr, wait, that would be me... Doh! Dumbass, how many times do I have to tell you, never write what you think :D.
Stick to the subject matter and questions please, don't go off on other people. All of you.
Yeah boss, we are sorry =).
Originally posted by Emon
Actually, RA2 is suprisingly moddable for just those INIs and stuff... A guy named DeeZire (
http://deezire.net) makes a great mod for Tiberian Sun, Red Alert 2 and Generals.
I agree that you can do some stuff, but a good portion of the really innovative stuff, the things that leave you breathless like DeeZire's Chrono Prison was done through hacking and work-arounds. However, certain things are hardcoded into the .exe (e.g. there is a fixed number of superweapons, units coded as aircraft cannot attack other aircraft, there is a fixed number of countries, there can only be one IFV-type vehicle, etc.) and they are either impossible to "code" or require some complicated hacking and long-winded work arounds. Really, the stuff that you add will be quite similar to the units already there - nothing particularly revolutionary.
To be honest guys I was kinda dissapointed with Raven's lack of support, I have had a hell of a lot of help from the guys down there, I was hoping that when I started on the Animation pluggins over 8 months ago I was hoping for more help, Wudan has had the help and I didnt get any. At the end of the day I have had to learn everything from scratch I have XSI from 1.0 to the current version, and I could of animated anything I just needed the compliler for the glm files. Once I could export things from XSI to Game I was then able to attack things like Milkshape for the community. I didnt mean to rant and scream to much I just put a lot of time into everything and I just never saw much help from a few people at Raven and it just annoyed me a bit.
Again Wudan has out done himself anyhow, with this new software looking more and more likely to assist us in the animation process I can get on with what Im trained in and get into my mates 3D Motion Capture studio :)
Talking about support from Raven....don't get me started on it.
I had a hard enough time getting glaMerge to work without proper data to try it on (yes, merging 2 _humanoid.gla files IS getting redundant at some point, not to mention that it takes quite a bit of time, if you want to make a file without any redundant data in it)
And the skeletons that we had, they had a different bone structure...face bone anyone?
We asked you guys if you can send us the xsi skeleton you used to create animations. You did. It was the exact skeleton that was in the SDK, of course missing bones.
I certainly hope that future support will improve, right now I can only give it 2 stars out of 5.